[Closed] Possible can of worms - religion in schools

I'm not sure that the assumption that those who embrace religion have abandonned their rational senses is necessarily right. Some would surely argue that there is plenty of evidence which leads them to a rational conclusion that there probably IS a God... I think there's probably value in exploring this within an educational context.

SB, I agree. I am a Christian but I haven't abandoned logical thinking. In fact, logic brought me to the point where I realized that giving my life to God was something I had to do, the best option. It wasn't a decsion based on emotion or pursuasion but a simple reaction to facts that had been presented to me. I have a degree in Geography as well as loads of other academic stuidies but I believe in the bible. The two don't clash to me.

Don't knock it till you tried it. 😀

Show me proof God doesn't exist.

You prove to me why the Invisible Pink Unicorn and the Flying Spaghetti Monster don't exist and let me know how you worked it out. I'll most probably use the same argument...

(hint: you cannot prove a negative)

Why not?

Why 'why not'?

Oh, so because an Atheist says so, that's that, is it?

Nah. You made the positive statment: "Why does the universe exist?". It is for you to prove that there is a 'why'. I'll sit here with a nice book (Alexander McCall Smith at the mo). Tap me on the shoulder when you are ready.

We had this a few weeks ago. Interestingly, like then, it's the Atheists that are being the most vociferous. Like, somehow, that shouting louder is going to make them more right...

Nah, it is the wheedly ones who think they have a privileged belief that can never be scrutinised and yet want to tell everyone else how to live based upon it...

You trolling again RudeBoy?

Not at all.

I find some of the arguments for, and against, God, quite interesting. I have my own beliefs, and try to respect others. I don't really think people suggesting that those who chose to follow a religion are in any way of lesser intelligence very constructive, tbh.

For you, God does not exist. Fine. This does not mean God does not exist entirely, however; it is merely your belief.

And if Atheists 'know' they are 'right', why do they seem as zealous at proving their conviction, as those they seek to discredit? Why not just ignore those who chose to believe in God?

Who really knows? None of us.

Is there Life in far distant Galaxies? Possibly.

Is there a God?

Maybe just too abstract a concept for the particularly logically minded to grasp...

Some would surely argue that there is plenty of evidence which leads them to a rational conclusion that there probably IS a God... I think there's probably value in exploring this within an educational context.

Who are these "some" can you name them? Can you or "them" identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence that would justify a single moment of our childrens finite school curriculum to its study.
You flatter yourself that beleif in fairy stories has some measurable academic benefit.

but a simple reaction to facts that had been presented to me

What are these facts? Are you in possession of facts. I think you owe it to your fellow believers to show them the evidence they have craved for years.

For you, God does not exist. Fine. This does not mean God does not exist entirely, however; it is merely your belief.

And if Atheists 'know' they are 'right', why do they seem as zealous at proving their conviction, as those they seek to discredit? Why not just ignore those who chose to believe in God?

If god exists surely he exists for everyone and not just some?

Atheists have become more outspoken recently given the rise in good works published by Harris, Hitchins, Dawkins et al. These authors amongst others have managed to focus the atheist position.
Believers are always keen to preach "live and let live" however whilst your ideas are inoffensive to atheists, your beliefs ability to divert finite resources, dicate national and international policy and stifle life saving medical research is a danger to humanity.
Atheists should make no apologies for being vocal in spite of you wanting them too keep quiet.
Atheists provide life saving voluntary medical care without preaching dangerous untruths about contraception unlike their religous conterparts.

Can you or "them" identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence that would justify a single moment of our childrens finite school curriculum to its study.

Could you identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence for the concepts of love or justice?

The main thing I have a problem with is the idea of [b][i]worship[/i][/b].

I don't give a flying fish whether or not there is a god (I personally believe there isn't), but the idea that something which was capable of catapulting the universe into existence is hard to comprehend. This should be discussed in schools.

What's harder to comprehend is that this thing expects us to bow down before it and mumble how wonderful we think it is. Does that not strike any of the religious people here as odd? That god is so insecure that he/she/it needs reminding that it is a god and that we're still here?

I don't think teaching R.E. does any harm. I didn't to me, and I'm not religious.

I was in my R.E. lessons about 15 years ago, and at the time, I'm pretty sure everyone in the class had made up their own mind on the matter. Most the kids just thought it was a doss anyway and didn't really care. I don't suspect that has changed 🙂

I don't know what they teach now though, do they put more emphasis on other religions?

Anyway, like I said, it doesn't do any harm, and is probably something I should have taken more seriously given the state of the world today. It's a fairly interesting topic.

[i]What's harder to comprehend is that this thing expects us to bow down before it and mumble how wonderful we think it is. Does that not strike any of the religious people here as odd? That god is so insecure that he/she/it needs reminding that it is a god and that we're still here? [/i]

Exactly. I can't believe that an all-loving, all-knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent God would need his ego polishing by some minor life forms on a minor planet in a minor galaxy

I'm pretty irritated that my child's school is visited by the xxx (read town) "assembly team". It serves no useful purpose.
There are more Jedi Knights in the UK than there are Roman Catholics. haha..

Hey, as a Christian myself I thought I'd chip in here... Why would we not want our Children to hear bible stories? the bible teaches so many positive things like treating other people as you want to be treated yourself, to respect one another and show kindness, values that we all appreciate. I know parents who send their children to sunday school despite not being believers themselves as they know the bible has a positive influence on them.

As for the comments on worship, God doesn't need His ego polishing, He created mankind for friendship, it was always His plan to create a world that He loved and who would Love him back. One of the greatest acts of kindness ever known was God coming to this earth and dying in our place that this friendship with God could be restored. "For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Blummin heck, this has got very serious.

To all you non-believers, jedi's, intellectuals, agnostics and every thing else, God really, really loves you.

Sorry if this upsets you, or offends your beliefs, but He really loves you.

I work in a high school and the daily act of worship is a mumbled prayer read from a book, this aint gonna win anyone for God so don't worry about your kids, they are safe.

I became a Christian out of a alchohol and bmx fueled lifestyle, He met me where I was, in a mess, forgave me and set me back on my feet, He has helped me on the way and walked with me through everything.

I need no proof, or reason, just faith.

I would rather trust the creation of the universe to something rather than nothing.

Oh well, let the onslaught continue.

Did I mention God loves you?

Ah, Philamon, you beat me to it!

Atheism is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby

I may adopt this phrase and pretend it's my own :o) Actually I've abandoned atheism to replace it with pantheistic indifference. It's basically the same but less dogmatic...

Crikey ... I can't read all the page now but will tomorrow if I have time.

WTF! Leave religion at home.

😯

Atheism is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. It needs no teaching

This is genius!!
Also a daily act of worship surely cannot be the law as if it is either the schools I've worked at are breaking it or I really havent been concentrating on what goes on in assemblies.

I work in a high school and the daily act of worship is a mumbled prayer read from a book, this aint gonna win anyone for God so don't worry about your kids, they are safe.

But surely, and this is a confirmed atheist speaking, thats worse if its something you really believe in not being done properly? Its why I avoid churches as much as possible, I dont want to do someting in a half arsed manner as I see that as offensive to the religion and while the god or whatever doesnt exist the religion most certainly does. I hate going to weddings in churches for example.

In the Old Testament, the story of Noah, God was not happy with all creatures in the World. God instructed Noah to round up a breeding pair of each speccies. They were all loaded on to the big wooden boat and then God flooded the planet to kill every remaining living creature. Reasonable!

Also in the old testament God was said to enjoy the smell of burning live animals. Seems offensive doesn't it? The word tyrant comes to mind!

What about the meting out of divine justice;

Were all the poor people who perished in Australia bad? Surely God wouldn't allow this because apparently, some people say he cares about us all!

The only person to ever survive rabbies contracted the disease in a Roman Catholic church. A bat swooped several times on the congregation and was eventually knocked to the floor. The little girl wanted to help the stunned creature and kindly carried it outside whereupon it bit her. Why wasn't God watching over her? The girl was just a child trying to be kind in helping one of his small traumatised creatures!

There are billions of other cases of human suffering visited upon good decent people. God is supposed to be all seeing all knowing. Especially according to the mad evangelists that drain gullible people's bank accounts across large swathes of the USA. What a load of tosh! There is nobody watching over you except your loved ones and friends.

The claim by believers is that if you have faith in the existence of a God, he really must be real. Applying such logic would mean that the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas are also real!

Religion instills many good values. It is a tool of control. It passifies and comforts people. But what about those who dare to think freely, who choose to reject religious beliefs? In some parts of the world, such people are killed! Lucky we are allowed to think and speak freely in this country!

Religion causes more conflict in the world than anything else due to it's divisve nature. A better world would be one where people find what they have in commone, not what they don't.

Do we need religion to learn good morals and live a decent life? Of course we don't!

I may adopt this phrase and pretend it's my own :o) Actually I've abandoned atheism to replace it with pantheistic indifference. It's basically the same but less dogmatic...

The only time I've ever agreed with SFB!

beefy - Member

Blummin heck, this has got very serious.

To all you non-believers, jedi's, intellectuals, agnostics and every thing else, God really, really loves you.

Sorry if this upsets you, or offends your beliefs, but He really loves you.

I work in a high school and the daily act of worship is a mumbled prayer read from a book, this aint gonna win anyone for God so don't worry about your kids, they are safe.

I became a Christian out of a alchohol and bmx fueled lifestyle, He met me where I was, in a mess, forgave me and set me back on my feet, He has helped me on the way and walked with me through everything.

I need no proof, or reason, just faith.

I would rather trust the creation of the universe to something rather than nothing.

Oh well, let the onslaught continue.

Did I mention God loves you?

This post makes me feel like weeping for every life lead in scientific pursuit, for the enlightenment of ordinary people.

I mean, FFS...

Atheists should make no apologies for being vocal in spite of you wanting them too keep quiet.

Where, tell me, did I say I wanted Atheists to keep quiet???

I just don't think Atheists have points, views or opinions that are any more or less valid than religious people. All seem to think that their views and opinions are more righteous than anyone else, who can really say who is right or wrong?

All seem to think that their views and opinions are more righteous than anyone else, who can really say who is right or wrong?

Would you like to be tried for a crime on that basis? Or have evidence, argument and counter-argument presented until a logical conclusion was reached?

❓

Too late, too tired, can't be bothered, tbh.

Night!

And God Bless...

X

All seem to think that their views and opinions are more righteous than anyone else

I don't, I just please myself. As for right and wrong, I claim indifference. I don't care what any external agency says is right or wrong, I reserve the right to choose that for myself. However many gods there may be, I can't see why I am obliged to take any notice of them, any more than they appear to notice me.

Ha!

[:?:]

Too late, too tired, can't be bothered, tbh.

Night!

And God Bless...

I'd post something along the lines of '**** it, I can't be arsed to think of a comeback' but I'm too tired.

😉

isn't arguing more important than sleeping ? I was up till 4am yesterday just working on photos 🙂

Simon the stamp collecting quote is not mine, it may have been Daniel Dennet.

Why would we not want our Children to hear bible stories? the bible teaches so many positive things like treating other people as you want to be treated yourself, to respect one another and show kindness, values that we all appreciate. I know parents who send their children to sunday school despite not being believers themselves as they know the bible has a positive influence on them

Phil, you are clearly trolling. The Golden rule can be distilled into a single sentence. Other religions have done this without preaching of genocide, jealousy, child murder, slave keeping, homophobia and mysogony.
Which book are you reading?

My daughter attends an ordinary comprehensive school and told me recently that in RE they did a 'survey' of class beliefs and, out of a class of 28 children, there were only 2 Christians. Even as an atheist, I was (pleasantly) surprised by this.

Goon

This post makes me feel like weeping for every life lead in scientific pursuit, for the enlightenment of ordinary people.

I thought it was too simple for some people on here who are "free" thinkers, does it help that I am currently studying a degree in physics and doing quite well, (96% in last assignment)?

At the end of life, we will all be proved either right or wrong, if I am wrong then I have lead a life of fun, of belief that stops me fretting about stuff, of fellowship with many people (my church has about 700 members, it is lively, full of joy and a great place to be) and we will have all had an argument for nothing.

If you are wrong then the consequences are pretty bad.

I also agree that with the post from anagallis_arvensis, if belief in God results in half hearted rubbish then this drives me crazy, if you believe in something then you should follow it whole heartedly. I find most church services lacking any sort of commitment, that is why I go to Huddersfield Christian Fellowship (Google it), we have just got a new purpose built building with a 2000 people capacity and loads more. It is full of some insanely intellegent people, they can't all be wrong can they?

Without a personal encounter of the supernatural realm, it is hard to believe.

I am convinced because I have experienced things which have convinced me.

I can't argue about it really.

If you are wrong then the consequences are pretty bad.

Ah that old chestnut.

I haven't got enough life/time to believe in [b]every[/b] G/god(s) just on the off-chance that one of them could be right. What if it is a non-theistic religion (e.g. Buddhism) that is right and I should spend all my time meditating - on the off-chance? There are so many religions out there I don't know about. Some with loads of gods, some with one.

Just imagine, you die and "arrive" somewhere where a big booming voice says "do you believe in the Lord God Squidgy and his faithful doodlebug Janet?", as only worshipped on Zaxylat 5 in the Andromeda galaxy?

To me I use the word 'atheist' in that while there is philosophical doubt about all god(s) they are all equally possible. The Christian god is no more probable than Zeus, Apollo, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the aforementioned Squidgy. Call me agnostic if you want to, but I'm as agnostic about the Christian/Muslim/Jewish (etc, etc) god as Christians are about the Flying Spaghetti Monster...

I cannot disprove god/s. To those who say that god/s definitely exist I only have one question:

[i]Please prove it and then I'll believe.[/i]

Im convinced because I have experienced things which have convinced me.

Out of interest, what things?

Sadly I haven't experienced anything in this life yet to make me belief. Was you a believer before these things happened?

I think I'm the type of person that can only believe in something if there is scientific proof, or I see it with my own eyes.

[i]the bible teaches so many positive things like treating other people as you want to be treated yourself, to respect one another and show kindness, values that we all appreciate[/i]

Which is great but why do so many people who adopt religion seem to ignore these ideals and so often completely fly in the opposite direction? I appreciate that presumably the vast majority of people who've found religion aren't this way but it's hard to ignore sometimes. For example, the 'fish on the boot - driver doesn't indicate' joke is well known for good reason.

My sister in law was in a born again christian church for quite some time. They were to a man, the nastiest group of characters I have ever met. Proper contemptible sneering at everyone who wasn't exactly like them. So many of the christians at my son's school church were deceitful backstabbing bastards who were in it for one person only. I've not had huge dealings with church people outside these two arenas (apart from the local church my wife attended where they threatened her when she turned up with my son because they thought she was a single mum), so my perception may be a little skewed but it's not looking good so far.

[i]Just imagine, you die and "arrive" somewhere where a big booming voice says "do you believe in the Lord God Squidgy and his faithful doodlebug Janet?", as only worshipped on Zaxylat 5 in the Andromeda galaxy?[/i]

Precisely, and if so, that would be the action of a very unfair and unjust god, not what each and every religion proports god to be.

Lets assume for a moment there is a god. When you get to the pearly gates ready for judgement, do you get judged on how much time you've spent on your knees mumbling prayers or by how good a person you are inside? As above, if it's the latter than no amount of church time is going to save my sister in law, she's an evil ****er and should go straight to hell.

[i]If you are wrong then the consequences are pretty bad[/i]
I thought you said god really loves me?

I thought you said god really loves me?

Go for the death bed conversion, just to be on the safe side 😉

It's not as bad as the enforcement of Green dogma that's just caused the burning to death of over 300 people in Oz.

I think a lot of the time opinions about Christianity are actually quite subjective and more to do with negative personal experiences of the church or harsh, poe-faced, 'Christians' rather than an objective reflection on what the bible actually says. In some cases quite strong opinions can be expressed by those who haven't actually ever read it which doesn't seem a particularly objective or rational approach.

For atheists, Richard Dawkins is their prophet and The God Delusion is their Bible.

Discuss.

My partner is head of BPE (beliefs, philosophy and ethics)at a large secondary school. She teaches about faith and the philosophy of religion without favouring any particular one. It seems to be well received and she gets some good A level results. Apparently, quite a lot of 'RE' teachers are not religious. Taught properly, it encourages thought about important subjects. She is of the opinion (me too) that faith schools should not be part of the state system and that there should be no seperate assemblies for anyone. As an aside, when I went to a state Grammar school 30-odd years ago, I was allowed to stand outside the assembly for the religious bit as an atheist, along with a few Hindus, Jews and others. The head was an atheist.

[i]rather than an objective reflection on what the bible actually says. In some cases quite strong opinions can be expressed by those who haven't actually ever read it which doesn't seem a particularly objective or rational approach. [/i]

'Objectively' what would be your opinion of say leviticus as the word of god?

For atheists, Richard Dawkins is their prophet and The God Delusion is their Bible.

Discuss.

That old hoary chestnut. Richard Dawkins is just vocal and his opinions are his own. Whether I agree with them or not is a moot point; he doesn't speak for me. You're attempting to lump everyone together under a target that can be attacked in order to smear everyone with similar beliefs, usually used as a last-ditch attempt to move the focus away.

The God Delusion is a book. Just a book. Same as the bible is a book. Just a book. Get over yourself!

I think a lot of the time opinions about Christianity are actually quite subjective and more to do with negative personal experiences of the church or harsh, poe-faced, 'Christians' rather than an objective reflection on what the bible actually says. In some cases quite strong opinions can be expressed by those who haven't actually ever read it which doesn't seem a particularly objective or rational approach.

I know two CofE vicars called David. One believes the entire Bible to be literally true, the other that all of it is allegorical and must be interpreted within the historical context in which it was written.

Both are very clever men, both are ordained ministers in the CofE.

I'm not sure that my reading the Bible cover to cover would enable me to interpret it any better than David or David.

There's certainly some interesting debate going on around the Dawkins hypothesis with some responses being published. Here's one example...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dawkins-Delusion-Atheist-Fundamentalism-Denial/dp/0281059276/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234346402&sr=1-2

For atheists, Richard Dawkins is their prophet and The God Delusion is their Bible.

Discuss.

No becasuse I will be labled an illberal ranting atheist.

Dawkins has some good points and has allowed people to stand up as atheists (not easy belive me!) and make people question things. Questioning stuff is what makes humans great.

SSP

You're attempting to lump everyone together under a target that can be attacked in order to smear everyone with similar beliefs

I was actually only making a joke, but I like your point. It could be said that many people on here are doing exactly that about Christians…

Dawkins has some good points and has allowed people to stand up as atheists (not easy belive me!)

Is it hard to be an atheist? I would be very comfortable announcing that I was an atheist pretty much anywhere (apart from it not really being true). I would find it much harder to state that I was a Christian.

SSP - "Close-minded, illiberal, ranting atheist" was not aimed at you, or at atheists in general, just the close-minded, illiberal and ranting ones. I dislike close-minded, ranting and illiberal theists with same.

As far as I am concerned, there are decent, sensible, humane people, some believers, some not. Then there are dogmatic, pompous blinkered people, some believers, some not.

I couldn't give a monkeys what gods someone does or doesn't believe in. I believe in none, some of my favourite people believe in one or several. That doesn't make them idiots, or evil. We just have part of who we are wired rather differently.

🙂

'Objectively' what would be your opinion of say leviticus as the word of god?

I think I understand what you're implying in that it's not possible to have a purely objective approach. I guess the same applies to science which involves observation as well as interpretation. As for leviticus I guess one interpretaion would be that it points to some of the consistent themes of the bible i.e. that God is holy, that sin has disrupted our relationship with him and that the solution to mending that disruption lies in the sacrificial death of an innocent substitute. Then again it could just be a record of the gruesome obsession of a primitive people with how to dig a poo hole, mildew, skin disease and the fat of kidneys!

I'm not a troll, although I can see why it looks like I am. I'm not one to post in forums much, but I am a genuine MTB enthusiast. But despite me generally not having a lot to say I did feel I had to jump in on this topic for obvious reasons.

As for the comment on Noah and the ark, don't forget that Noah spent many years warning about the coming judgement and the ark door was open to anyone... but people just laughed. It’s hard to imagine exactly how things were at the time but the bible is clear that people were desperately wicked, I believe the world was heading in such a bad way that they would have wiped themselves out if they were left to themselves anyway, the sin made God sick and no doubt it was awful. All sense of morality was lost.

As for the comment on natural disasters like the heat wave in Australia, this is a tough one I'll admit. Christians don't always have the answers, one thing for sure tho is that God does care and does help in situations like these and uses his people to help in all manner of natural disasters like these.

Samuri asked why so many 'church goers' ignore the teaching of the bible and act in a way that opposes the bibles teaching. All I can say is that not everyone under the name of Christian reads their bible, or follows the example Christ gave us. the bible warns that many people follow religion for their own gain, for social status, money etc. but the bible clearly demands a change of heart, a true heart and 'pretenders' have no place in the kingdom of heaven.

Beefy is right, true Christianity should be a real commitment, and should really change your life for the better.

By the way it’s great to see there are other Christian bikers out there! One reason I like biking so much is because you get to explore Gods awesome creation.

For atheists, Richard Dawkins is their prophet

what has he prophesised ? It seems to me atheism or pantheistic indifference is about taking responsibility for oneself without recourse to external authority. In such a context a prophet is no less relevant than a god

It does not really matter what people believe in, it should be a personal matter. School should be about teaching the idea of making decisions based on reason, fact and logic not from other peoples whims (Kings and people (Who at some point have 'heard god') or TV celebrities).

From the other thread on the MMR jab people need to do this even more now as people if left to their own devices are basically accepting (Stupid) of what people in a higher authority say.

There could be an argument though that we need some kind of Christian religious education as many of our common principles come from Christianity.

Simon, semantically, is Dawkins not a prophet because he has had a revelation of truth, rather than because he foretells the future?

I do not agree with the statement, but that is surely the thrust of it.

is Dawkins not a prophet because he has had a revelation of truth,

it appears 'prophet' has more meanings than I knew...

I suppose there may be some basic 'truth', but all we have is experience (or memory), sensation and speculation

Sorry, I meant "truth" rather than Truth. 😉

Quite what it means seems to vary a fair bit in nuance.

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet [/url]

PhilAmon - I am speechless.

I do not agree with the statement, but that is surely the thrust of it.

'twas a joke.

You won't go to heaven if you don't believe in it.

Hell on the other hand is less fussy..

It's not as bad as the enforcement of Green dogma that's just caused the burning to death of over 300 people in Oz.

Er, could you explain that one to me please.

There could be an argument though that we need some kind of Christian religious education as many of our common principles come from Christianity.

Please explain what those principles are?
We interpret the bible today based on 21st century moral values not those of the 1st century. If we did we would still be murdering and torturing based on the whim of a malicious, jealous and capricious god.
The bible does not shape our morals and behaviour (or shouldnt!) if it did we would spend our time more concerned with coveting our neighbours Assess!(sp?)
Just as a 10 year old child today could explain to the most brilliant of scholars several centuries ago that the world is not flat, we should not be basing our lifes on a book that could have been written by a goatherd in the 1st century.

Whilst it is possible that their is a God it is highly unlikely.
Unfortunately believers have removed the later option from their thought processes with very little REASON by using a large dollop of faith (a belief in that which is known but cannot be proven) in the absence of any real evidence.
Whilst I have no real need to offend believers (and in the words of Bill Hicks forgive me) I struggle to understand why otherwise rational human beings can believe in such a MASSIVE theory with so little (objective or tangible)evidence to support it and quite a lot of evidence to counter it.
We are then expected to teach this to our children lest we be construed as intolerant.. now that is beyond belief.

As for the comment on natural disasters like the heat wave in Australia, this is a tough one I'll admit. Christians don't always have the answers, one thing for sure tho is that God does care and does help in situations like these and uses his people to help in all manner of natural disasters like these.

Whilst it is possible that their is a God it is highly unlikely

how could we know ? There might be one god per atom. For the life of me I can't think why it matters. Say there were some number of gods (you choose) - are you saying that you would behave differently as a result ? Isn't this hypocritical ? Are we saying you will only do the right thing under threat of punishment or promise of reward ? For a fact any god that required worship would be despicable. To my mind heaven and hell (purely human creations I suspect) sound equally awful 🙁

Have a look at this place - i was quite scared by the website alone !
http://www.ponatahi.school.nz/

Please explain what those principles are?
We interpret the bible today based on 21st century moral values not those of the 1st century. If we did we would still be murdering and torturing based on the whim of a malicious, jealous and capricious god.

Actually in the 1st century it was the Christians who were being tortured and fed to the lions as I recall. They were waiting for the world to end and had been saved so did not seem to mind. It was only after the people who wanted power got into the game that things went bad.

learnt the Christian parables when I was little and none of the sin stuff and basically they are about being kind to everyone even those who are different to you and thankful that you have a good life and to lead a simple life. I am in no way religious and prefer to think that what god is is the sum of all humanity but I would much rather my kids learnt Christian morals rather than the rubbish on TV which seems mostly concerned with making you consume things that you don't need and celebrating thuggish footballers and generally stupid people.

I think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many 'modern' social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values.

Of course there are paradoxes such as one Christian group saying the slave trade was gods will and the other that it was the opposite.

think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many 'modern' social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values.

Especially all that tax break crap if your married cause being a married couple with kids is better than being loving parents.... really grips my shit that one.

Simon .. I would not behave differently if there was a God except for the fact I would no longer argue there is not one!!

Married Mans allowance (and Mortgage Releif MIRAS) was abolished in 2000.
AFAIK there are no benefits to being married.
There are no government benefits to being a loving family whether married or not.

The removal of married mans allowance and MIRAS means that both parents have to work in order to feed and house their families. This is being increased by the provision of child care from lower ages (3 years is it?)

IMO The breaking up of family life (married or otherwise) by financial policy has lead to the current increase in gang culture as there are no stable roll models available.

I think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many 'modern' social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values

There is nothing in use today that forms any of this that hasnt been derived during the intervening period. The Bible teaches us nothing that could not be written in the first century.

As Sam Harris states, it is an intellectual emergency when we consider that only 12% of the American population believe life came about through natural selection.
Whilst fairy stories may be harmless, when they determine international and national policy they are certainly not and millions die every year as a result of the West’s belief in an invisible God.
This should be taught in schools.

[i]learnt the Christian parables when I was little and none of the sin stuff and basically they are about being kind to everyone even those who are different to you and thankful that you have a good life and to lead a simple life.[/i]

I agree that the principles behind many of the parables are sound and should be taught to children (and, indeed, many adults), I don't think you need a god to back them up though.

FWIW, I, with my atheist tendencies, was most impressed at a christening service for a friend's child by the vicar's interpretation of the tale of the good samaritan. He looked at it in a couple of ways that I'd never though of, but, again, a god wasn't necessary in that interpretation.

IMO The breaking up of family life (married or otherwise) by financial policy has lead to the current increase in gang culture as there are no stable roll models available.

Well if I cold be bothered I'd argue that your are wrong.

[i]Well if I cold be bothered I'd argue that your are wrong. [/i]

Staggers back, dazed by the sheer brilliance of this retort. There is nothing more to say. God is dead.

😉

Well it would only go round in circles anyway we dont agree simple as that.

Many of the arguments expressed here are the regular set of tough philospophical conundrums such as 'If God is good why does he allow suffering'. If you're interested I'd recommend a look a Tim Keller's website where there are some mp3 talks in which he tackles some of these issues -

http://www.thereasonforgod.com/

TL:DR
so ill leave you with my 2pnce

Atheists are as bad as Godbotherers, with thier dogmatic arguments,
My order of distain for "other religions" goes like this
1) Christians
2) Atheists
3) everyone else

If covered at all it should all be covered equally, including Atheism.

"Praying" in schools is often sold off as a "moment for personal reflection" and i have no problems with that. sitting with ones eyes shut dosent mean you have to be whinging to the giant Goat in the sky.

Im not an Atheist, I dont care, none of it affects me, its not a case of "if your not with us your against us"

im not sitting on the fence either, im miles away, possibly on my bike, got better things to do.

if i ever aquire a child, i wont enforce a religion, neither will i enforce atheism, i'll point out and try and ensure they understand the options in an unbiased manner.

on a side line, i heard a woman, in sainsburies cafe, kicking off about her toddlers food (2 or 3yrs) with the words "he cant eat that, hes a vegitarian"
Made me suprisingly annoyed, ill bet he didnt choose to be a vegisexual.

the one question i always put to christians is: who get's to heaven someone who 'is a christian' goes to church, says prayers, but does not live by the 10 commandments or me, an athiest who has strong moral convictions but denies god's existence.

If there was a god i cannot understand why he doesn't chose the good man over the bad beliver! They often answer the beliver, sins can be forgiven not believing can't.

As an aside it's christain week (or something) at uni this week. Some of the lectures sound very interesting. "has science disproved christianity?"

my thoughts: no it hasn't disproved christianity but has disproved god.

As Sam Harris states, it is an intellectual emergency when we consider that only 12% of the American population believe life came about through natural selection.

why?
why does it matter what they think about the origins of life?
it dosent change anything, least of all to us, let them believe what they want.

also Tom, as may be covered in one of them there lectures, some scientists believe the have accidently proved god DOES exist,
something about, in the mathmatical equation that defines the univerese, there is one constant, a number, like Pi is a constant, that balances it all (think neo in the matrix)
except for the balance to work, they reckon the value has to be accurate to twelve trillion decimal places (give or take),

you could say, its improbable but possible, or you could take it as beign so improbable there must be a divine creator playing with his giant seesaw...

Atheists are as bad as Godbotherers

ya think ? I've given up atheism for a less dogmatic form, but it seems to me atheism is usually quite personal, and they don't go around recruiting or burning people at stakes

i reckon they would burn a few of the more "extremeist" god botherers if it wasnt against what they believe/the law, and I think a 160~ post long thread may indicate they are more passionate about it than apathetic...?

not that im saying your wrong, just as i see it.

i shoudlnt have looked at this thread, im gonna get even less work done this afternoon.
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