[Closed] Possible can of worms - religion in schools

Ditto

Awareness of religion from an academic perspective is fine by me, it has shaped so much of what is around us it would be ridiculous to ignore its impact through history.

Worship no.

Can of worms? absolutely!

Who had to eat worms?

They should also teach in R.E. lessons that, apart from all the religious believers, there are a huge number of people who believe that religion is a load of old twaddle and that there is overwhelming scientific evidence that supports this idea. Noboby should be forced to perform an act of worship in schools and individuals should be able to make up their own minds in what they believe in. More emphasis on science in schools! More facts and less archaic fantasy!

Agreed, teach a wide range of beliefs, including atheism but don’t force people to worship something they do not believe in or understand.

Atheism is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. It needs no teaching.

Leaving entirely aside the massive question of whether or not it is right for children to learn/be taught/have religion in schools, segregating them for the purposes of worship is not a happy place to end up.

I never developed any christianity at a CofE primary school, but I'm damn sure I would have developed a profund suspicion of anyone who didn't come to assembly.

surfer - Member
Atheism is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. It needs no teaching.

Well put, but it should be taught as a counter arguement to religious beliefs.

I saw a prog. on TV about all the religions in America. My favourite was the one where they sat in a windowless copper pyramid in the front garden and drank alcohol.

[i]Atheism is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. It needs no teaching.[/i]

I disagree. Someone either believes in a God(s), believes there is no God(s) or is not sure. There are reasons why for each, so why not explore those reasons?

Have you ever seen some of the stuff that primary schools are targeted with by religious (predominantly christian) groups? Free books, exhibitions etc. These are, superficially, nice teaching aids that are very attractive to schools/teachers (as is anything that provides an alternative to dry classroom teaching), but are scarily evangelical. The books in particular are devastatingly effective at catching a child's eye (due to colour, glossiness etc). If your child is at primary school, the chances are their library has at least one of these books...

In relation to the wider issue, schools (and headteachers) are in a difficult position. Often it is the 'religious' parents/groups that shout loudest if/when more progressive heads try and deal with the issue of 'acts of worship' in a pragmatic way.

Have you ever seen some of the stuff that primary schools are targeted with by religious (predominantly christian) groups? Free books, exhibitions etc. These are, superficially, nice teaching aids that are very attractive to schools/teachers (as is anything that provides an alternative to dry classroom teching), but are scarily evangelical. The books in particular are devastatingly effective at catching a childs' eye (due to colour, glossiness etc). If your child is at primary school, the chances are their library has at least one of these books...

No, I haven't. Maybe none arrived while I was a primary school teacher?

No I haven't

It may be that certain areas / schools are targeted, but they are pretty frightening if not used in context (other religions are available...). We had some fairly extensive discussions about them and their use at the school I'm involved with (my involvement being as a governor rather than teacher).

I disagree. Someone either believes in a God(s), believes there is no God(s) or is not sure. There are reasons why for each, so why not explore those reasons?

Because it would be a wholesale waste of time to discuss why one person does not believe in another persons imaginary friend.

It scares the life out of me that so many seemingly intelligent people believe in such mumbo jumbo!

Up with free and logical thinking!

I disagree, I think it would form an integral part of the discussion. After all, if one professes to be atheist but cannot explain why, isn't that as blind as one not being able to explain why one is, say, a Christian?

I do class myself as atheist by the way.

I went to a CofE primary, and even at my current seconary school where I'm doing A-levels we are meant to legally have a christian themed assembly every day, but we only do it twice a week.

Only one of my peers is a practising christian, all the rest of us think it's ridiculous and tantamount to indoctrination the way christian belief is taught in school.

Christian belief is taught way too much like it's fact for my liking. I don't know about other schools, but at mine, the three RE teachers are all practising christians. It would be much better imo for what different religions believe to be taught factually, and philosophy to be taught by an agnostic who will have least bias.

Personally I'm an apathetic agnostic - we can't know whether a God exists, and if he does or doesn't I don't care anyway. If He really is all-loving, powerful etc... He certainly won't want or need us praying to Him!

I disagree, I think it would form an integral part of the discussion. After all, if one professes to be atheist but cannot explain why, isn't that as blind as one not being able to explain why one is, say, a Christian?

I do class myself as atheist by the way

Why do you have to explain why you don't believe in something that doesn't exist. If as an Atheist you believe there are no gods then why do you feel you need to explain your position?
why is religion a special case?

I went to a CofE school, then a school that had semi religious assemblies (the actual assembly was generaly dependant on the teacher, but we HAD to pray at the end). If anythign its brought me up with a deep seated resentment of christianity, christian views and questionable morality.

My personal oppinion is that "god" is a split used to hold an ignorant view of the world together. Not using the word ignorant in a bad way, just meaning a lack of knowlage/understanding.

Take the big bang, some christians diebelieve it (presumably they cant/dont want cope with the thoery/maths behind it). So they say God created the world in 6 easy steps.

Some christians amalgomate it into their beliefs it. So they say God started the big bang with "let there be light" (which in a perverse kind of way works, first light/energy then matter etc). Fair enough, even scientist can't be certain what was going on.

Then youve got atheists/scientists who are quite happy to live with the fact that they didn't know what was going on, but dont feel the need to kill each other in defence of their hypothesis, although their research into what was going on may eventualy help religious nutters kill each other.

If you want seperate assemblies one day you will want a seperate nation within a nation. Enoch Powell was a racist however elements of what he said could come to light in 50yrs time.

[i]isn't that as blind as one not being able to explain why one is, say, a Christian? [/i]

I bet the vast majority of christians cannot define why they are christian. That's what blind faith means.

I could debate for many hours about why I am an atheist (if that's the debate that were started). I've reached that state of mind by assessing all the information I have available and determining that there is no god. To be honest, it's probably harder to be an atheist than to adpot any other belief system *because* no-one tries to teach you about it, it's an opinion you have to reach in spite of the spiritual doctrine we are all subjected to at school.

Don't forget, being an atheist is not the same as being an agnostic.

[i]If He really is all-loving, powerful etc... He certainly won't want or need us praying to Him! [/i]

If he does exist he needs a good kick up the ****.

[i]Why do you have to explain why you don't believe in something that doesn't exist. If as an Atheist you believe there are no gods then why do you feel you need to explain your position?[/i]

I'm not saying one has to but I am saying that one should be able to if asked.

FWIW, I don't believe there is a God as I believe the supernatural is a human construct originally formed to explain phenomena that were not understood at the time. Most of these phenomena can now be explained by science and do not have supernatural origins. Those that remain will doubtless be similarly explained away as our scientific understanding grows.

[i]I bet the vast majority of christians cannot define why they are christian.[/i]

I agree, and I wouldn't class those as Christians. Few things get my goat more than people who 'remember' that they're Christians so that they can get married in a pretty church.

[i] Spongebob - Member

It scares the life out of me that so many seemingly intelligent people believe in such mumbo jumbo!

Up with free and logical thinking! [/i]

I agree with free logical thought but faith has no bearing on inteligence.

Yep Nugget96, shocking isn't it!

[i]These are, superficially, nice teaching aids that are very attractive to schools/teachers (as is anything that provides an alternative to dry classroom teaching), but are scarily evangelical [/i]

I've never seen anything like these in 6 years of Governorship. And as a Chair of Governors, I'd have something to say about the Senior Staff using text books that just dropped in through the letterbox. In fact most Heads I've come across would find the idea laughable.

A Daily Act of Worship is in the Law. Don't like it? Lobby your MP to do something about it. Personally, and I come from a Primary background, we teach what we refer to as the "wonder" of religion, i.e. stories, acts of faith, instruments of faith (cross, turbans, etc) of all faiths. but as this is the UK, we have a bias towards CofE. Never had a parent complain to me or the Head about it, and in my experience, parents aren't shy of coming forward if they think something's wrong. I just don't think it's high up on peoples radar.

I'm not saying one has to but I am saying that one should be able to if asked.

No "one" shouldnt! this may seem a minor point but it is at the heart of religions impact on society, that even the ones who believe there is no god must kowtow (sp) sufficiently to provide a good argument as to why they dont believe it!

Religion should NOT be subject forced upon the students. By law you have to take up to GCSE level, along with English, Maths and Science. I believe that religion should be like history etc. You learn it up to year 9 and then get to chose whether you pick it as a GCSE subject.

I had a very religious Religion teacher who tried to indoctrinate the children in his class, I thought this was sick. You do not have to attend R.E classes if you belong to faith that does not like you studying other faiths. Atheism does not count. So if you Muslim you do not have to attend the classes but if you an Atheist you have no choice.

Religion is dead in the UK, it should not be forced upon our children. Instead it should be studied as a history, and all children should study it together up to a year 9 level no matter what faith they are. I also think I should not be taught by someone with a religious preference. I also think faith assemblies should go as religion has a very small part in most peoples’ lives now a days.

Why is religion allowed in assembly anyway? Unless it is a specific faith school why do children still have this arcane religion rammed down their throats? I mean if its a Catholic school you can understand that God will be mentioned daily, lessons on how to avoid evil-masterbation, worship the idols, trinkets and fine clothing of the High Priests etc

I agree with free logical thought but faith has no bearing on inteligence

How can a scientist go home at night and believe the earth is only 6000 years old? Robert Winston is a brilliant scientist and a national treasure. He is a practicing Jew. I for one cant rationalise how he squares the circle in his own miind.

I don't kowtow to anyone. Indeed I said that one shouldn't [b]have[/b] to explain their atheism. If you choose not to, if you can honestly say "I have my reasons, but I don't feel I need to discuss them", fair enough. However if you [b]cannot[/b] explain your belief (and that's what it is), even to yourself, then it's as blind as any blind belief in a theistic religion.

I repeat my earlier statement. It is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

If you feel you have to have a reason to "not" believe in something then that's up to you and maybe its brought about through guilt or indoctrination. Atheists dont have to justify non belief in irrationality.

How can a scientist go home at night and believe the earth is only 6000 years old?

Perhaps because not all christians and jews believe the creation story to be a literal truth?

Oh I see, the "its all a metaphor" argument?

Its always such fun when we interpret the books with a 21st century set of values and morals picking the good bits out such as the Golden rule and leaving the other bits about murdering children etc then say the book in question shapes our morals!

If its not to be taken literally (and the Koran has to be viewed literally by its followers) then what is its use?

Why is religion allowed in assembly anyway? Unless it is a specific faith school why do children still have this arcane religion rammed down their throats?

It's not just 'allowed', it's the law - schools must provide a religious assembly (thoughs kids can opt out with parental agreement).

The reason is that when the state school system was set up there were already a lot of church schools, and it was the quid pro quo for getting them into the state system.

FWIW, I don't believe there is a God as I believe the supernatural is a human construct originally formed to explain phenomena that were not understood at the time. Most of these phenomena can now be explained by science and do not have supernatural origins. Those that remain will doubtless be similarly explained away as our scientific understanding grows.

Why does the Universe exist?

Can I take this opportunity to flag up Christopher Hitchens' book 'God is Not Great'....it gives some very useful and wittily scurrilous arguments for atheism.

[i]I repeat my earlier statement. It is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.[/i]

Nope, that's a different thing, that's just not taking a stance one way or the other. If you actively understand why you are an atheist and have reached that opinion through rational argument then it is a fully backed up belief.

[i]Why does the Universe exist? [/i]

That's exactly the sort of question that leads to religion. Why does there have to be a reason for it's existence? It just happened.

That's exactly the sort of question that leads to religion.

So RudeBoy is the messiah? He is a trinity after all.

In the name of the FredDibnah, the PaddedBra and the RudeBoy. Amen.

It just happened.

Science states that there has to be a reason for EVERYTHING. Every thing, action, reaction, phenomenon.

Again:

Why does the Universe exist?

I'm not the Messiah...

that's just not taking a stance one way or the other

What is this "one way" or "other"?
As an Atheist I dont need to qualify my disbelief. Only religion has a word to describe its non belief, as Harris says we don't have words for non astrologists. It is indicative of the false position that religion holds. It is granted greater respect than it deserves.
gods don't exist and similar to any other proposition the onus is on the believer to prove it not on the non believer to disprove it. Why do you think religion is a special case?

As Hitchins states: "what can be asserted withoutt evidence, can be dismissed without evidence"

Bill, I would also recommend Sam Harris.

I'm not the Messiah...

🙂

[i]Why does the Universe exist?[/i]

I don't know. But 1000 years ago we didn't understand the rain cycle, 300 years ago we didn't know that bodies of mass were drawn to each other by gravity, 100 years ago we didn't know how flight was possible, 60 years ago we didn't know that DNA was at the root of all living things. Just because we don't know now doesn't mean we won't know at some time in the future.

[i]Nope, that's a different thing, that's just not taking a stance one way or the other. If you actively understand why you are an atheist and have reached that opinion through rational argument then it is a fully backed up belief. [/i]

Exactly

[i]Atheists dont have to justify non belief in irrationality.[/i]

Okay, let's turn it on it's head. Why is religion irrational?

Rudeboy

To ask "why" is not valid. Just because you can ask why does not make it a real question like "why" is that mountain. I would ask why do we need a reason to be?

If you ask "how" then that's a scientific and logical question that has not been fully explained. Because it hasn't been explained yet is not a reason to believe in fairy tales. Otherwise thats just a "god of the gaps" in our knowledge.

I think you are confusing the question in a scientific and philosophical manner.

[i]Why does the Universe exist? [/i]
Scientific - because the big bang happpened and the universe was the result, just like why did that ball just move? Because you hit it with a force.

Philosophically - I would first follow Russel's mantra of philosophical thinking, and of course this leads us down a path where many solutions have been proposed, but none as strong as religion yet:

[i]"What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance."[/i]

Scientific - because the big bang happpened and the universe was the result, just like why did that ball just move? Because you hit it with a force.

No no, that's 'how'.

I asked 'why'?

Anyway, much as I've enjoyed this debate (and I have), it's four o'clock which is hometime

Thank God for that 😉

(Wanders off from thread, laughing)

Rudeboy I think I answered your question earlier.

Rudeboy -

first of all, why should there be a why? Attempting to find meaning in the universe is a human activity, the universe doesn't need a reason to exist. Unless you mean in the sense that if we weren't here to see it it wouldn't exist.

Secondly, God is no explanation at all. If God is the explanation for the existence of the universe, what is the explanation for the existence of God? It doesn't move things on at all, it's just a sleight of hand and for some reason half the population take their eye off the ball and think an explanation has been given, when it hasn't.

It's disgraceful, [url= http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/columnists/petermullen/4114709.Any_excuse_to_beat_up_Christianity/ ]Any excuse to beat up Christianity[/url]!

I was lucky enough to have a very understanding form tutor who arranged for me to mess around in his science lab during assembly. Equally, the religious studies teacher was a slight crackpot and we didn't learn anything about religion either, which was great.

Hate the idea of "compulsory worship", and when I have kids they're not being to be indoctrinated in this way.

lolololololololol.

Ahhhh had a good belly laugh at that!

Hate the idea of "compulsory worship", and when I have kids they're not being to be indoctrinated in this way.

I love the idea that what goes on in the typical school assembly could be described as indoctrination 🙂

I'm with Mike here, describing what happens in Assemblies in most Primary schools as indoctrination is stretching the definition of the word to it's limits. You'd struggle to find a 6 year old with a defined religious stance/belief/understanding outside of an overtly religious family, and even then their grasp would be limited I'd suggest.

[i]Indoctrination is the process of ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. ..[/i]

That sounds quite like a law ruling that each day the child has to have some form of worship that they cannot question in the faith that is most recognised at the school.

No it doesn't. (or rather, most Worship in most schools isn't conducted like your description) C'mon, most of you will remember half mumbled hymns, and a half-hearted attempt at the Lord's prayer from your school days, and yet amazingly enough nearly all of you have a reasonably healthy questioning of any religious teaching.

So you think it's right that children from the ages of 5-16 should have religion forced upon them?

I remember singing

"Who built the Ark?
No-one, no-one,
Who built the Ark?
Bloody no-one built the Ark."

And one about jet-planes meeting in the air to be refuelled, which had some great autumnal imagery but no mention of the ten commandments.

I also remember a prayer about green blackboards in Scouts, that we used to read to make the others laugh, and one about bricks.

So you think it's right that children from the ages of 5-16 should have religion forced upon them?

No, and I don't believe that they are.

Well I remember being sent out, paraded to the head teacher and being made to sit in isolation for needless disruption when I pointed out to our religious nutcase of a teacher that god did not exist. May of my classmates were stupid enough to fall for the religious rubbish, it is the only way churches continue to exist. Get them at a young age.

We also got handed out bibles and given lectures from the local church. Then being told that it was 'The Law'. I would compare the Christian occupation in schools to the Hitler youth.

I would compare the Christian occupation in schools to the Hitler youth.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwi n's_Law]Godwin's Law[/url]?

Godwins law does not count as this thread is about religion in schools by law which is a form of government propaganda.

Godwins law does not count as this thread is about religion in schools by law which is a form of government propaganda.

You're right, carry on. I will keep an eye out for our nation's youth dressed in choir robes marching through the street.

[i]I disagree. Someone either believes in a God(s), believes there is no God(s) or is not sure. There are reasons why for each, so why not explore those reasons?[/i]
Why not indeed. It would be a very quick exploration though.
1) You are an idiot
2) You are not an idiot
3) You are not sure if you are an idiot or not

Ditto

Awareness of religion from an academic perspective is fine by me, it has shaped so much of what is around us it would be ridiculous to ignore its impact through history.

Worship no.

School should be like uni-teach academics.

Religion in your own time.

No, seriously, it's exactly like the Hitler Youth. Loads of primary school kids meeting up in the morning to sing a few songs about being nice to one another and mumble some stuff about being grateful for the good things they have. While their commandant rants about the need to burn all the jews.

No, they won't be marching through the streets, just being touched by dirty old priests or trying to destroy the infidels. (Let’s not just narrow this to Christianity)

The vast majority of people with religion are perfectly normal, well-adjusted individuals and it is impossible to tell from a cursory examination of them, or indeed from measuring their brains with calipers, that they are any different from anyone else. The vast bulk of the time it quite simply doesn't matter a monkeys.

I have more in common with certain well-educated, articulate humane and decent believers than I do with plenty of closed-minded, illiberal ranting atheists.

🙂

Get them young and you have them for life. While I agree that religions as an accademic subject should be taught to all kids (and in a much more rounded, even handed way than has been my experience!) The daily act of worship is an outmoded nonsence.

I am sorry if Christians, Jews, Muslims, et al see this as "another secular attack" on them but there you go. I don't see people who love, say, Laurie Lee penning hate mail to me because, IMHO, his writing sucks and has no relevance today and there are better books to make kids read. I am free to write an essay on this and probably get some good marks for it (I did as it happens) but try and argue the non-exsistance of god in RE and you are branded a trouble maker and punished.

Religion is not special, it does not automaticly get reverential treatment or a special place in schools / society. Its like all other ideas, many of which are discarded as loony and people move on...remember the Segway?

[url=

Brigstock on the subject[/url]

SSP

The "Act of Worship" at my primary is as follows, we get the kids together in the morning, and sing a song, about say, The Weather, Harvest, Summer. How nice it is to have friends...That sort of thing. Maybe, in one of the verses there'll be a mention of "God". That's pretty much it. No hymns, no prayers, no Hitler Youth.

It's pretty much like that in most mainstream State schools. Be outraged if you must.

The "Act of Worship" at my primary is as follows, we get the kids together in the morning, and sing a song, about say, The Weather, Harvest, Summer. How nice it is to have friends...That sort of thing. Maybe, in one of the verses there'll be a mention of "God". That's pretty much it. No hymns, no prayers, no Hitler Youth.

It's pretty much like that in most mainstream State schools. Be outraged if you must.

Book burning starts in Y4, I think.

Similar story here, though two years ago we chose a new more secular mission statement type thing for our primary. Religions are studied but not practised, and assemblies might not be recognised as acts of worship by those who do a lot of worshipping, though technically that's what we say they are since the law states we must have them. But the truth is that if you live in the UK, the church is an integral part of the state, Parliament starts every day with prayers, and Blair didn't feel free to join the Catholic church until he left office. It may change bit by bit, but govt is unlikely to want to unravel one part of the arrangement as if one bit was shown to be illogical and unhelpful, out would go the unelected second chamber, the Privy Council, myriad advisory bodies and ultimately the monarchy, and that might lead to an open and accountable system of government, and who really wants that?

I have more in common with certain well-educated, articulate humane and decent believers than I do with plenty of closed-minded, illiberal ranting atheists.

Quite.

closed-minded, illiberal ranting atheists.

Closed minded? Show me proof of god/s exsistance and I will change my views. More than can be said of many religious people. Its better to have ideas than faith, you can change and idea.

Illiberal? No, I want equal rights for all, including the right NOT to have a religion / be part of one / challenge them in reasonable terms. Something religious groups as a whole tend to forget. No one has the right not to be offended.

Ranting? No, quietly considered points. I'll leave ranting up to those who do it best. These are often backed up by "The Book" and " A higher power" and often ask for your unthinking obedience / credit card number.

Atheist? Yes thanks.

SSP

I teach my students to follow the great Lord:
[url= http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/th_obey1.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/th_obey1.jp g"/> [/img]
[/url]
(Like hell do I enforce that archaic law, it's what Ofsted would tick me off for, but balls to them)

Show me proof of god/s exsistance

Show me proof God [i]doesn't[/i] exist.

why should there be a why?

Why not?

to ask "why" is not valid

Oh, so because an Atheist says so, that's that, is it?

We had this a few weeks ago. Interestingly, like then, it's the Atheists that are being the most vociferous. Like, somehow, that shouting louder is going to make them more right...

[b]The Meaning of Life

Why are we here? What's life all about?
Is God really real, or is there some doubt?
Well, tonight, we're going to sort it all out,
For, tonight, it's 'The Meaning of Life'.

What's the point of all this hoax?
Is it the chicken and the egg time? Are we just yolks?
Or, perhaps, we're just one of God's little jokes.
Well, ça c'est le 'Meaning of Life'.

Is life just a game where we make up the rules
While we're searching for something to say,
Or are we just simply spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DNA. Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.

In this 'life', what is our fate?
Is there Heaven and Hell? Do we reincarnate?
Is mankind evolving, or is it too late?
Well, tonight, here's 'The Meaning of Life'.

For millions, this 'life' is a sad vale of tears,
Sitting 'round with rien nothing to say
While the scientists say we're just simply spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DNA. Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.

So, just why-- why are we here,
And just what-- what-- what-- what do we fear?
Well, ce soir, for a change, it will all be made clear,
For this is 'The Meaning of Life'. C'est le sens de la vie.
This is 'The Meaning of Life'.[/b]