Using Shell V Power in my 97 Nissan Primera there was a noticeable difference in torque which allowed me to shift up earlier/stay in a higher gear. A much improved driving experience, mpg improved by about 10% which covered the extra cost and I never used anything else. When I bought a 2010 Toyota Verso, couldn't feel any difference so stopped using it after filling up twice. I'm not sure about the difference between supermarket premium and others. I would try it, at least you would know.
AHH good, Sui has chipped in. Nothing more to add, other than when short on fuel I had to use Morrisons yesterday... I'll be topping up with v-power when I get a chance. At least I found somewhere with 97 Ron.
So WHY BOTHER?
I'd be less concerned about using it in a petrol engine unless its a high performance car.
On a diesel, it's of much more importance. Modern diesel engines have a massive task in keeping emissions and pollution in check. Things like EGRs and DPFs in diesel engines are very temperamental. Modern diesel engines are at a high risk of carbon build up internally which causes a lot of problems.
One way to mitigate that is using the best fuel possible. As has been mentioned in other posts, the premium fuel and the non-supermarket fuels have more additives added to them and those additives help reduce some of the longer term issues that modern diesel engines have to deal with.
Speaking of hire cars, I was also looking the other day for a trip in May and yeah the prices are pretty crazy at the moment, much more expensive than I remember.
Presumably we've all seen those horror Yoo Toob vids of filthy direct injection intake manifolds after sub 50k miles? They always seem to need walnut blasting at very low mileages which seems odd. Is this the sort of thing soopa fuels deal with or are you still going to get reaaallly dorty and need cleaning anyway. Diesel and/or petrol engines BTW
Modern diesel engines are at a high risk of carbon build up internally which causes a lot of problems.
I would say that a modern petrol engine, if it's direct injection as most are, is at much worse risk. Removing the cylinder head to clean out all the gunk is a regular service job on many!
Is this the sort of thing soopa fuels deal with or are you still going to get reaaallly dorty and need cleaning anyway. Diesel and/or petrol engines BTW
In a normal petrol engine, the fuel is injected into the inlet so some petrol cleans out the valves. But in a direct injection engine it goes into the cylinder, so only air and recirculated exhaust gasses go into the intake. Consequently, they get gunked up. So fancy fuel makes no difference there.
This can happen to diesels too but as long as you don't abuse your engine it doesn't need cleaning out every 50k miles, I'm not sure why.
Can the fuels be mixed? Or do you have to run your car (near enough) completely empty?
Similarly for if you then went back to non super do you have to drain the tank empty?
This is asking from a diesel 2.0td perspective but any info would still be useful! Have always wondered this.
you can mix them. Many folk will fill up with premium every other fill or so.
Personally I use premium in both my cars (a diesel Mazda and a petrol Abarth 595)
Normal but branded (non supermarket) fuel user here, but I've got a 2.0 euro6 Ford diesel engine with a wet belt so have bigger things to worry about than dirtying up the engine internals.
No car I've owned ever had a sufficient increase in MPG using premium (higher RON) fuel over regular fuel to cover the increased cost per litre, including everything from big normally aspirated, small capacity turbo'd and high-revving VTEC engines. YMMV, literally.
As for the ruddy hills along the A30 in Cornwall, probably the only time I've wished I could travel legally at car speeds. Our van won't maintain speed up the hills there if you hit the bottom of them at the van speed limit.
I never really understand (literally don't understnad the chemistry) all the hate for supermarket fuel. I pretty much always fill up at Tesco ( for the points = tunnel crossings). My last couple of cars have been v high mileage without issue. 200k on a diesel passt and 160k+ on a diesel SMax. I'm not saying branded isn;t better but is it realy that much better for the extra cost?
Also, If I fill up my 2.2l Merc Viano with super cool diesel or what ever its called, how much extra mpg will I get on a trip down to the Alps?
Thanks @ Sui: Every time I read about E10 causing huge drops in fuel economy (Daily Mail clickbait headlines) I get a bit of a nervous tic.
OP a 1.6 Grand C Max (ecoboost) will cheerfully drink any kind of E5, E10 or a supposedly "performance" 95octane fuel.
TBH youre better off just making sure your car is properly serviced (new oil filter and clean, new oil makes a huge difference), the tyres are both in good nick and inflated properly (if the car is to be fully loaded take the pressures up to the full load recommendation) and FFS dont sit on on a motorway at 80-90mph+....
Using anything other than normal pump fuel is pretty much pointless unless you strongly feel that the oil companies need some additional support during these hard times.
I always used to have small engined cars, then got a 2.0 diesel. Wouldnt go for a small output (power) engine again as they use more fuel and less comfortable to drive… apart form around town.
Very much the other way around.
Most engines / vehicle combinations are more efficient somewhere close to flat out. That's not the same as saying a 3.5l V8 is more efficient at 150 than a 1.6 i4 at 110, but the i4 will be more efficient than the V8 at 110.
i.e. a 1.0 NA petrol engine that barely did 70mph would be the most efficient (petrol) option if it existed.
A 2.0 Diesel works well in the same car because it's doing 2000rpm rather than 4000rpm so the actual volume of air/fuel is about the same (whilst the turbo isn't running).
It's more noticeable motorbikes because there's a greater range of engines to chose from in similarly sized vehicles. A 250cc bike will do 80mpg at motorway speeds all day long. A liter bike will do half the mpg because the throttle is barely cracked open.
The exception that proves the rule are the edge cases like when Top Gear raced an M3 Vs a Prius round their track and got 17mpg in both. Because the prius spent the whole time trying to accelerate which is using the same amount of fuel as going flat out, but not going as fast.
Presumably we’ve all seen those horror Yoo Toob vids of filthy direct injection intake manifolds after sub 50k miles? They always seem to need walnut blasting at very low mileages which seems odd. Is this the sort of thing soopa fuels deal with or are you still going to get reaaallly dorty and need cleaning anyway. Diesel and/or petrol engines BTW
In principal anything that burns cleaner will recirculate less crap into the intake of a direct injection engine.
In reality:
a) stop doing short journeys you could walk is much better advice. And unlike other engine issues, an Italian tune up or occasional motorway run won't reverse the process.
b) if it's a problem, then fancy fuels once a month won't help in the slightest. 'cleaning' action is mostly just of the injectors, you can get some additives that will persist a bit longer and burn crap off the catalyst. But my gut feeling is any additive that persists after combustion is probably what's blocking the EGR, so more =/ better.
c) By the time there's solid gunk in there the only way it's coming out is by scrubbing/blasting it.
The UK is a net importer of fuel, and Fawley (Exxon) is not the only operational refinery in the UK at all -there are 6
I didn't say that only exxon has a refinery in the UK I said that of your list ie. BP, Total, Shell and Exxon only Exxon has a refinery the the UK. the remaining refineries being owned by others, having been sold by the like so BP, Total & Shell!
It doesn’t matter if it all comes from the same refinery. Different customers have different additive packs added, at the refinery I think.
Additives yes but not to the point or 95 and 97 RON. There is no difference between "branded" and "Non Branded" petrol so buy whatever from where ever you want. Whilst there is a difference between 95 & 97 RON everything else is snake oil, don't kid yourself otherwise.
My old mechanic used to advise me to use the fancy stuff every third or fourth tank. This is in Germany where supermarket fuels don't exist.
2.5l T5
I seen to remember that it felt like there was more grunt /acceleration was keener.
Since having the Ducato (from new) I've only filled it with the "cheap" stuff. Seeing as I'm now in Spain and fuel seems much cheaper here than Northern Europe. My covered 11,000km since new.
Posh petrol will not solve the issue of a steep hill and a heavily loaded and modestly powered car.
Absolutely this. When I had a 1.7 Zetec Puma, I’d put in a tankful of Shell VMax, just to clean everything out, and I’d make sure I used the best possible oil, just because the engine didn’t have iron bore liners, the bores were Nickasil plasma coated, and vulnerable to wear.
Over the course of two years I was in and out of Cornwall three or four times a week on average, driving a wide range of vehicles including C-Max, B-Max, in fact pretty much every model of Ford, but they were all unladen and only me in them, and I can’t say I noticed any real performance issues, in fact the only car I can remember that really struggled was a Fiat 500X, the bloated SUV/crossover, which was a real slug! On uphill sections of the A30/303, M5 and M4 I was down into 3rd with my foot flat on the floor and barely getting 60mph out of the horrid thing.
An NA engine, as has been pointed out, will struggle with a full load, and nothing can change that. The little 1.0 EcoBoost motors are a world apart, mine delivers 125bhp, and about the same amount of torque, but the same engine in some bigger cars has a map that gives 140bhp, and corresponding levels of torque, it’s the turbo and map that’s important.
I nearly always use Sainsbury’s fuel, it’s been consistently cheaper locally, but I’ll use whatever’s available and cheapest, and I’ve never noticed and difference in performance; that’s using E5. Getting an oil change just before Christmas seemed to make a difference though, very much for the better.
ran my old integra type R pretty much only on v power but that was only as it was mapped for 98 from the factory.
havent got a clue if it improved mpg but could tell the differance performance wise.
never used it in anything else, not even my track car, power to weight in that was so good just got it mapped on standard fuel as didn't think the small gains where worth it.
Posh petrol is for higher compression engines. Typically turbos but some NA call for higher octane too.
You can run lower octane fuel and get less mpg, it won't break anything.
Running higher octane in an engine designed for low octane fuel is wasting money.
Looks like the 2012 came in a 1.6 and a 1.6 EcoBoost. Like most early gen direct injection engines, don't the EcoBoosts suffer from valve sludge? Could be time for a clean-out.
Turbo engines don’t always have higher compression ratios. In fact the block may have a lower ratio to deal with the already compressed air without putting undue stress on the engine. BMW M54 (NA) has the same compression ratio as the N55 (FI) and the B58 (FI) is only higher due to larger bores.
Higher octane fuel is more effective in larger engines only because as a percentage gain, it’s more significant on higher power engines.
Running a tank every so often is a bit daft as the ECU won’t fully adapt to the new fuel over a single tank, then will run suboptimal on the next tank.
My M3 and Z4M and even my e46 wagon all run better on 99 than 95. Smoother and less revs for the same speed. I also don’t seem to get the problems others with e46s do with gummed TBs etc. I’ve only ever used v-power or occasionall Tesco momentum 12 years ago when there wasn’t a Shell station within 20miles.
I use posh petrol in my old motorbike as it has less ethanol in it.
My M3 and Z4M and even my e46 wagon all run better on 99 than 95. Smoother and less revs for the same speed
it changed your gear ratios ??
It depends on the car.
on a cmax (unless its turbod) then probably nothing.
i do notice that the golf (1.4tsi (turbo)) rx8 (high compression ****le ) M3 (NA v8) RS4 (na V8) Q2 (turbo'd) Q5 (2.0 tsi) have all provided better mileage on premium fuel. they have also ran smoother. I do not use supermarket fuels on my cars as i find they dont run as well. If they dont cause an issue for you go for it and enjoy the cheaper petrol.
it changed your gear ratios ??
I was meaning throttle, but you knew that.
Not helping the OP at all, but as a diesel owner who is paranoid about not driving a Honda anymore and scared of DPFs/modern engines and emissions, I use an additive in my diesel which works out cheaper than Super Diesel
https://www.hydra-int.com/kerosene-cebo-cetane-booster-lubricants.html
Cetane boost.
Cant say it makes much difference to mpg, and cant notice any driving difference, or its very minimal. But thats what I want. I dont want blockages etc, so I dont want to notice anything if you get me.
I tend to use Tesco. Tesco stations are controlled by exxon if remember rightly and their fuels are very similar (but not the same).
With my 1.5tsi Skoda, I average 40mpg with E10 petrol, if I use momentum 99 E5, thats goes up to 45mpg, which is a 12.5% increase.
Filled yesterday, E10 was 139.9 and momentum 99 was 146.6, which is a 4.7% difference in price.
Therefore its a no brainer for me to run the more expensive fuel as it works out cheaper per mile. The other advantages of running posh fuel is just a bonus.
I was meaning throttle, but you knew that.
So it was getting more power from the same amount of air, that's possibly even more impressive than a magic gearbox unless it was a turbo'd version.
Octane ratings only prevents pre ignition at high compression. High compression only occurs at wide open throttle because at part throttle you have a manifold vacuum which translates to the compressed charge in the engine being nowhere near the ~10x atmospheric pressure the compresion ratio implies.
scared of DPFs/modern engines and emissions
You probably don't need to be. I took the EGR pipe off my Passat for a good clean after about 150k miles, there was just a light film of soot inside it at one end. As long as you're doing some miles you're fine. Even the cooler was just a bit dirty, not remotely blocked.
So it was getting more power from the same amount of air, that’s possibly even more impressive than a magic gearbox unless it was a turbo’d version.
Absolutely possible, in fact, the whole point of higher RON fuel - if you can advance the ignition more before knock then you will get more power for a given AFR. This is literally the reason for calibrations being able to react to higher RON fuel. Doesn't have to be turbo-charged, it is all down to the ignition mapping and whether the EMS can detect and correct for higher/lower RON fuel.
This isn't the 80s - Better fuel, better combustion, your ECU will adjust the stoichiometric ratio and advance the timing to match what's happening in the engine/exhaust. Less fuel required for a given speed/power demand.
Octane ratings only prevents pre ignition at high compression. High compression only occurs at wide open throttle because at part throttle you have a manifold vacuum which translates to the compressed charge in the engine being nowhere near the ~10x atmospheric pressure the compresion ratio implies.
This is incorrect; knock (pre-ignition is different to knock) can happen at any engine load if the ignition is advanced too far, or if there are hot-spots in the cylinder, etc. Yes, it is more likely at higher loads and if the engine has a higher compression ratio or is at high boost (giving a functionally higher CR) but can happen anywhere.
Obviously if the calibrator has done their job properly then knock at low-loads isn't going to happen, but there will still be advantages in mid-load regions with a higher octane fuel to advance the ignition.
Most modern engines - even smaller, non-performance ones - will be mapped at 99RON to form the base ignition maps and then will have corrections applied based on the knock levels seen by the EMS. Running < 99RON will see some knock increases and the EMS will learn a global offset required to ensure knock seen is below a given threshold across the entire engine map or, for some EMS, the offset is applied separately in a grid across the engine map (so more knock susceptible areas will have a higher retard offset than those that don't see much knock).
On an engine mapped as above (which is any I have done - engine calibrator by profession for 15 years) there is an absolute difference in how the ECU runs on different octane fuels. HOWEVER, whether that gives any appreciable difference in end result is down to the engine. A small, non-performance engine it will be negligble, more powerful ones it will become noticeable. Ignition advance is proportional to engine torque for a given engine speed and load (air mass) by way of an efficiency curve. Advance moves you up the efficiency curve, retarding down it. The curve is flatter at the most advanced end and steeper at the most retarded end. So the advance you get from increased octane moves you from high efficiency to higher effiency and might be 1-3% on the efficiency curve, depending on the speed/load you are running. Obviously that then translates to if your engine is making more torque than another then 1-3% is going to be more or less noticeable.
Good informative answer, thanks.
Should we also expect slightly better MPG with higher octane then if the timing can be advanced?
Interesting reading, all of the above posts.
If I put expensive electricity in my battery will I get better performance over using cheap electricity?* 🤔
* I only own battery powered torches, but the extra run time/lumen output might be beneficial when I head out in the dark.
If I put expensive electricity in my battery will I get better performance over using cheap electricity?* 🤔
no but you could use a more expensive more energy dense battery for better performance.
Should we also expect slightly better MPG with higher octane then if the timing can be advanced?
Yeah, there will be some improvement as you are making better use of the air/fuel charge.
As it happens, I popped into Sainsbury’s this afternoon to top up the tank, and put in E10 by mistake, just not paying attention, so it’s half- and- half. I can’t imagine it’s going to make any significant difference really, though.
@speed12, whereabouts are you, and what’s the going rate for a remap of an EcoBoost 1.0, currently at 125bhp?
This is incorrect; knock (pre-ignition is different to knock) can happen at any engine load if the ignition is advanced too far, or if there are hot-spots in the cylinder, etc. Yes, it is more likely at higher loads and if the engine has a higher compression ratio or is at high boost (giving a functionally higher CR) but can happen anywhere.
When my car was last on a rolling road, the chap on the laptop said it needed most work mid load to prevent knock. 3 litre turbo 8v Inline 4 and 9.something to 1 compression ratio. Which is quite high for an old fashioned turbocharged engine. It has to run on posh petrol due to the fuel lines and the high CR.
I tend to find engines can seem to run a bit smoother, as in less rattly and more refined on the expensive stuff, on cars that can take advantage of it, tiny performance increace tiny amount of improved economy.
It's certainly not going to help a fully loaded car that doesnt have much power, up a hill though, at least not by any practical amount.
I don't know about petrol...but if I fill my 2009 caddy van with ultimate diesel...I get a out 600miles to a full tank
@ A11y
Can you elaborate on the
"... but I’ve got a 2.0 euro6 Ford diesel engine with a wet belt so have bigger things to worry about than dirtying up the engine internals"...
I'm a relatively new owner of a 2 litre diesel Ford Duratorq engine that is Euro6 (2017 / 2018).
What do I have in store that isn't influenced by the kind of diesel I pour into the tank ?
My 2009 diesel estate runs more smoothly and with marginally better economy on Super Diesel. I tend to fill it up on that before a long run.
Having said that it's pretty rare that I use the car these days, it can easily go 2 weeks parked up. Doesn't really do short trips which I suppose helps the engine a bit as well.
Years ago I once got 20 liters of vpower and ran it through some chainsaws.... It stank. Back to the regular stuff for saw use.
Can you elaborate on the
“… but I’ve got a 2.0 euro6 Ford diesel engine with a wet belt so have bigger things to worry about than dirtying up the engine internals”…
I’m a relatively new owner of a 2 litre diesel Ford Duratorq engine that is Euro6 (2017 / 2018).
What do I have in store that isn’t influenced by the kind of diesel I pour into the tank ?
2.0 transits from 17 on have a wet cambelt(its in the oil) and some(quite a few) have been delaminating and snapping, there is a recall for an inspection of the belt on 17 plate vans and ford will change the belt if any signs of delamination, if the belt snaps ford say they will replace the engine as long as it's up to date on servicing, some people have had it done but others say ford wouldn't.
my mates had an inspection a couple of weeks ago and ford said it was fine, a mates of his done about the same time had the belt replaced. my 67 plate has no recall but guessing they'll move onto 67 plates when they get through the 17's.
if you read on facebook and forums it sounds very common but when you think about how many transits are out there it's probably not that high a percentage.
it's meant to be caused by failed regens diluting the oil with diesel which breaks the belt down so could be worsened depending on what sort of driving you do and also by not doing enough oil changes, think ford say 25k but mine gets done every year which is about 15k.
Cheers for the explanation.
Interestingly then that the car when new (not new to me) supposedly has a 2 year / 18,000 mile service interval. But ford chopped it to 12 months and 12,000 miles at some point. Wonder if that's why.
I'll be doing more regular oil + filter changes as insurance! As I tend to run car til it's decrepit and dies. (I don't want that to happen at 60,000 miles !!).
Anyway... back to pricey vs even pricier fuel 👍
