MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
nice one TD
Cheers idave. 😀
The guy who took the test also agreed with you about carb loading being absolute rubbish
So on the GI trip.....
Carrots (allowed vegetable) GI 70 Vs Apple (banned fruit) GI 40
Parsnip GI 98 Vs Cherries GI 24
Sweet corn GI 55 Vs Strawberries GI 40
so if it's not about GI what is it about ????
it's more than simply GI alone. Something can be low GI, ie milk, but still cause an insulin spike. Fructose, the fruit sugar, illicits a different insulin response than other sugars.
iDave - YGM
But also... should I, personally, try and cut down on fruit? What benefits would it have? Currently eat >5 pieces of fruit a day.
I've done some base training over the winter (never more than 1hr at a time)
1hr is pretty short for a base ride isn't it? You must feel pretty un-worked out after that? But well done anyway - it really makes a difference to have good base. Are you taking carbs before/during/after riding?
I had terrible base when I started, so much so that my blood lactate test had NO flat section before lactate concentration went up. Tester had never seen anyone's graph like that. In other words I was always producing lactate greater than rest levels at any intensity.
TSY - I think that the more you reduce the insulin producing things the more benefit you'll get.. so try cutting down rather than eliminating.
As for benefits - are you fat? 🙂
1hr is pretty short for a base ride isn't it? You must feel pretty un-worked out after that? But well done anyway - it really makes a difference to have good base. Are you taking carbs before/during/after riding?
This is what I thought but a lot of it was on rollers or gym bike where my heart rate was always in zone 2.. if you were out on the road this is much harder to achieve.
i've been told that when a lot of cyclists start racing they then neglect the base and prefer to do intervals all the time.. they gradually get more inefficent and lose the base. Very important to do base level rides in between racing
I eat a lot of berries, thought they were a "super food". Should I reduce my intake? Don't have cream with them though!
1hr is pretty short for a base ride isn't it?
depends on what the base is for - ie who the rider is
for new cyclists hours on the bike are important to develop efficiency - which is just one aspect of performance
You must feel pretty un-worked out after that?
actually.. i always felt like i'd worked. base rides of an hour were never really easy (obviosuyl easier than intervals) but it's not a pootle in the park
a lot of people think base is very slow and steady.. I'd say it's more controlled than that (then again i always made sure it was in the upper level of zone 2)
where my heart rate was always in zone 2.. if you were out on the road this is much harder to achieve
It's easier when you have a power meter. I was doing 5.5 hour base rides in z2 almost the whole time. Pedalling down hills with the brakes on and plodding up them in the little ring. Pedalling towards traffic lights with the brakes on whilst changing down is a skill you have to master if you want to beat your previous best average watts 🙂
i've been told that when a lot of cyclists start racing they then neglect the base and prefer to do intervals all the time
I was also told this - and that racers lose performance towards the end of the season because they neglect base.
depends on what the base is for - ie who the rider is
Good point.
three riders who i worked with have won stages on grand tours
2 wore leaders jerseys
the longest base rides i gave them were 3.5 hours
go figure.....
Not arguing, just relating my experiences. Ok so I was training specifically for 24 hour solo at the time.. since then I've done no longer than 4 hours...
Had those riders had done longer rides before you coached them though? (Just wondering).
[i]I was also told this - and that racers lose performance towards the end of the season because they neglect base.[/i]
wouldn't this more likely be because they're knackered and need a rest ?
Kev
idave, you have the patience of a saint. STW regularly makes me want to tear my hair out and im just an onlooker
ive picked and chosen elements of the idave diet, not wholly adopted as ive never been overweight, dont want to lose weight infact i could happily be carrying another stone, so long as its LMM.
im very happy, i have learnt a whole load about diet over the last year
thank you very much
wouldn't this more likely be because they're knackered and need a rest
Dunno!
thank you very much
+100
One of the worlds most eminent exercise physiologists, Timothy Noakes, told me that half of what he knows is probably wrong, but he doesn't know which half.
So I tend to ignore most of what [i]anyone[/i] says, or thinks is 'right' advice and opinion on training. Including myself. It's not a science, it's science based voodoo that can work if you don't rule things out which may sound weird, based on what you're told or what you read.
idave, you [s]have the patience of[/s] [b][i]are[/i][/b] a saint
FTFY
A latter day saint. May the Lord bestow him with the riches he deserves 🙂
follow me DD, I know the true path
invoice in the post 😉
SbZ thinks I have developed a tumor btw, so don't congratulate iDave too much.
What, so three weeks of low GI = cancer? 🙄
iDave... just going to pick your brains a little here as you seem to be answering questions as my other half is on a similar type of diet, and I'm interested in how it works...
As I understand it, the effect of this diet it to limit insulin production by not eating various foods which stimulate it's production. But isn't this triggered by increasing blood sugar levels? Or are there other triggers for this as well?
Also, do you have a source of comparative data for the effects of various foods on insulin levels? Or are the foods that are valid as part of this diet just the ones you have found to work best?
For example, I believe wheat and rice are not allowed during the 6 normal days, however, what about other things like quinoa and buckwheat?
He was saying calories in = calories out, so either I've slashed my calorie intake (I haven't) or I've got a tumor.
I asked him how many calories I was using when I'm not riding, and he didn't reply.
if SBZ was saying calories in = calories out, you can safely dismiss anything else he has to say
if three people ate 2000kcal per day but one via fat, one via protein and one via carbohydrate would they all remain the same size?
I've always maintained it's not necessarily as simple as eat less ride more.
I know fructose (in excess) can lead to liver metabolic issues (as all fructose must be processed by the liver, unlike glucose which can be directly used by other tissues) but I always thought fructose was a far less 'spiking' sugar than glucose and is recommended for diabetics (in moderation obviousley) over other simple sugars.
Admittedly the last time I read up on this was about 6-7 years back, so any chance you could point me towards some more current literature on fructose and insulin ?
Molgrips - I ain't fat 🙂
My understanding of how they caclulate the calorie content of food is that it's not that great a measure of how much energy it provides the human body?
I always thought fructose was a far less 'spiking' sugar than glucose
It's not about how it affects your blood sugar, but how much insulin it makes your pancreas produce.
TSY, if you're not fat then don't worry about it 🙂
I dunno how they calcualte calories, but there's a lot of difference between what effect different foods have on your body, as we are learning.
A week and a half into the diet here, craving sugar madly but resisting so far.
I get up, open the cupboard, gaze at the kids big bag of Haribo for about 30 seconds with a battle raging inside me, close the door and walk away. (so far!) I probably do this about 6 times a day.
Lol @ bedmaker.
Just go on a ride, you can have the sweets then - incentive to get out 🙂
molgrips... but what is the trigger for causing an insulin spike?
Also, are peppers allowed as a veg? They appear to have similar or higher levels of fructose as some fruit, especially berries... and how about tomatoes? They appear to have a lot too...
I'm just trying to work out what the criteria are for selecting foods for this/similar diets...
Dunno. Why would milk cause 6 times more insulin than its sugar content would suggest? Cos it apparently does.
I'm told tomatoes are ok, maybe it's a question of scale. Remember, the diet's not all or nothing. A little bit here and there won't ruin it completely.
molgrips - Member
It's not about how it affects your blood sugar, but how much insulin it makes your pancreas produce.
Fructose has a less stimulatory effect on insulin release than other sugars
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/jcem;89/6/2963
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2714385/?tool=pubmed
funkynickI'm just trying to work out what the criteria are for selecting foods for this/similar diets
iDave says.....
...you follow
molgrips - Member
Dunno. Why would milk cause 6 times more insulin than its sugar content would suggest? Cos it apparently does.
reference to that work ??
funkynick, when I put together this plan, which was not for any benefit to me, I had to make it quick and simple to follow - and effective. I think it is all of those. I'm sure there are minor anomalies as I'm not going to scour every possible food source for insulin responses. I can live with the odd 'error'. There are also much more complex things that can be done to lose fat quickly and keep it off, but those are not on the STW freebie menu!
milk is indeed low GI but paradoxically insulinotropic
so does anyone know why the milk cause the insulin spike then? i read this recently but it didn't explain why.
There are also much more complex things that can be done to lose fat quickly and keep it off
Quicker than 2kg a week?
You are talking about liposuction aren't you?
No, not liposuction, nothing illegal or dangerous, but also not information I'm going to post here.
cinnamon_girl - Member
I eat a lot of berries, thought they were a "super food". Should I reduce my intake? Don't have cream with them though!
Are you a not overweight person trying to become even less overwieght for athletic gain ? If 'No' then eat sensibly but what you like.
If overall health is important to you, then fad diets (those that exclude whole food groups, like the 'iDave plan') will not help.
It's far 'healthier' to carry a few extra kg but enjoy your life than to be a food puritan fussing over every last gramme of what you eat.
As the 'experts' have all said in this thread "this food business, it's a funny old thing" so use common sense: eat healthy, live healthy, think healthy and stick a chilled two fingers up to the "food nazis", even the nice ones 🙂
If overall health is important to you, then fad diets (those that exclude whole food groups, like the 'iDave plan') will not help.
It's far 'healthier' to carry a few extra kg but enjoy your life than to be a food puritan fussing over every last gramme of what you eat.
I don't advise excluding any food group, just some groups, on 6 days each week. One day is a free for all.
Also, I have never agonised over a gram of any food in my life.
And I don't half enjoy my life, including a huge amount of very healthy, well cooked and wine assisted food.
but also not information I'm going to post here.
Every man has his price 🙂
Thanks for the email iDave.
As Monsieur Grips says...
...iDave says
I follow...
molgrips... I've just had a look to see what I can find out the milk insulin spike... and dug up something which seems to suggest there is a similar spike with high protein/low carb foods like meat and eggs. So I think it is a little more complex than just insulin levels...
iDave... I completely appreciate that, and it being a STW freebie I think you are doing an excellent job of at least making people think more about what they eat...
I guess it's just the engineer in me trying to understand what the thought process behind it all is, and then be able to help out my other half with finding things she can eat on her diet.
So is it just insulin levels which were considered for this diet?
No, not liposuction, nothing illegal or dangerous, but also not information I'm going to post here.
I'm intrigued, we'll see how this diet goes then I might call you again.
So is it just insulin levels which were considered for this diet?
So many questions...
molgrips - out of interest have you done a performance test at the begining of you weight loss that can be repeated at the end?
Funkynick - I too would love to know how it really works but I suspect there's a lifetime of science involved. The reason there's little on the internet I think is that not many people really know that much - hence iDave's quote.
I didn't do the performance test - I should have, and I have done them in the past. My best 10 mile TT power output was 328W over 25 mins, my best time at Cwmcarn is 56 minutes and my best race result is 11/80ish in Open. I will let you know when I can beat those three 🙂
MG - obviously any performance gains you make will not be down to a change in diet alone...
No, of course. To be honest training's taken a back seat to making it to work and managing the new diet. I seem ok now though as I'm taking more carbs during exercise, so we'll see. Hopefully a run tonight and some kettle bell exercises now the exercise studio* is fully configured+.
Oh almost forgot, best wattage for a 3 hour base ride was 221W or thereabouts, and for a 3 hour tempo ride 273W although I have no idea how I managed that, musta been on fire that day.
* living room
+ the coffee table's been moved
dd... how else are you supposed to know what should and shouldn't be eaten if you don't understand the basis behind it?
From an example I used above... wheat is not allowed, but what about buckwheat? It's not a grain, but the seeds of the plant are milled for their flour, just like chickpeas can be milled into gram flour.
Just as a tip, you can make fantastic chickpea chapatti's if you are having a curry. I've got the recipe somewhere if anyone is interested.
molgrips... I'm getting that impression too.
I was interested to see at what point you experience a performance drop (within a longer term gain) or if you are able to avoid this.
This is based on my asumption, from your weight & performance stats that you have a fair amount of muscle bulk.
Yeah, I am reasonably muscular I think - less so up top but I have chunky solid legs. Definitely not whippet like at all. Mesomorphic.
I could do a 10 on the way home I suppose. Although perhaps not since I don't have the powertap on currently.
I think I experienced a performance drop last week - I was trashed on the way home on Thursday and even more so on Friday. Felt like I'd ridden 200 miles that day. Did no exercise at the weekend to try and recover. Worked too, I rolled in at a very easy 31kph average 🙂
in a suit and tie with your satchel slung over your shoulder?
if so i think you should 🙂
I'll fit the powertap tonight and come back with some numbers for you, sir.
has the powertap been calibrated?
This is turning into bikeradar
Er, it gets zeroed regularly.
I didn't know there was a calibration procedure.
and dug up something which seems to suggest there is a similar spike with high protein/low carb foods like meat and eggs. So I think it is a little more complex than just insulin levels...
Nutritional lab studies are notoriously difficult to control/compare.
There is so much dependence upon the background nutrition levels of the subjects and how the parameters are measured.
Regarding the "insulin thing" - I'm particularly interetsed in food combinations as I feel that we should think in terms of the GI/Insulin potential of a whole meal rather than it's individual components.
I also agree that iDave has had to make generalisations for the purpose of clarity/brevity and that individual cases will obviously differ and the fine lines bewteen allowed/banned foodstuffs is really for the individual to try and see if they make a difference.
Obviousely where health issues are invoivled 'try it and see' is not a good option !
Anyway, Q for molgrips - have you ever tried vitamin B/chromium supplements to kick in the fat burning ?? Would be interested to hear anyone's experience of this approach......
No, not tried those.
Only supplements I've taken are:
L-Carnitine - inconclusive but really seemed to slow me down at the top end - no idea if that was the amount of base I was doing at the time or not.
HMB - no idea if it worked or not, I didn't end up a beefcake.
Ribose - on its own - unsure, but Torq recovery drink that contains it is rocket fuel. Or rocket re-fuel...
molgrips are you racing this season?
No. I'm in Germany until end of July then we've got a kid on the way mid August so there won't be much opportunity. Might do something like the Oktoberfest in Bristol or some of the late season Gorricks.
I'll see if there's a road race in Germany I can do 🙂
trickydisco - where/with who did you have your performance test done. I'm looking to do something similar and would also want to include a running one.
Aw whut? 2 Whole pages to read through since this morning?
*puts kettle on*
I wouldn't bother jamie - same old same old bollox, including from me
Having pasta and meatballs with parmesan cheese tonight. All washed down with cheap Chilean red.
Pudding is two packs of Chewits in front of a box set of the Sopranos.
Anyone says that's not allowed gets "whacked".
same old same old bollox, including from me
mebbe, but damn fine bollies they are....
It's an illuminating discussion with good points made by all - eat to live, live to ride 😀
trickydisco - where/with who did you have your performance test done. I'm looking to do something similar and would also want to include a running one.
truezone in Bristol
http://www.truezone.co.uk/Home.html
I wouldn't bother jamie - same old same old bollox, including from me
*turns off kettle*
I expect your kitchen is full of steam now Jamie. I hope the wallpaper is ok?
Luckily I keep the kettle in the sauna.
*I knew that*
Same old shite. Same old pisstakers. Same old taggers.
All from [i]The Big Book of Bollocks[/i]
Feeling today's 40 miles in the legs. Hope I haven't gone off too hard this week.
Oh and Mrs Grips bought some scales.
88kg. So 2 or 3 down, or maybe even 4 - I was 91.5 ish before I left for Munich, no idea what happened between then and now.
Same old shite. Same old pisstakers. Same old taggers.
Someone appears to have sand in their vagina.
vagina.
You do remember what one of those is? 🙂
Read de tread x
Read the thread?
Why on earth would I do that when I can just toss insults at you?
*puts kettle back on*
😀
This may be of interest:
Thanks CaptJon, very interesting... although it's interesting that they note that while there is some tie up between GI and Insulin response, it's not a perfect indicator.
This quote from the paper
A low-fat diet based on less-refined, carbohydrate-rich foods with relatively low ISs may help enhance satiety and aid weight loss as well as improve blood glucose and lipid control
seems to be agreeing with iDave.
can someone send me a copy of the plan please - email is my username @gmail.com
Just realised, I've been over 91kg for the last 18 months, and most of that was 93-94kg, so this is good progress for me. I think a lot of that 94kg was muscle tho but a lot wasn't.
Nice link CapnJon.
Just realised, I've been over 91kg for the last 18 months, and most of that was 93-94kg.
So you have been over 93kg for the last 18 months then?
I think a lot of that 94kg was muscle tho
Hard to say really without a proper BF measurement, but remember skeletal muscle will never usually be more than [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle ]42% of your total mass.[/url]*
*for the average dude.