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Always question TJ's authority! You learn loads!
Poll Mac De - Polmadie
https://newsnet.scot/archive/scotlands-language-myths-4-gaelic-is-only-a-highland-language/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/11/ian-jack-saddened-by-scotland-going-gaelic
Two Gaelic schools under increasing demand and expanding in Glasgow, Some folk obviously interested in maintaining some culture.
The National Theatre of Scotland has a Gaelic Program and employs Gaelic artists.
I guess any language that borrows and makes words up is evolving to survive. Dismissal of any culture is just a bit ignorant.
We should be promoting/encouraging/preserving both Scots and Gaelic (including all of their dialects and variations). Why make it one vs the other?
From that link it basically says Gaelic was being displaced by Scots from the 13th and 14th century. I mean yeah it obviously was well spoken but not for at least 700 years in some places! That's my point.
Maybe we should just go back to grunting and painting things on cave walls if we really want to keep it real.
Why do we need to preserve them?
Truthfully. How much of a cultural connection do you think most Scots have with Gaelic? Probably as much as most of Canada and Australia.
Maybe we should just go back to grunting and painting things on cave walls if we really want to keep it real.
Sounds like Lanarkshire.
Sounds like Lanarkshire.
Yep.
You often see savages atop Loudoun Hill gazing jealousy eastwards and coveting our fancy caves and our grunting and painting skills.
First cast ol boy! 🤣🤣🤣
I didn’t have it in me to disappoint ye. 😉
🤣👌🏻
😀
Two Gaelic schools under increasing demand and expanding in Glasgow, Some folk obviously interested in maintaining some culture.
Alternatively, they go because of the smaller class sizes than normal schools and Gaelic is just something they have to deal with
"There’s nothing makes Scottish nationalists happier than watching monoglots frothing that they haven’t managed to kill off our culture and native languages."
It's impressive how many false premises and non sequiturs you've managed to squeeze into one, chippy sentence.
If it causes the Scots language to diminish then this is an issue that needs to be addressed.
I'm English and now live in Scotland. I was previously unaware of Scots and its origins. It's quite fascinating, ye ken? Take the word 'ken', which means 'know'. The German verb for 'to know' is 'kennen'. There are also links to Scandi languages with words and pronunciations, Polis being one of them! Other similar words are stoor, man (for husband), oot, burn (for a stream), bairn (for a child). These are my own observations from watching Scandi Noir, so might not be 100% accurate!
Gaslic markings in the lowlands is a piece of nonsense and we all know it. It never was the language, no one speaks it. they have to make up Gaelic names for places like falkirk. Its nonsense
Never been to Balerno TJ???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balerno
Scotroutes / Craig W - really? Many of these place names are made up and IIRC the "gaelic" word they use for "falkirk"is not "Egglesbreth"
Its of no great importance and I don't really object to doing it but it remains a nonsense to invent gaelic names for places that never had them.
Two Gaelic schools under increasing demand and expanding in Glasgow, Some folk obviously interested in maintaining some culture.
Noting to do with culture. Free after school care and taxis to school are a big draw
I think the issue some people have with this is that it serves no practical purpose but is part of a political agenda.
By 'practical purpose' I mean making things understandable to people who would not otherwise have understood them.
I'm on the fence myself but I understand why people object to bilingual signage on that basis especially when it comes to spending public funds.
IIRC the “gaelic” word they use for “falkirk”is not “Egglesbreth”
Best not look what the Welsh use for Mold then...
Noting to do with culture. Free after school care and taxis to school are a big draw
Generally smaller class sizes too.
*I might have made that last one up.
Not just that last one...!
this charade that we all spoke it and that it would somehow enrich our lives is a bit much
Is that's what's happening? I don't spend a lot of time in Scotland but it would seem more likely that the Gaelic signs etc are there for the benefit of those who do speak it. The benefit being that they don't need to feel excluded and marginalised in their own country. If you let a minority language exist only in part of the country then that linguistic group can become a sort of shadow community, the language only belongs in the families and pubs etc that already know it, and it can become exclusionary and a bit of a negative divisive thing. If on the other hand you spread it all over the country then it's much more normalised and becomes part of life. Here in Wales it's really not a problem unless you are recruiting and need a Welsh speaker for translations or service provision. But even then life goes on.
Of course Gaelic isn't the only Scottish language, and that needs to be recognised. At first I was sceptical of the claim of Scots as a language but I've come around.
I quite like it, it's another thing that identifies us. If we only ever spent money on what the masses want, the money would never make it out of the central belt.
I know a couple of families with kids in the Gaelic medium school in Kilmarnock, the draw for both was the benefits of learning another language at such a young age, and the well known educational advantage that brings, regardless of what use the language will be.
I used to think the north east was Pictland and there was no Gaelic up here, Doric was the historic mother tounge. Then on researching I found a lot of the place names were Gaelic like Culter.
So don’t believe the hype it was a very widespread language in Scotland so part of our cultural heritage.
Kilmarnock
Good example of Lowlands Gaelic
I know a couple of families with kids in the Gaelic medium school in Kilmarnock, the draw for both was the benefits of learning another language at such a young age, and the well known educational advantage that brings, regardless of what use the language will be.
That's why our kids are in Welsh school.
It gets a very good name, been in place for about 15 years now, in an area of extremely high poverty- if anyone was ever unfortunate enough to see 'the scheme' on the box, that's where it is.
IIRC the “gaelic” word they use for “falkirk”is not “Egglesbreth”
The standard Gaelic name is An Eaglais Bhreac. Egglesbreth is clearly just an inaccurate transliteration. Just as the standard English name has evolved from the Scots name (Faukirke).
Not just that last one…!
So all those years ago I imagined the news reader mangling the words "IBM computer factory" into a story about the Greenock plant on Telefios then?
https://translate.google.com/?hl=en#en/gd/Computer%20factory
Changing the English to be phonetically compatible does not make a new word. You can either go down the French route and leave a language in stasis with contrived changes or else accept that language eveloves and eventually dies as it loses its greater identity.
The fact you openly say that you didn't believe Scots was a unique language and that you have "come around" to accepting what is an absolute fact just shows your ignorance on the matter. Scots Gaelic should not be compared to Welsh.
So don’t believe the hype it was a very widespread language in Scotland so part of our cultural heritage.
As I said before, Gaelic was it its peak in the 12th century and then began to decline in favour of Scots thereafter. Culturally there's more of a connection to Scots than Gaelic for most of the country and even then you can't understand half of what's being said. Easy job to revive Scots (since we can at least understand a decent proportion) yet they chase Gaelic?
Dinnae miss oot Dundee
So all those years ago I imagined the news reader mangling the words “IBM computer factory” into a story about the Greenock plant on Telefios then?
So IBM is a name so it stays, computer is from latin and so is factory, so it's hardly a problem that they are used in Gaelic when they are also borrowed into English in the first place. But that wasn't my point - I was having a dig at this statement:
beyond a few Braveheart fans nobody else speaks it
..which seems to be untrue from what I've read.
The fact you openly say that you didn’t believe Scots was a unique language and that you have “come around” to accepting what is an absolute fact just shows your ignorance on the matter. Scots Gaelic should not be compared to Welsh.
Sorry, I don't follow. Are you disagreeing that Scots is a distinct language, or are you saying that the social situation regarding Gaelic is not like Welsh? Or are you making both points?
Road signs should be functional. There is no need to have dual language signs when to my best knowledge every Gaelic speaker in Scotland understands English. Even back in the 1960s when on holiday in rural Lewis the local kids spoke English as well as Gaelic. The only time Gaelic was essential was when giving orders to dogs. The only place I think they are maybe justified is the Gaelic heartlands where the signs should arguably be in Gaelic for the locals and with English for visitors. In the central belt? Just a gimmick. There's probably more Polish speakers in Glasgow than Gaelic speakers.
It's a bit of a regret personally that my mother who was a native speaker never taught my siblings and I the language. While my dad didn't speak it I think with my mum at home while we were young we could have learned both English and Gaelic as children. None of my cousins speak Gaelic either despite in one case both parents being native speakers. I don't think it was seen as important back in the 1960s.
Whether or not the Gaelic language prospers will not depend on road signs.
Do you think that the opinion of non-Gaelic speakers on Gaelic is even important? This is a bit like men deciding what feminism should be, or white people telling black people about racism - isn't it?
There is no need to have dual language signs when to my best knowledge every Gaelic speaker in Scotland understands English. Even back in the 1960s when on holiday in rural Lewis the local kids spoke English as well as Gaelic. The only time Gaelic was essential was when giving orders to dogs.
And so by your rationale you reduce a whole language to something not fit for human discourse. I agree with molgrips and the previous post
If you let a minority language exist only in part of the country then that linguistic group can become a sort of shadow community, the language only belongs in the families and pubs etc that already know it, and it can become exclusionary and a bit of a negative divisive thing.
There is no need to have dual language signs when to my best knowledge every Gaelic speaker in Scotland understands English. Even back in the 1960s when on holiday in rural Lewis the local kids spoke English as well as Gaelic. The only time Gaelic was essential was when giving orders to dogs.
And this is why some Scottish people have a dislike for the English.
"Do you think that the opinion of non-Gaelic speakers on Gaelic is even important? This is a bit like men deciding what feminism should be, or white people telling black people about racism – isn’t it?"
Well I,d guess almost everyone o this thread is a non Gaelic speaker but wasn't stopped from having their say.
Pinpointing which languages were spoken where and when is far from easy. There's a lot of evidence that Gaelic was spoken in the south of Ayrshire and Galloway until the middle 18th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galwegian_Gaelic
Signage is replaced according to natural wastage.
I don't think that's the case, they replaced all the ones in my neck of the woods at once, giving translated gaelic names to places that have never had a gaelic name, which is a verly large amount of places indeed. I'm sure there's an foi about how much it all cost.
Drac - bog all to do with the English. This is one Scot commenting on what they saw. It's true as well, all Gaels are bilingual. They're absolutely welcome to their language too but even in Ayrshire (seeing as people like to bring it up so much) at least 200 if not 300 years have passed since it died out.
This is a bit like men deciding what feminism should be, or white people telling black people about racism – isn’t it?
Very much. Only not in the way you imagine. You're the one telling Scots how to run their affairs despite "only just coming round" to believing Scots is even a language. Do you have any idea how ignorant that comes across as? THAT is what gets Scots backs up, ignorant English/others commenting on stuff as if they are some sort of authority on the matter when in fact they know nothing.
And my point about Gaelic, the second one.
I think some of you are missing the point. It's not because a Gaelic speaker might make a wrong turning, or mistake the police for the butchers van, it is about a more gentle "equal respect". And the tourists love it. We need them. Now more than ever
bigjim
I don’t think that’s the case, they replaced all the ones in my neck of the woods at once
Yep, that's how they generally replace road signs- they'll replace individual damaged ones or outdated ones as-and-when but otherwise they're more or less fleeted and get replaced in blocks, to save on crew time and traffic disruption.
We were on South Uist a couple of years ago & went to the museum near Lochboisdale, a load of schoolkids came in with the teachers & all the kids/teachers were speaking Gaelic (mind you it couldv'e been Icelandic for all I knew) But It sounded absolutely wonderful, in the fact that they were speaking the language of their fathers & therefore retaining part of the the history of their land.
Spot on hels. 👌🏻
They’re absolutely welcome to their language too but even in Ayrshire (seeing as people like to bring it up so much) at least 200 if not 300 years have passed since it died out.
Seems a good idea to revive it then.
Drac
And this is why some Scottish people have a dislike for the English.
Squirrelking
Drac – bog all to do with the English
Then
THAT is what gets Scots backs up, ignorant English/others commenting on stuff as if they are some sort of authority on the matter when in fact they know nothing.
On this, as said the cost won't be high. I have no issue with road signs and other Gaelic branding. I can see why it is done.
From my point of view I don't feel a strong attachment to it as a language and don't feel it is something I should be learning. I would rather see my kids learning a language which would be more beneficial to them or others they confer with on a more regular basis. From the point of view of societal integration, Scottish kids might be better served learning Polish.
Isn't this a case of an English guy (Drac) telling a Scot (Squirrelking) what the Scots think of English people and about Gaelic? #britsplaining
Or have I misunderstood who's who?