Or just a load of STWers casting aspersions?
The amount of arse-covering in the media is interesting. Even in today's Cycling Weekly, Ned Boulting talks about how it's never certain whether doping is occurring or not, Pog seems lovely and is obviously a fantastic athlete, but finishes with a paragraph pointing out that Pog's backroom is filled with the dodgiest people in cycling. Boulting's obviously covering himself ready for when the scandal breaks. 😀
He says he put out career best power numbers but this was directly at the finish. He’d not looked at power files etc. Just what was on the computer and made his own interpretation. He may have done for the 45+minutes of the climb due to the way it was ridden whereas normally climbs go steady then stop starty for the leaders as they try and find a weakness. That was full on from the bottom. I don’t agree Vin was faster than ever but he was clearly at his current limit.
Vingegaard put down the all time second best climbing performance, as confirmed after the ride. Pogacar rode with no hands casually taking a bidon while Vingegaard was going full gas, before disappearing in to the sunset with 5km left (the best all time climbing performance).
Vingegaard is just as superhuman, especially considering his build up to the race, but Pogacar could at least pretend that riding off from the worlds best is at least a little difficult 🙂 The ease he has pulled away from the front of GT stages this year is incredible
and to see an 80kg, 6 foot 3 rider pulling really hard on the flat (expected) and then continuining up the climbs, that to me is a bit more difficult to believe
80Kg still fairly capable of climbing well, 'only' have to empty the tank to halfway up to discourage attacks before limping in job done.
In context of thge full climb rarely competitve on the big mountain stages, but they don't have to do that. Don't even need to get a good time.
Of course none of this is evidence of cheating. Its just not normal.
This is all it comes down to. The amount of people going out their way to explain how normal it is when it so blatantly isn't, is a bit surreal.
Nobody knows if there's anything underhand going on, but it's curious to say the least.
You've also got to remember that Vins boss is a self admitted liar. How do we get everyone onto talking about others. Oh yeah our crocked GC rider just put out the best numbers ever and was ridden away from. Everyone now talking about Pog the doper. He probably wasn't putting out remarkable numbers for him in reality.
He may well be doping or he may just be one of those freaks who can do this given the right training stimlus. I've got to the point with it that it doesn't matter until it's actually a thing.
It's all far less dodgy looking than Lance coming back or the general EPO era when everyone including the public knew about it but they had to fudge a test that just made a few less people die in their sleep so we all knew the best were on EPO. It was one hell of a show though until Armstrong strangled the life out of it on an industrial scale.
This is all it comes down to. The amount of people going out their way to explain how normal it is when it so blatantly isn’t, is a bit surreal.
I'm not arguing that though just pointing out that like beating the time up the climb by 3 minutes wasn't that outlandish considering the way it was ridden. Potentially for someone to ride it was but it's not suprising it was that big a difference when you compare how it was ridden when Pantani set the record. I know full well the history of cycling from the 90s onwards.
Same with the bit about previous GT winners. None of them bar Pog had a good run in to this race or wern't even racing for GC. It explains the difference between them but doesn't mean all or some or most may or may not be doping. History tells us if the winners are so is everyone else down to 20th place (choose any random position you please)
How do we know this isn't normal?
Have we ever had "normal"
"Of course none of this is evidence of cheating. Its just not normal.
This is all it comes down to. The amount of people going out their way to explain how normal it is when it so blatantly isn’t, is a bit surreal.
Nobody knows if there’s anything underhand going on, but it’s curious to say the least"
Exactly, it's all questions and no answers.
How do we know this isn’t normal?
Have we ever had “normal”
The definition of normal:
"conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected."
There has been a fairly typical style of racing for the past few decades, with some exceptions during the Armstrong era. What we're seeing now far surpasses what we seen from Armstrong and Pantani imo.
The type of racing we're seeing now hasn't really happened since Merckx and was strongly considered to be impossible in the modern era.
People are playing it down, saying there's just no competition, yet the riders themselves are telling us the racing is harder than ever. Bardet claimed the performance he put in this year would have given him a top 5 position 10 years ago. Even MVdP was surprised he was being caught so easily.
Every metric you measure it by tells us the racing is faster than ever.
Pog is dominating every single race, not because everybody else is slower, but because he's either one of the greatest natural talents we've ever seen (alongside Jonas, and perhaps Remco) or he's found a considerable athletic advantage over the rest, whether it be ethical or not.
Nobody can possibly claim there hasn't been a massive shift in pro cycling in the past 4 or 5 years. It's night and day.
You then look at his team, and to see an 80kg, 6 foot 3 rider pulling really hard on the flat (expected) and then continuining up the climbs, that to me is a bit more difficult to believe.
This same point could have been made about WvA. Was it last year's Tour when he was dropped having done an uphill lead-out for the team, then, somehow made an instant miraculous recovery to get back to them and do more work for Jonas and putting more stress into the rest of the leading bunch? (I may be misremembering so apologies if so...I'm getting old 🙁 )
I will view, as ever, with the hope it's clean, until shown definitively otherwise.
WvA in 2021 on the TDF, won a mountain stage, a sprint stage and a time trial stage. Same year he also won:
- Tour of Britain
- Gent–Wevelgem
- Amstel Gold Race
Who knows what they are on?
Don't forget that Miguel Angel Lopez got banned for taking what is essentially an IVF treatment:
and Simona Halep got banned for taking an anti anemia drug that was undetectable until 2017:
Bicarbonate of Soda has long been known to give a significant boost to athletes, but in quantities that mess your stomach up pretty badly. Some clever clogs has encapsulated the bicarb so it gets past the stomach and into the gut where it can still do it’s thing without sending you running for the toilets. Maurten ABC is the most publicised product. Like chugging uncooked tapioca, so I have been told.
A cricketer has been pinged for Ostarine, of course he claims contaminated bilberry supplements. I have blood tests a couple of times a year, when I get the follow ups I ask what they were looking for and what they found. So far they have never looked for or had me try to boost my bilberry levels. Perhaps I’m missing out.
Pog’s a massive zone 2 afficianado isn’t he? That’ll it explain it.
He’s changed coach, not sure how/if that has changed the Z2 emphasis though I’d imagine there’s still a fair bit!
(believe heat acclimatisation and TT position were mentioned)
There was an article somewhere last year about the fact that Vingegaard and Pogacar are able to metabolise lactic acid much quicker that other athletes
Inigo San Milan has said this of Pogacar.
Pog’s a massive zone 2 afficianado isn’t he? That’ll it explain it.
Well it apparently helps to increase the mitochondria which clear/reuse Lactate. Though I believe his Zone 2 training is at the top end of Zone 2 rather than my twiddling about admiring the scenery.
bilberry supplements
Isn't beetroot or cherry in vogue just now?
I hope they are all clean and I try and just enjoy the racing. But these past couple of years it has been very hard to believe there isn't something going on.
If I was a bit dodgy and needed to recharge, I'd be doing some strenuous erm.. zone 2 and billberry, somewhere out of the way, while WADA is massively committed elsewhere.
There has been a fairly typical style of racing for the past few decades, with some exceptions during the Armstrong era. What we’re seeing now far surpasses what we seen from Armstrong and Pantani imo.
Have the best and strongest team and ride on the front all day. US postal did it. SKY perfected it. Not Normal but can be put down to money (yes yes and industrial doping). Since Indurain it had been much more open until Armstrong dominated.
Nobody can possibly claim there hasn’t been a massive shift in pro cycling in the past 4 or 5 years. It’s night and day.
Who arrived in 2019? Pog ;0)
The first few years of Pog were great becuase UAE chose to just let chaos reign regularly while all the other GC riders and teams panicked becuase nobody was taking charge because that's what you did. Pog then did Pog things to ensure he won. Jumbo got the better of them by having the best team and 2 of the best GC riders as it turned out.
History tells us all the top guys are doping but I'm not prepared to throw them all under the bus anymore without any whispers or evidence of it beyond XYZ performance is not normal. Would I be surprised? Of course not. Happy to point out though that Pogs "easy" wins this year also have the factor of what has been a perfect year for him. No accidents, illnesses that appear to have affected him BUT have affected all his competition.
I'd love him to go to Paris Roubaix next year and have a crack in GC body type and then return again with training specifically for it which is what he seemed to do for Flanders.
I'm loving the suggestions that it's because he's training more in Z2, drinking cherry or beetroot juice and has improved his TT position. Where's that straw, I can't quite clutch it? Btw, it's sour cherry juice for the real magic.
peteimprezaFull Member
@IdleJon Do you have a link to the article?
No, sorry, I read it via Readly.
Pogacar is probably close to his physical peak. His strength, power and endurance all nearing that level where age is yet to have negative impacts. Sagan early on was doing the same for a few years before age inevitably started to impact.
I don`t think its the riders in their early/mid twenties who should come under suspicion when they are winning, but the old riders in their mid/late 30s who are still getting onto the podium who should be raising more suspicion.
It's a good point I never made.
It's not "normal" for 22 year olds to win the Tour. It's happened but not often and I'd hazard a guess Ullrich was the last then Fignon. Younger riders in the "normal" era had to wait until they matured and could cope with riding a Tour. Let alone be allowed near the proper training or medicine cabinet.
What's changed? Is it they are on a doping program from Junior ranks or have they realised with far greater use and knowledge of power meters they can cope with it just fine. Is it going to knock their careers over by 32 rather than 38?
As for the older riders are we suspicious of Thomas for getting on the Giro podium at 38 but being 10 minutes down?
The amount of arse-covering in the media is interesting. Even in today’s Cycling Weekly, Ned Boulting talks about how it’s never certain whether doping is occurring or not, Pog seems lovely and is obviously a fantastic athlete, but finishes with a paragraph pointing out that Pog’s backroom is filled with the dodgiest people in cycling.
Shamelessly pulled from eslewhere:
Pogacar's team manager and sports director.
1998 Tour of Romandie, Gianetti quit the race sighting “sickness”. He fell unconscious and was rushed to a hospital. The two doctors who treated Gianetti did several tests on him, but they suspected he had been injected PFCs. PFCs have a tremendous effect of carrying oxygen; it can carry oxygen five times the rate of hemoglobin.
2004-2011 Gianetti and Matxin were team managers of Saunier Duval team. Several riders were sanctioned for doping violations that occurred during his tenure as directeur sportif, including Riccardo Riccò and Juan José Cobo. Another rider, Piepoli, later admitted he was also part of the doping program.
Teammate of GIANETTI, Stéphane Heulot, described the situation in SDP team in 2010: “Doping is so ingrained in certain managers like Gianetti, that they can’t conceive of cycling any other way.”
2011-2014 Gianetti then formed the ‘Geox-TMC’ team: Juan José Cobo won the 2011 Vuelta a España, but in July 2019 he was stripped of this title after being found guilty of doping with EPO. Following this, in July 2014 Dennis Menchov lost his tdf results from 2009, 2010 and 2012 when he was also banned for 2 years for doping.
2014-2016 Gianetti and Matxin were then managers of Lampre-Merida team: In 2014 Diego Ullissi received a suspension for a doping violation. L-M was involved in the Mantova doping investigation by CONI, and 3 riders were implicated, including a 2 year ban for Alessandro Ballan. Michele Scarponi received his second doping suspension whilst at L-M, managed by Gianetti and Matxin. Lampre-Merida got a new sponsor in 2017 and became Team UAE.
History tells us all the top guys are doping but I’m not prepared to throw them all under the bus anymore without any whispers or evidence of it beyond XYZ performance is not normal.
History tells us the guys looking after Pogacar have been part of some of the worst doping scandals in recent years. Menchov, Cobo, Ballan, Scaponi and the king of them all Riccò (remember the CERA and outrageous blood transfusions).
Shamelessly pulled from eslewhere:
Pogacar’s team manager and sports director.
Yeah, but on the other hand we have cherry juice!
Cherry juice is clearly cancelled out by Pog's horribly un-aero position 😉 😀
edit to the above: Iban Mayo is also on the list
History tells us the guys looking after Pogacar have been part of some of the worst doping scandals in recent years. Menchov, Cobo, Ballan, Scaponi and the king of them all Riccò (remember the CERA and outrageous blood transfusions).
Jeez, that does put it in perspective. Having tasted success that way, it's tough to imagine them trying to do it all clean now. A lion never changes its pyjamas, and all that!
Jeez, that does put it in perspective. Having tasted success that way, it’s tough to imagine them trying to do it all clean now. A lion never changes its pyjamas, and all that!
It would ironic if a bunch of dopers went clean and managed to find a legal way to supercharge their whole team.
Ned Boultings article in Cycling Weekly was interesting, definite arse covering. His fellow reporter at ITV4, Matt Rendell said that in his view, performance directors were like tax advisors, they'd look for any loophole that could exploit, without actually breaking the law (although sailing very close).
Like all physically demanding sports, the top people will admit to using whatever they legally can. Theres were few surprises when it was identified how many top UK cyclists had asthma.
Was it Wiggins or Froome who was taking Salbutamol? Medication typically for very chronic and unwell asthma sufferers - not guys racing the TDF.
Nothing such as this has ever come out regarding Pogacar or Vingegaard - let's just be grateful and enjoy these great cyclists.
It’s a good point I never made.
It’s not “normal” for 22 year olds to win the Tour. It’s happened but not often and I’d hazard a guess Ullrich was the last then Fignon. Younger riders in the “normal” era had to wait until they matured and could cope with riding a Tour. Let alone be allowed near the proper training or medicine cabinet.
What’s changed? Is it they are on a doping program from Junior ranks or have they realised with far greater use and knowledge of power meters they can cope with it just fine. Is it going to knock their careers over by 32 rather than 38?
I think its the team putting trust in them (because they are looking at their stats). Previously they would need to prove themselves on the road which would take years as teams wouldnt take a gamble on an unknown or someone who could win a junior race.
Cavendish said sprinting has changed, all about who can lay down the sprint power numbers in training these days whereas he earnt his way up by winning sprints despite not having the best top trump stats.
I don`t think its the riders in their early/mid twenties who should come under suspicion when they are winning, but the old riders in their mid/late 30s who are still getting onto the podium who should be raising more suspicion.
Traditionally, the accepted wisdom was that you needed to learn the ropes in Grand Tours - you don't just turn up and win a 3-week Tour when you've only just got into the pro ranks which was always the point of the White Jersey for best young rider.
Winners were the mature riders who had the experience and knowledge gained from years of slogging away in support of a team leader.
History tells us the guys looking after Pogacar have been part of some of the worst doping scandals in recent years. Menchov, Cobo, Ballan, Scaponi and the king of them all Riccò (remember the CERA and outrageous blood transfusions).
This is where cycling is interesting - very few people have ever been truly banned. They pop up a couple of years later doing the same shit in a different place. For example, Vinokourov manages Astana Qazaqstan (and therefore Cav). Cav's previous sprint coach was Erik Zabel:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/29/cycling-erik-zabel-doping-resigns
Yes that Zabel. I'm not accusing Cav of doping, simply saying how thoroughly intertwined it all is. It's more than the 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon - you only ever need to go 1 or 2 degrees to find a (former) doper connected with anyone in cycling.
Sky, in spite of their vocal "no-one connected with doping" nonsense when they formed, very quickly found out they had a thoroughly embedded set of former / ex dopers in their midst including the very questionable use of Dr Geert Leinders:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jan/22/geert-leinders-life-ban-team-sky-doctor
It's EVERYWHERE. Everyone who was cycling anytime from the 80's up to early 2000's either was doping or knew about it. The nonsense about "oh but Lance was worse cos he destroyed careers..." is the edge of the tip of the iceberg - all throughout amateur cycling, junior ranks etc were team managers, doctors and fellow riders going "here you are, just take this for recovery" and "if you take this you can support the team better". Millar talks about it quite openly in his book, about how he held on and held on before eventually the choice is "dope and stay in the team, get paid well, ride big races vs don't dope and we sack you and your name gets out as someone who's not a team player, someone who doesn't support the team".
And the whole cycling structure is built on a total house of cards - clawing around desperately year-on-year for sponsorship, knowing that sponsors aren't going to be interested if you're not winning so it means the whole thing is built on results and winning which in turn fosters a win-at-all-costs culture. And that includes doping.
^ Absolutely on the ingrained history and struggling to survive financially.
I seriously doubt Cav has a clean career
I’d disagree slightly on saying all teams have strong historical doping links. I can’t find dodgy history in VLaB staff for example. That isn’t to say they are squeaky clean but at least historically they aren’t stuffed full of rampant doping history like UAE or Astana/ Vino. It’s more of a mixed bag nowadays and most Pro Tour teams are at least making an effort whilst trying to survive
I enjoyed the tour. Have followed cycling since around 1990, I do watch with some cynicism, but am the same for all sports…
still surprised there is a whole thread about Pog yet I’ve seen no mention of Jonas Abrahamsen who gained 20kg in a year and suddenly was flying, riding in polka dots for ?10 stages.
what does a 28 year old do to gain that much weight, which also helps him grow 6cm? ?
It’s put down to eating properly leading to a delayed puberty… so he was a pro cyclist at 27 yet hadn’t fully gone through puberty?
History tells us the guys looking after Pogacar have been part of some of the worst doping scandals in recent years. Menchov, Cobo, Ballan, Scaponi and the king of them all Riccò (remember the CERA and outrageous blood transfusions).
Now do Cav's team... (ps don't forget the bribes)
(sorry already done I see)
I’d disagree slightly on saying all teams have strong historical doping links. I can’t find dodgy history in VLaB staff for example
[cough]Rabobank[cough]
Who brought us Robert Gesink, Steven Kruijswijk, Wilco Kelderman amongst others on other teams now. No suggestion they are doping but it's a direct link in the team back to when the team had issues.
I had to look Management people who are listed on PCS from when Rasmussen was there. Frans Massen who was there from 2004.
was taking Salbutamol?
I can genuinely, hand on heart, swear on whatever you care to nominate, that Salbutamol has absolutely zero performance enhancing properties*
*I may, of course, only be referring to my own non-existent cycling performance 😉
PS: I'm asthmatic, very well controlled, and I still carry a Salbutamol inhaler everywhere...for performance gains obvs
I’ll seconds the salbutamol. I don’t take it but am familiar with the case ;-). There was a surprisingly high probability of at least one positive test in a grand tour for riders taking salbutamol chronically at the permitted dose regimen, being very dehydrated, and being tested every day. WADAs approach to the latter was woeful.
Salbutamol is a bit weird. My daughter is a very good runner (English schools level); she’s asthmatic and needs her inhaler.
Other daughter is a ballerina and also needs her inhaler. It’s a strange one, I watch them in the winter and they struggle, but then they do winter training camp in Cyprus and Tenerife and they’re back to normal. I definitely think our climate can interfere with people’s breathing and the warmer cleaner air helps relieve it. Obviously Froome doesn’t fall into that camp.
That’s the same as me w00dster, my poor lungs can’t cope with the cold anymore. I have a ten degree rule now when it comes to outdoor exercise, if it’s under 10 degrees I don’t!
I’m asthmatic & would also say it has little effect on breathing unless your bronchials are constricted, though I think it was the American college of sports medicine who found that approximately 20% endurance athletes suffer from exercise induced asthma, so goes some to explaining why there are so many TUES.
HOWEVER… some studies have suggested that salbutamol has an anabolic effect at sufficiently high levels, which is why Froome came under suspicion at the Vuelta a few years ago. From memory, I think Sky had to demonstrate the hydration levels were pivotal to any adverse finding to get him off the hook.
In the interest of balance it also has to be said that some studies also demonstrate no athletic benefit whatsoever from salbutamol at any level.
I used to train with a lot of very good people in SW London years ago , with a lot of longish interval sessions over , I guess, a 5 year period for me. A lot of those people, myself included , ended up with sports induced asthma thanks to the effort put in , in decidedly nonoptimal air
He's more than likely a cheat. Sports science stays ahead of testing programs
Nick Harris who helped expose city, has investigated Team Sky/Wiggins/Froome and its pretty conclusive https://twitter.com/sportingintel
Every tour winner from the last 10 years and the next will be exposed, much like Armstrong
From memory, I think Sky had to demonstrate the hydration levels were pivotal to any adverse finding to get him off the hook.
Not quite. It was the combination of dehydration, drug accumulation on daily dosing, and multiple testing. The multiple testing was important, a single 3% positive rate for dehydration on any day, turns into a 50% rate of failure if tested daily over a three week grand tour. I should know, as I wrote Froome’s defence.
Exercise induced asthma is a thing. It’s relatively easy to diagnose via testing.
Philosophical question(s) about doping, please...
If, say, a vegetable (let's say beetroot for the lolz) is found to contain a wonder ingredient. At what point is it doping?
Eating so much of it you turn purple?
Refining it down to a powder and smashing a load of it?
Refining it down to a powder of just the miracle ingredient and consuming loads of it?
Refining it down to a powder of just the miracle ingredient and injecting it?
Developing a synthetic version of the miracle ingredient and injecting it?
To actually address the thread title, I really want to believe they are clean.
If the wonder ingredient isn't on the banned list you can consume as much of it as you want.
In tact, as a professional, you absolutely should be consuming all that is legal and performance enhancing. There is no room for sentimentality. Professional sport is about winning not taking part or taking the moral high ground. I have no issues with that.
