[Closed] Please explain Veganism to me . . .

As much as possible I suppose, I thought that was the point of organic certification.

You're broadly right, though "organic" is more to do with animal welfare, in the UK at any rate. I'd have to look it up, but IIRC there are limits rather than outright bans on things like pesticides.

The Soil Association website is the place to go if you want to find out what's actually in your meat. Er, so to speak.

Your argument is basically "I don't understand it and it sounds a bit funny."

FWIW the thing that really put me off processed foods was watching an episode of How It Works concerning the production of vegetable oil (yes, it was all systems go that day at Chez Zilog). I appreciate that all the solvents used (and hydrochloric acid in the case of HVP) are neutralised and don't appear in the food you eat - it just all seemed so [i]unnecessary[/i] to me. Obviously this applies equally to veggie/non-veggie food.

HOUSE!

I make no apologies for my love of pork products!

So is it better or worse to avoid eating something you're not sure about, or just blindly carry on eating it anyway?

It's better to find out and make an informed decision, n'est-ce pas?

FWIW the thing that really put me off meat was watching an episode of How It Works concerning the production of meat in an abbatoir. I appreciate that all the techniques are supposed to be humane but it just all seemed so [i]unnecessary [/i]to me.

Fixed that for you. (-:

TBH, heavily processed foods is a whole other discussion (and where I was going when I said it was interesting earlier). We know from scaremongering headlines that "processed = bad" but we must also understand that "pithy soundbites ? science." Heavily processed foods are often laden with salt, sugar and fats; things our bodies crave to the point of addiction but aren't particularly loaded with nutritional value. To my mind this is a much greater danger than some centuries-old chemical process used on a trace ingredient.

Besides, I said at the outset that I'm lucky to live in a society where not eating meat is a viable lifestyle. But to have a diet which fully avoids anything that sounds like it might be processed or artificial in some way we've actually got the opposite problem; it's very difficult to do with any degree of certainty and requires a financial investment which is out of the reach of a lot of the populace. It is, if you like, an actual First World Problem.

(Sorry for the thread drift.)

It's better to find out and make an informed decision, n'est-ce pas?

But to have a diet which fully avoids anything that sounds like it might be processed or artificial in some way we've actually got the opposite problem; it's very difficult to do with any degree of certainty and requires [b]a financial investment which is out of the reach of a lot of the populace[/b].

I genuinely don't believe this is true.

people like eating the crap that is slowly killing them

*pretty sure in a lot of cases this is a brand/tag rather than a certification that the contents are 100% natural.

I genuinely don't believe this is true.

Point is, organic produce is more expensive to buy (and I assume, to produce) than its non-organic counterparts. This probably isn't a big deal to most of us on AspiringToBeMiddleClassTrackWorld, but if you're down to your last tenner before your giro turns up and you need to feed your family and your dog-on-a-string, then whether or not your Lidl Value Burgers had the opportunity for a good moo before they were ground into little bits and reassembled into convenient shapes is going to take second fiddle to whether or not you can get six for 29p.

Whether it's cheaper to live off ready-meals or cook your own from scratch (which I think is what you were alluding to?) is a whole other argument, of course.

Obviously this applies equally to veggie/non-veggie food.

well, quite. which is why it's a bit of a non-issue with regard to this particular thread (not that much of it has been on-topic, mind!)

*pretty sure in a lot of cases this is a brand/tag rather than a certification that the contents are 100% natural.

The Soil Association "organic" certification is just that, a certification. Nothing to stop the corporate marketing machines coming up with slogans that sound very similar though. "Farm fresh!" Meaningless.

Point is, organic produce is more expensive to buy (and I assume, to produce) than its non-organic counterparts

not necessarily.

Unicorn Grocery in Manchester has a chalk board on which they regularly display price comparisons between their own organic, mostly locally grown fresh produce and the non-organic supermarket equivalents. More often than not, Unicorn's prices are lower (the only one they can never compete on price-wise is bananas (and no, these are obviously NOT locally grown anyway!)).

You don't believe that buying all fresh, "organic"*, as tampered with as little as possible food is more expensive then mass produced, processed, canned/frozen/shrinkwrapped stuff?

EDIT: actually xherbivorex makes a very good point above. The organic produce from local farms in the farmers market near me is often cheaper than supermarket prices. Don't confuse the profits made from food by big companies with the cost of producing it. The problem is as much down to us allowing corporations to dictate what we eat, where it comes from & how much we have to pay for it as anything else. You can always grow it yourself; what could be cheaper than that?

My Wife's workmate has just converted to being Vegan, like most new converts to anything she's very evangelical about it, but isn't open to debate which I find frustrating.

She declares that "meat is murder" - perhaps, I had a lovely chicken curry last night that I made - one or more chickens died to create that dish. It's pretty unpleasant to me that Chickens bread for meat only live 6-7 weeks, that's it. All those thousands of 7 week old chickens being butchered - BUT, if they weren't, they wouldn't have lived in the first place - 7 weeks life, or no life - although she doesn't see it that way - as far as she's concerned the farmer would have raised those chickens and let them live a full and content life on the farm if only we didn't eat them.

And by extension the same could be said for all animal products - very few animals are hunted from the wild these days, aside of course from Fish, who oddly seem to be 'okay' for a certain percentage of Vegetarians.

She sees millions of animals being killed every year for food and it upsets her, which I can understand - there's nothing pleasant about killing something, but equally - the vast majority of these animals wouldn't have been born, or lived in the first place if we didn't eat them - most farmers (in the UK at least) treat their livestock very well, yes certain animals don't have much luck - male chicks may only live minutes, male calves born into diary herds days. But again you could argue that is caused by people trying to do the right thing - Veal crates are indeed vile, but their is such a thing as ethical veal - but publicity has made it a complete no-no for most consumers so the male calves get shot in the head when they're a few days old, but for the animals that it's financially worth raising for meat they live a live without attack by predators and won't face starvation, or thirst and will be cared for.

Unfortunately - my Wife's workmate isn't open to debate or reason, she preferred ill thought out Internet 'facts' that wouldn't pass a snopes test and if you try to offering an alternative view she fingers in ears and "la la la la I can't hear you".

depends where you live.
back home most of the fruit and veg would come from the local farmshop. conveniently for us that was just on the road out of the village. or in summer, often PYO.

live in a town, and the average city dweller probably wouldn't even know where the local farmshop or farmer's market is. and if they did, it is probably nowhere near as convenient as Waitrose.

friend's farm stuff all mostly ended up in local markets (or cider). the bigger farm with the farm shop, had loads going straight to Tesco and would be on the shelves with 48 hours. not an awful lot in it. no idea about price, other than the pickers getting paid 2x as much but big penalties for getting too many duff strawberries in a punnet, when you know you're picking for Tesco rather than local market.

She declares that "meat is murder" - perhaps,

I had a lovely chicken curry last night that I made - one or more chickens died to create that dish. It's pretty unpleasant to me that Chickens bread for meat only live 6-7 weeks, that's it. All those thousands of 7 week old chickens being butchered - BUT, if they weren't, they wouldn't have lived in the first place - 7 weeks life, or no life - although she doesn't see it that way - as far as she's concerned the farmer would have raised those chickens and let them live a full and content life on the farm if only we didn't eat them.

In humans terms you would be arguing that the infanticide of a 7 week old child is kinder than it never having been born then you have to say we killed it to eat it.
FFS you really want to argue this 😯

Its a terrible argument

Most farmers (in the UK at least) treat their livestock very well, yes certain animals don't have much luck - male chicks may only live minutes, male calves born into diary herds days. But again you could argue that is caused by people trying to do the right thing - Veal crates are indeed vile, but their is such a thing as ethical veal - but publicity has made it a complete no-no for most consumers so the male calves get shot in the head when they're a few days old, but for the animals that it's financially worth raising for meat

So basically they dont treat them well they just try ot make money out of them No offence but you have failed to make your own point there and just made a long list of things where they dont treat them well

I am not surprised she does not respond well to your version of reason 😯

[quote=P-Jay ]My Wife's workmate has just converted to being Vegan, like most new converts to anything she's very evangelical about it, but isn't open to debate which I find frustrating.
...
Unfortunately - my Wife's workmate isn't open to debate or reason, she preferred ill thought out Internet 'facts' that wouldn't pass a snopes test and if you try to offering an alternative view she fingers in ears and "la la la la I can't hear you".

In which case I suggest that when she evangelises, you do fingers in your ears and "la la la"!

What I don't understand is how people cannot grasp that fact that you can treat an animal well, you can love the animal; then you can kill it, butcher it and make money out of it.

As long as all this is done with love and care why is there a problem?

Its the kill part that some are uncomfortable with

HTH

As long as all this is done with love and care why is there a problem?

I'm guessing there's not much point in trying to explain the concept of [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism ]speciesism[/url] at this point 🙂

What I don't understand is how people cannot grasp that fact that you can treat an animal well, you can love the animal; then you can kill it, butcher it and make money out of it.

As long as all this is done with love and care why is there a problem?

What I don't understand is how people cannot grasp that fact that you can treat an animal well, you can love the animal; then you can kill it, butcher it and make money out of it.

As long as all this is done with love and care why is there a problem?

However, now I have gone down this path I would still remain vegan if all meat were obtained in the fashion you describe.

Junkyard - lazarus

She declares that "meat is murder" - perhaps,

I think we can all agree we kill it to eat

I had a lovely chicken curry last night that I made - one or more chickens died to create that dish. It's pretty unpleasant to me that Chickens bread for meat only live 6-7 weeks, that's it. All those thousands of 7 week old chickens being butchered - BUT, if they weren't, they wouldn't have lived in the first place - 7 weeks life, or no life - although she doesn't see it that way - as far as she's concerned the farmer would have raised those chickens and let them live a full and content life on the farm if only we didn't eat them.

In humans terms you would be arguing that the infanticide of a 7 week old child is kinder than it never having been born then you have to say we killed it to eat it.
FFS you really want to argue this

Its a terrible argument

Most farmers (in the UK at least) treat their livestock very well, yes certain animals don't have much luck - male chicks may only live minutes, male calves born into diary herds days. But again you could argue that is caused by people trying to do the right thing - Veal crates are indeed vile, but their is such a thing as ethical veal - but publicity has made it a complete no-no for most consumers so the male calves get shot in the head when they're a few days old, but for the animals that it's financially worth raising for meat

So basically they dont treat them well they just try ot make money out of them No offence but you have failed to make your own point there and just made a long list of things where they dont treat them well

I am not surprised she does not respond well to your version of reason

Killing an animal isn't murder, killing a human is sometimes murder, but not always.

So no, by any legal definition meat isn't murder. I say "perhaps" for the sake of being tolerant to other peoples opinion, but it's factually incorrect to call it murder.

It's also not infanticide, whilst a 7 week old human is a baby, a 7 week old Chicken is not a chick. We shouldn't humanise animals, they are not humans.

I personally think it's a perfectly valid argument - it's a chicken, not a human - we are the dominant species. Humans have always eaten other animals, even before Humans evolved our genetic forefathers were omnivores - given how many humans are alive today it would be unethical to source our meat from 'the wild' species would be hunted to extinction and hunting and killing animals is far less humane for the animal.

Cows, Chickens, Pigs and the less common domesticated livestock today exist, because Humans created them and whilst it's not a deal that they had any part in, animals don't have emotions like humans do - they exist to reproduce and ensure the continuation of the species - domesticated livestock species will continue as long as we keep consuming them so their goal is aligned with ours.

Ital is vital (Yes you know that I'm a farmer)

for the sake of being tolerant to other peoples opinion,

It's also not infanticide, whilst a 7 week old human is a baby, a 7 week old Chicken is not a chick. We shouldn't humanise animals, they are not humans.

As for the rest you have just got to be trolling - their goals align with ours 😆

Okay so following on from the comments on the previous page... I'm thinking that vegans who agree, in principle, with what I said (i.e. reasonable people) would do more good for condition, and in fact the public perception of farming for meat, if they were to only eat meat from animals that had been loved/cared for properly.

This would mean that instead of being marginalised, misunderstood and generally looked upon as having a bit of a screw loose they would be seen as normal people, but principled and who care deeply for animal welfare i.e. the sort of people that one might hold in high regard and look up to.

It strikes me that veganism is too extreme, too detached from the norm, to garner the respect of those who maybe need a little help to see the error of their ways. More good would be done if they campaigned for greater access to (or even just bought into) high welfare meat and the abolition of intensive farming. As it is I can't see what good being vegan is doing for all the animals that are still suffering.

LOL so reasonable people agree with you and vegans should campaign for a nicer way to kill animals 😕 that is like arguing that those opposed to the death penalty are better off arguing for a kinder method of it being carried out.

TBH I dont want anyones respect and I am not trying to persuade anyone to do anything eta what you like it has **** all to do with me.

Hopefully this statement will help me on the road to rehabilitation where someone like you, and I really do care what you think of me, wont see me as an extremist with a screw loose

TBH these threads always end up like this where it hard to tell whether folk are just trolling or they really are this dense.

Well thanks for that, apart from a few helpful posts the majority of posts have been a flaming argument.
I only asked what Veganism was not for you lot to start a bloody row!

And if anyone says "this is STW what do you expect?" I'll make sausages from them!!!

Jamz > And you're also assuming everyone is vegan for exactly the same reasons, which is fallacious.

There are some who want to change the world, and for some of them you may be right. Some view that eating meat / dairy is still taking advantage of animals for our benefit; as an analogy, would slavery be ok if the slaves were well kept, looked after, loved and happy? And some simply don't want to eat meat etc because they're uncomfortable with consuming animal products.

There's a logic to what you're saying, but I'm afraid it's just not that simple.

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

Thanks Nostoc, end of thread.

I only asked what Veganism was not for you lot to start a bloody row!

You'd have been better off asking Jeeves then, not STW.

I'm thinking that vegans who agree, in principle, with what I said (i.e. reasonable people) would do more good for condition, and in fact the public perception of farming for meat, if they were to only eat meat from animals that had been loved/cared for properly.

I'm going to get flamed here...

You're missing the point. Many vegans, not all, maybe not even a majority of them, fundamentally believe that the ethics of whether or not to inflict suffering, pain and death on an animal should not be determined by it's membership of a specific species, but instead on it's ability to suffer pain and stress. It may be a logical leap too far for many, but if you take the species aspect out of it, and accept that non-human animals can feel pain, suffering, and stress, then the justification for inflicting that does not exist from an ethical point of view. That's why many vegans will not accept that it's ok to kill an animal for human consumption no matter how well it is treated, as they believe that human and non-human rights are equivalent.

inflict suffering, pain and death on an animal

Well most people, vegan or otherwise, would not want to inflict the first two - steps should be taken to minimise that at all times. This is why I buy free range grass fed everything, incidentally.

A happy animal that lives a safe fulfilling existence right up until it's instantly stunned and killed - does it actually suffer?

A happy animal that lives a safe fulfilling existence right up until it's instantly stunned and killed - does it actually suffer?

Yes and if you follow the speciesist logic you'd ask why the same doesn't apply to humans. The philosophical and ethical side of this is quite interesting. The classic thought experiment often cited is that using this logic, if a superior alien species were to come and start farming humans for meat, would we as a species simply accept our part in the natural order, or would we think it unethical?

[i]A happy animal that lives a safe fulfilling existence right up until it's [b]instantly stunned and killed[/b][/i]

Is the ethical and moral problem for most of us (veggie/vegans). I differ to dazh the alien issues is the relevant argument.

A somewhat leading question about a happy and fulfilled life

then again imho a happy and fulfilled lives does not end your death in an abattoir and your carcass being eaten.

Daz its wasted explaining tbh and a vegan cannot eat meat even the ones that were happy right up to the point we killed it to eat it.
as fr the aliens I believe we should be thankful for what they do for us as those 7 weeks of life will be blissful and without them we would potentially be extinct and wishing them to stop is far crueler. I dont like the species arguments personally. Its just cruel to kill things that can feel pain and suffer no matter how stupid they are.

molly you cannot rear and slaughter in a nice way though you can do it in a less bad way. If buying happy cows is enough for you then that is your choice

I dont like the species arguments personally.

From a philosophical viewpoint I'd say they're logically consistent, but not a very effective way of getting the message across. The idea is just too off the wall for many to accept or understand. Try explaining to people that it's potentially more ethical to do medical experiments on newborn babies than adult chimpanzees and you're probably onto a loser 🙂

then again imho a happy and fulfilled lives does not end your death in an abattoir and your carcass being eaten.

How does being eaten after death affect your life?

Yes and if you follow the speciesist logic you'd ask why the same doesn't apply to humans

Well the thing about humans is that they get very upset when people they know get killed. How much does that apply to other species?

Its just cruel to kill things that can feel pain

But there IS such a thing as a painless death, even for a human. If someone came up behind me and shot me in the back of the head, I'd be none the wiser.

How does being eaten after death affect your life?

How much does that apply to other species?

here IS such a thing as a painless death,

There are many forms of human cruelty, the one that ends up with meat in my pan doesn't bother me that much, in fact hardly at all.
And yes, if allowed I would raise, slaughter, butcher and eat it myself.

Good.

Why aren't you allowed?

@ Junkyard, with regard to your earlier reply so my second post, please have a look at the replies of Cougar and dazh - this is how adults conduct a fruitful discussion - no need to swearing, self indulgent babble or calling other people 'dense'.

I suppose I was assuming that all vegan's would have the animals best interests at heart. I stand by the point that only eating higher welfare meat and setting an example for other people to follow is a better way of improving the quality of life of farm animals.

But, as Cougar and dazh have pointed out, the issue goes deeper than that. So we're basically saying that vegans are not comfortable with humans taking advantage of animals in any way. This notion of enslaving the animals is one that I had not considered.

Interesting... so would a vegan ever keep a pet dog?

Surely stress, pain and death are all a natural part of life? They're gonna catch up with us all at some point. And with regard the alien example - the animals are not conscious of the fact they're being farmed, so to them all is well. I'm failing to see how you draw parallels there. Obviously if I was living with the knowledge of my impending death, that would not make for a very good quality of life, but the animal is not conscious.

Although you don't need to be licensed to slaughter your own animals for personal consumption, you do need to comply with local food hygiene regulations. The cost of compliance makes it unfeasible for very small scale husbandry, so I stick to a bit of wild rabbit and game these days.

@ Junkyard, with regard to your earlier reply so my second post, please have a look at the replies of Cougar and dazh - this is how adults conduct a fruitful discussion - no need to swearing, self indulgent babble or calling other people 'dense'.

so would a vegan ever keep a pet dog?

Although you don't need to be licensed to slaughter your own animals for personal consumption, you do need to comply with local food hygiene regulations.

Interesting... so would a vegan ever keep a pet dog?

You won't be surprised to know that many vegans have 'companion' animals. This isn't surprising as many are also animal lovers. Personally I'm not that fussed by animals, but in our (mostly vegan) house we have 4 rescue cats, which are neutered/spayed and have bells on them in an attempt at stopping them killing other animals (not always successful sadly). Other vegans I know have rescue animals, but like me are completely opposed to pet breeders, pet shops and other elements of the pet industry. In an ideal world we wouldn't have pets but there are lots of domesticated animals who need homes. The important bit is to stop them breeding in an attempt to stop more of them being dumped or mistreated by irresponsible owners/keepers. Having said that I'm not opposed to companion domesticated animals on principle. The reality is that even if everyone turned vegan tomorrow, domestic animals are here to stay. The key thing is that they are allowed to live out their natural lives without exploitation or cruelty.

the animals are not conscious of the fact they're being farmed, so to them all is well.

Is that not an assumption you've made? There's a fair amount of evidence that animals are psychologically stressed by farming practices. Not least by their offspring being removed from them prematurely. They may not understand that they are being exploited, but again if you follow the speciesism logic, would an infant human child? (I'm not particularly advocating the speciesism stuff BTW, just raising it as another thing to consider)