[Closed] Please explain Veganism to me . . .

Well it seems you lot agree with my gut feeling on this, but do we have a definitive answer on which is better?

Nope and you won't get one. If you read up on veggie diets though there is usually some talk of combining foods to make the most of them. Iron is a tricky one as it's difficult to get out of the best plant forms, but adding vit C (glass of orange juice, oh noes the sugar!!!!) helps absorb it better.
Fairly sure someone in ST once wrote that baked beans on wholemeal bread contain the most complete range of proteins. No idea if thats true, but I do like beans 🙂

http://www.viva.org.uk/ironing-out-facts-fact-sheet

Short version two types of iron and the non meat one MAY be better for you and non meat eaters get more of that
I think its possible a claim born from philosophy rather than science and VIVA are ,like Greenpeace is to the environmental movement, for Vegans/veggies IMHO

ANemia [ iron deficiency] is no more common in non meat eaters than meat eaters - US and BMA studies

questions are asked, and it's very difficult to give answers without it sounding like I want everyone to be vegan

Especially when the question is 'Are you vegan/veggie for health or moral reasons', which if you then answer 'moral', you are then accused of being preachy by taking the moral high ground. Which is then closely followed by a number questions designed to show you up as a hypocrite.

My standard response to this question is usually something along the lines of..

"Because I couldn't personally cut the throat of a pig/cow/lamb, so I don't expect others to do it for me. The moral superiority and improved health are just beneficial side effects."

Its a pointless debate some folk want to eat meat some dont
Some of those [either side]are healthy some are not
Some of those get annoyed by the diet of the other lot and some dont
I really dont see why other folk care what other folk eat

I dunno, people who are vegetarian because they 'don't believe animals should be killed/mistreated for our food' who eat mass-produced eggs and milk do grind my gears a little. You can say it's personal choice etc but those people do surely on some level believe themselves to be morally superior to those who eat meat. I would like to say I only eat meat from free-range relatively ethical sources (I try with varying degrees of success). I reckon if I stuck to that and didn't eat any mass produced milk or eggs it would arguably be causing less suffering to animals than a veggie who eats mass produced eggs and milk.

So to me vegetarianism seems a bit of a halfway house that makes people feel like they are doing good but the amount of good is often questionable, IMO. Vegans on the other hand I genuinely admire and more of us should eat like that more of the time definitely.

The moral superiority and improved health are just beneficial side effects.

So to me vegetarianism seems a bit of a halfway house that makes people feel like they are doing good but the amount of good is often questionable,

Of course it's a halfway house. But the logic that you shouldn't be vegetarian because you're not capapble/willing to be vegan is a bit silly. Every vegan and vegetarian I know accepts that it's impossible to be morally pure on this subject. The choice to be either is a conscious choice to do something positive, whilst accepting the limitations. Would it be more acceptable to say 'I eat meat because there's no point in giving up as I can never achieve moral purity and I don't want to be a hypocrite'?

Well it seems you lot agree with my gut feeling on this, but do we have a definitive answer on which is better?

trying to put aside my obvious bias (with the same disclaimer as junkyard that i genuinely do not care what anyone else chooses to eat or not eat), a well balanced omnivorous diet should have a way higher proportion of veg to meat than that of most omnivores anyway, so it wouldn't really be an issue i'd have thought?

personally speaking, i've not eaten meat or dairy for around 27 years now and never had issues with iron deficiency. i do eat a lot of spinach, broccoli, kale etc though... so it seems to work for me.

That's a bit like some people don't believe in evolution - how do you think the South Downs get mown? Without the 'mowing' how do you think the Chalkhill Blue butterfly would do?

A large amount of government spending goes into subsidising farming based on the same thought process. i.e. that farmers are the custodians of our landscape and that if we don't subsidise every hedge/drystone wall/fallow field/etc then the money-making alternative will be worse. It may be the case, but we seem to be very protective of very recent history without much thought to what alternatives could be better/more natural.

(glass of orange juice, oh noes the sugar!!!!) helps absorb it better

is there a better local source than the ones flown in from Spain? so transport pollution and irrigation issues to consider there.

[url= https://gsoil.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/the-impact-of-citrus-production-an-approach-from-the-soil-system/ ]https://gsoil.wordpress.com/2012/12/25/the-impact-of-citrus-production-an-approach-from-the-soil-system/[/url]

Most of the vegans i know have poor health/low energy and it's usually a drama. Meat makes you strong! Call troll if you like, just being honest.

Odd. Most of the meat eaters I know are overweight, and the majority of those over 50 have heart problems. They also cause a drama every time I quietly order the vegetarian option on the menu, yet I say nothing about their menu choice.

Poor diet makes you weak/poor health. By your logic, eating this everyday

[img] [/img]

is going to make you healthier a stronger than eating this?

[img] [/img]

So meat equals shit fast food? Have a word....you're [i]exactly[/i] as bad as the anti veggies....

I'll rephrase - by artificial do you mean man-made?
So an eco-system that has been around for around 4000 years, probably much more, is 'artificial'?
Current understanding suggests there are few eco-systems (including the Amazon basin and the American mid-west) that are un-influenced (at minimum) or essentially created (at maximum) by man.
Ergo the whole world is an artifical system.

I agree, but you seemed to be posting it as a justification for continued animal farming, whereas I don't see that.

Personally it's just the whole moral highground, evangelising of veggies that I find irritating as I agree with Ninfan.

Does that actually happen a lot to you, or have you just made it up?

I think I've met, ooh, two preachy veggies in my life. One was a fruitloop who cut something else out of her diet whenever she was ill, which was most of the time because she kept eating less and less. The other was some random woman in a pub who was loudly playing the "meat is murder" card to anyone who would listen. I had a most entertaining debate with her, deconstructing her half-baked ideas, it was like being on the Internet. She'd assumed I was a meat eater and took that as point of attack. The look on her face was priceless when I revealed 20 minutes in that I'd been vegetarian for considerably longer than she had.

Mostly though, the 'preachy' ones IME are the omnivores who have never really given their diet any thought whatsoever and stuff whatever crap down that they've always eaten, yet feel obliged to mansplain about incisors or depth perception, or how they knew a vegan who had a cold once, or some other ill-informed rot. Pretty much every vegetarian / vegan I know just wants to get through life without having to have the same gods damned discussion every. single. time. we eat out. You eat what you want, I'll eat what I want, simples.

And the reason we're discussing it now? Because an omnivore asked us to explain it. We're not explaining it to be preachy, we're not explaining it to give you something to attack (and believe me, we've heard it all before and it gets weary), we're not explaining it to justify our diets or to evangelise (though most people could do to think more about what they eat, veggie or not), we're explaining because [i]someone bloody well asked us to.[/i]

So to me vegetarianism seems a bit of a halfway house that makes people feel like they are doing good but the amount of good is often questionable, IMO. Vegans on the other hand I genuinely admire and more of us should eat like that more of the time definitely.

You haven't read the whole thread, have you. You're assuming, incorrectly, that there is only reason not to eat meat.

is going to make you healthier a stronger than eating this?

If I ate that every day I'm pretty confident I'd explode!

So meat equals shit fast food? Have a word....you're exactly as bad as the anti veggies....

I believe he was just demonstrating a point, which is broadly what Junkyard was saying. You can have a good or a bad diet as a vegan; a good or a bad diet as a vegetarian; or a good or a bad diet as a meat eater. The two are not intrinsically linked.

Or, being a meat eater does not necessarily negate your right to make sensible comments about someone else's dietary choices; however if your diet does mostly consist of [i]crap[/i] meat then you're in no position to be judgemental about someone else.

So an eco-system that has been around for around 4000 years, probably much more, is 'artificial'?

4000 years is nothing. Even in that period though the landscape was radically different to what it is now, largely due to industry, farming, and our obsession with keeping things tidy.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/27/my-manifesto-rewilding-world ]It could be very different though.[/url]. I'd much prefer forested hills containing the likes of wolves, bears and beavers than bald fields and peat bogs full of sheep and game birds.

[quote=xherbivorex ]a well balanced omnivorous diet should have a way higher proportion of veg to meat than that of most omnivores anyway, so it wouldn't really be an issue i'd have thought?

It's not an issue, I was just curious about the accuracy of your claim, given that I was immediately struck by one possible issue which I wasn't sure had been factored in to the comparison 😉

I don't doubt that with a properly healthy diet it is possible to get all the nutrients you need, whether that diet is vegan, vegetarian, omnivore or carnivorous (actually I can see how you might struggle on some things with the latter). I'm also sure that despite eating rather less meat than the average person I still eat a lot more than I need to (I sometimes used to have a meat free month - mostly vegetarian, but fish a couple of times a week - haven't managed that since having kids who I'm afraid have been brought up to enjoy eating meat - and I've not yet made them kill their own dinner either). Though the main issue with my diet is my propensity to snack on biscuits and the like - they're certainly not vegan, but I don't think that's what makes them bad for me.

I think all those of us on this thread capable of using our brains also agree that the health issue isn't the headline category of the diet, as it is possible to have a good or bad diet whichever of those categories you choose.

So meat equals shit fast food? Have a word....you're exactly as bad as the anti veggies....

Not at all, I was highlighting the poor diet choice as the key component to the argument that I was responding to. Be it a meat based, or meat free diet. You found teh obvious flaw in the argument though - well spotted 😉

I don't give a shit about other peoples diet choices and don't preach about them, neither do the majority of vegetarians that I know (which is quite a lot).

Edit: Cougar got it 8)

If I ate that every day I'm pretty confident I'd explode!

I'm pretty confident one end of me would.

The choice to be either is a conscious choice to do something positive, whilst accepting the limitations. Would it be more acceptable to say 'I eat meat because there's no point in giving up as I can never achieve moral purity and I don't want to be a hypocrite'?

That's not really what I'm saying though. I'm saying it's possible to take steps to be more ethical in your consumption of food - 'do something positive' - that don't necessarily involve being vegetarian. And that you could make an argument that some meat eaters are more ethical than some vegetarians in their consumption. I don't think people can assume vegetarian = more ethical without thinking through any of the other aspects.

I know quite a few vegetarians who eat more eggs than most meat-eaters. Whilst these are usually free-range they are also usually mass-produced supermarket eggs. I don't think they have thought through how many animals are being killed to produce those eggs.

I'm not saying 'either be perfect or do nothing' I'm saying don't make potentially tokenistic gestures to make yourself feel better, have a really good think and do some research about the impact your consumption has. I know many people have done this, but quite a lot haven't IMO. It seems to me often like an emotional reaction of 'I don't want to harm the cute animals' rather than a logical/ethical position, which is how it's presented.

@Cougar - yes I have thanks - I'm obviously talking about those who don't eat meat for 'moral' reasons.

Actually further to my above post, I'm wondering when I last managed a day without eating some form of meat or fish (though I struggle to feel any level of guilt about the latter). Should try a bit harder, but it's tricky when you've reared kids who demand their meat.

That's not really what I'm saying though. I'm saying it's possible to take steps to be more ethical in your consumption of food - 'do something positive' - that don't necessarily involve being vegetarian. And that you could make an argument that some meat eaters are more ethical than some vegetarians in their consumption. I don't think people can assume vegetarian = more ethical without thinking through any of the other aspects.

Would it be more acceptable to say 'I eat meat because there's no point in giving up as I can never achieve moral purity and I don't want to be a hypocrite'?

Kind of like worrying about the environment and buying a [i]slightly[/i] smaller engined car.
But theres other reasons to be veggie

Does that actually happen a lot to you, or have you just made it up?

But yeah it's all a compromise and the comparison of "ethical" omni diet vs bog standard veggie diet is probably arguable anyway

is going to make you healthier a stronger than eating this?

I'm wondering when I last managed a day without eating some form of meat or fish

This is in no means an attack, but I do find it really odd that some folk have to have meat with absolutely everything. It's like an addiction. Don't you get bored of essentially the same food every day?

If you want to eat less meat but struggle, how about introducing something like Quorn as another form of 'meat' (as opposed to thinking of it as something you're going without)? Because essentially that's what it is, it's a convenient way of packaging protein. Quorn can be hit and miss, but their peppered steaks are nice, and I'm quite partial to the frozen 'chicken' burgers. Or if you can find them (I think H&B still carry them), Tivall hotdogs are indistinguishable from the Plumrose ones I used to have before I was veggie. Plenty of options where you can eat broadly what you normally eat, not eating meat doesn't have to equate to eating your own bodyweight in lettuce leaves.

And that you could make an argument that some meat eaters are more ethical than some vegetarians in their consumption. I don't think people can assume vegetarian = more ethical without thinking through any of the other aspects.

This is true, however as general rules of thumb, vegetarian and vegan lifestyles have very simple rules which do not require much research on the part of the follower which is why they are popular with people seeking a more ethical lifestyle. You could say the same about the organic/local/fairtrade movements too. It would be preferable for everyone to do their own research and come to their own conclusions, but it's not suprising that many don't.

what about falafel instead of burgers?
Some curries are veggie anyway - Dahls and the like
I assume veggie mince in Bolognese sauce or similar

Not fan of meat substitute as it is both expensive and heavily processed

Don't you get bored of essentially the same food every day?

I can't believe people eat veggies every day! Doesn't the same food get boring?? 😉

You could say the same about the organic/local/fairtrade movements too.

Indeed. I was listening to a podcast recently and they were talking about research showing that in some instance it's 'greener' to buy food that's been flown/shipped in from far away places than buying locally produced stuff - if they have climatic conditions/soil etc that are much better suited to growing the stuff than we do then it actually uses more energy for us to grow it than to import it.

There's quite a few criticisms of Fair Trade also - not sure what to think on that one. It seems on balance to probably be a good thing but it's by no means certain in all cases.

The nuances of the issues involved seem to cause some people to just throw their hands up and say 'well it's all too complicated so I'll just not bother' - I'm not advocating that.

If you want to eat less meat but struggle, how about introducing something like Quorn as another form of 'meat'?

I should do more veg stuff but it's a laziness/tastiness thing. I've done some pretty decent veg curries in the past (as a veggie work colleague taught me a fair bit about making curries) but almost all of them you thought "yeah this is really good.... but adding some chicken/lamb/prawn would top it off a treat".

I assume veggie mince in Bolognese sauce or similar

One thing I've found is that Quorn mince takes considerably less cooking than its meaty brethren. You can't simmer it for hours like you can (AFAIK) with meat, it disintegrates. If I'm doing a chilli (say), I'll fry it off first to give it a bit more bite, then chuck it into the chilli maybe 10-15 minutes before the end of cooking. I'd guess a large percentage of people who've tried Quorn mince and said they've not liked it have probably overcooked it into slurry, done properly you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.

[quote=Cougar ]This is in no means an attack, but I do find it really odd that some folk have to have meat with absolutely everything. It's like an addiction. Don't you get bored of essentially the same food every day?

There's quite a lot of variety in meat! Given I do eat meat, I don't really see the point in meat substitutes - as I mentioned I did used to do meat free months (ISTR doing it for lent, but let's not go there!) which is more than most people manage, and I did that without eating Quorn burgers or whatever. I get all the issues about eggs, but not going to stop eating them, and thinking further we do sometimes have scrambled eggs and beans on toast for tea. I was going to suggest quiche, but we usually have the one with bacon in! Maybe should see if I can sneak a veggie curry past the kids.

Less meat might be more realistic - if we'd had this discussion a couple of days ago I might have bought just the one pack of lamb for our curry and topped up with veg rather than thought it was a bit less meat than we usually use and bought a second with plans to freeze some.

I can't believe people eat veggies every day! Doesn't the same food get boring??

Touché (-: I guess we're back to the good / crap diet argument. It's probably just as easy to be imaginative or boring irrespective of being veggie / carnie.

the mycoprotein used to make quorn comes from fungus grown on a petrochemical feedstock. nice.

An omnivore can eat all that

This. Why the assumption that if you eat meat, eggs, and dairy that you don't eat fruit and veg?

It could be very different though.. I'd much prefer forested hills containing the likes of wolves, bears and beavers than bald fields and peat bogs full of sheep and game birds.

What makes you think that (even more) scots pine and birch or reintroduction of wolves would be of greater ecological value than protecting a (largely artificial) environment that gives us black grouse,lapwings, hen harriers, sundew, bog asphodel, dor beetles or round mouthed whorl snails?

I don't mind Quorn but I'm not sure about the ethics of it. They use free-range eggs (in the UK at least) but then unless someone knows otherwise I'm pretty sure large-scale free-range egg producers are still going to be killing all the male chicks, and hens that are past peak productivity.

I get all the issues about eggs, but not going to stop eating them

You could probably find someone with a few hens and get proper free-range non-intensively produced ones - they're much nicer also.

A wee dod of Marmite gives Quorn mince a meatier flavour. Cooked properly (ie not over-cooked) most folk struggle to tell the difference

Can a vegan drive a car running on petrol? Dino juice..

Cooked properly (ie not over-cooked) most folk struggle to tell the difference

Difference to what?

Fillet steak, turkey mince, liver, bacon, alligator?

Given I do eat meat, I don't really see the point in meat substitutes

That's my point really. Don't look at it as an anything substitute, rather as just another option. You wouldn't say "given I do eat beef, I don't really see the point in beef substitutes like chicken," would you. Rather than categorising it as meat / not meat, it could be yet another protein source. Put a positive spin on it rather than a negative, if your mindset is that you're missing out on something then you will find it much harder to deny yourself.

Anecdotally: I went out with mates a couple of years back, stopped off at a greasy caff for lunch. One friend ordered a veggie sausage sandwich. "Oh," says another, "I didn't know you were vegetarian?" "I'm not," replied Dave, for that was his name, "I just like them." Sometimes he ordered the vegetarian sausages, sometimes the pork ones, or whatever else he fancied that day.

That always struck me as a wholly sensible approach to food, rather than mate #2 who seemingly hadn't realised that vegetarian offerings could be eaten by someone who wasn't vegetarian. It's almost the exact reverse of one of the common Vegetarian Bingo lines; "if you call yourself an omnivore, why won't you eat things that don't have meat in?" (-:

as general rules of thumb, vegetarian and vegan lifestyles have very simple rules which do not require much research on the part of the follower which is why they are popular with people seeking a more ethical lifestyle

or alternatively, the majority of belief based diet systems encourage their followers to just follow the [i]simple rules[/i] with the minimum of investigation/research into the deeper implications of their decisions

I was going to become a vegan a while ago and asked a mate round to give me some advice on it (he's been vegan for 20+ years). He turned up in a Bentley... knob.... decided it wasn't for me there and told him to do one.... 😀

Difference to what?