There's always someone that will say "walk to the shops", "ride from your house". There's always the "Green" among us.
Petrol has increased way above inflation with no viable alternative. Buses are extortionate. If I though the ludicrous amount of tax we pay on petrol was going into finding an alternative cheaper way of travel I might not be so narked about it all.
When it starts to cost double what it cost 3 years ago to fill up people will start to kick off a bit more.
There's more to the price of petrol than the price of crude oil. Demand, supply, storage, commodity trading, refining capacity etc etc etc.
Anyway. Tax all goes into one big pot, which is not full enough. [b]So if you didn't pay tax on fuel you'd have to pay it on something else.[/b]
with no viable alternative.
Very easy to say, and untrue. No current viable alternative sometimes works though........
Waderider - Surely if there's no alternative available using current technology, that counts as no viable alternative?
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how I can do my job without doing silly miles in a car and paying more and more for the privilege.
Molgrips if you look at my op I wasn't actually moaning about the tax, its there its never gonna change coz as I said its gotta be one of the easiest revenues the government can get! It just irritates me when the Sun print a little form for us to fill in and send off to number 11! Waste of a stamp!!! Perhaps if more stooodents drove' we could get a decent protest going!!!
I'd protest against a protest 🙂
Very easy to say, and untrue. No current viable alternative sometimes works though........
Then it's not viable!!
You're all wrong.
Why couldn't the tax on petrol be a little more fair. My car is economical with low co2 why should I pay the same fuel tax as someone who has a v8 range rover with does less than 8mpg?
It's supposed to be a "green" tax isn't it?
@molgrips and the 30mpg car choice. My motor's 13 year old and still going strong so why change it. When I bought it low 30's mpg was the norm for turbo petrol estates which is what I've got. It'll do mid 30's on a long run but not when fully loaded with people and bikes. Oh how I wish I could afford to change my car but it's not financially viable so the hike in fuel does affect me and it only get's used for necessitie's and as said it's nice to ride Dales, Lakes, and North York Moors. As GeordiePaul also pointed out is does affect group rides away from where the club's based as people just can't afford the cost as regularly.
On the plus side, as the cost of transport increases, the cost of goods imported long distances increases and the locally produced stuff becomes more competitive: Jobs and businesses are created and the local economy improves!
Everyones a winner, except those who winge about long commutes, imported goods, the "freedom" and "right" to drive, having to move closer to work etc... But, that'll only be a relatively short transition period.
It's supposed to be a "green" tax isn't it?
Isn't that VED? Fuel tax is just a 'normal' tax, like income tax or VAT. The original reasons why they were all introduced have been lost in the mists of time.
geordiepaul - Member
Why couldn't the tax on petrol be a little more fair. My car is economical with low co2 why should I pay the same fuel tax as someone who has a v8 range rover with does less than 8mpg?
Eh! But if he's doing 8mpg and your doing say 48mpg then he's paying 6 times more tax than you.
Sounds pretty fair to me...
geordiepaul - Member
Why couldn't the tax on petrol be a little more fair. My car is economical with low co2 why should I pay the same fuel tax as someone who has a v8 range rover with does less than 8mpg?
It is - you both pay £2.65 of duty per gallon of fuel, but to him it's 33p a mile and to you it's 7.5p per mile (assuming you do approx 35mpg).
Why couldn't the tax on petrol be a little more fair. My car is economical with low co2 why should I pay the same fuel tax as someone who has a v8 range rover with does less than 8mpg?
You car produces the same amount of C02 for every litre of fuel you burn as every other car.
So you do pay less tax as you use less fuel !!!!
Why couldn't the tax on petrol be a little more fair. My car is economical with low co2 why should I pay the same fuel tax as someone who has a v8 range rover with does less than 8mpg?
You car produces the same amount of C02 for every litre of fuel you burn as every other car.
So you do pay less tax as you use less fuel !!!!
£2.65 of duty per gallon, I though t tax was 62% so at current prices of £1.29 per gallon that's 1.29 * 4.546 * 0.62 = £3.63
This is worth a watch although I am sure many will disagree with the conclusions.
Obviously fuel tax is just that, a tax and one that people are more willling to pay than they are prepared to change their habits.
geordiepaul - Member
There's always someone that will say "walk to the shops", "ride from your house". There's always the "Green" among us.
[i]green?[/i] no, it's just not seeing the need to drive everywhere, I don't drive to work, 'cos I'm not a moron, it's quicker, cheaper, means I can take numerous ways home, and I can pop into the pub for a pint on the way without worrying about driving.
Petrol has increased way above inflation with no viable alternative. Buses are extortionate. If I though the ludicrous amount of tax we pay on petrol was going into finding an alternative cheaper way of travel I might not be so narked about it all.
Petrol has increased in price a lot because there's these people called "oil speculators" and they're making alot of money by manipulating oil prices. No viable alternative? - to what? Buses? - don't you remember what Thatcher said? Tax from petrol isn't hypothecated - just like VED isn;t either.
When it starts to cost double what it cost 3 years ago to fill up people will start to kick off a bit more.
Well, the number of people on here moaning about the £100 fill up!! No one seems to want to change their ways, so, when the cost goes up everything costs more. That's the problem with living in an industrialised society.
I'm quite surprised really, given the strong lefty leanings on here and the constant, repeated, ad nauseam criticism of evil Tory tax rises as [i]regressive[/i] rather than [i]progressive[/i] that we are not considering the marginal effect on the poor of high fuel taxation!
Lw income working families are unlikely to be able to afford a new car with higher efficiency, let alone something like a Prius, plus the proportion of total income spent on travel to work is clearly going to be higher for the lower paid - so, come on lefties - why doesn't the price you pay for petrol depend on what you earn?
But I don't understand about this insistence that you NEED TO DRIVE to get to work? 90% of people con't need to drive their <5 mile journey to work.
why doesn't the price you pay for petrol depend on what you earn?
It does, rich people chose to buy larger less fuel efficient cars still. You must be thinking of a different United Kingdom to the one I live in. Shopping trolley cars are relatively fuel efficient and (unfortunately?) car supermarkets and their cruddy finance deals put a 5 year old diesel supermini in the reach of a very large percentage of society.
You're just constructing the argument to your needs by mentioning hybrids. Not much of a factor, yet.
Waderider - even if the rich man and the poor man were driving cars with equal fuel efficiency/consumption - the taxation is still a much higher rate (comparative with total income) for the low earner - therefore fuel taxation is heavily regressive.
Come on Lefties - why aren't you shouting about that one, Evil Tory tax rises hitting the poor to pay for rich mens motorways!
I still don't understand why you all think that everyone drives everywhere? In my experience poor people tend to drive large, low mpg, old luxury cars, and the richest person I know drives an old Toyota Corolla with the corners missing.
aP - Member
But I don't understand about this insistence that you NEED TO DRIVE to get to work? 90% of people con't need to drive their <5 mile journey to work.
I'll agree that a lot of people don't NEED to drive to work. Quite a few people I work with live less than 3 miles away, but drive in. A few of them live about 1 mile away and still drive here. Some of them even seem quite proud of the fact.
I sometimes drive to a village near work (12 miles away) and cycle the rest of the way. I would cycle further but time dictates that would start getting a bit too much.
People at work seem incredulous that I even contemplate this.
working in chelsea all i see around me are huge 4x4s, and luxury sports cars, the lambo garage by south ken station seems to do a cracking trade!
the pay more VED, servicing and fuel costs (and until borris axed the c-charge here that too)
living in brentford i see much smaller and older but undoubtedly more efficient cars that pay less ved and have much smaller fuel bills
and overall this being a cycling forum anything that encourages people to cycle will be seen as a good thing
So kimbers when are you going to come out for a pootle then? I shall be cycling through Brentford at about 6.45 tonight...
Come on Lefties - why aren't you shouting about that one, Evil Tory tax rises hitting the poor to pay for rich mens motorways!
People [i]are[/i] protesting about the VAT rise precicely because it disproportionately impacts on the poor. VAT is payable on fuel.
ap was it u that asked me for a drink b4?
sorry new baby has disrupted my social life
where do u live?
Ap, it's probably due to it being totally unworkable for a big percentage of that "90%" figure you plucked out of the air. How many people drop kids off at school on their way to work etc, are you then supposed to run, bus or even bike those miles in under 20 mins to be in for 9 am. And what about shift workers, ideal on a winters morning hopping on your bike at just after 5 am to be in for 6. Oh and there's not a bus round out way that runs before 6 am and it's a big town!! Public transport sucks balls in this country and if it was more reliable and more wallet friendly I'd definitely use it for the jaunt into our local city. However it costs twice as much as the car if all four of us go!!
kimbers - I'm about a mile and a half west of you.
I think we need another west London pootle... (may involve mud)
What is the current rise in fuel caused by??In the past we were told it was the cost of crude. Mid 2008, crude oil was up over $145/barrel. I think around that time, diesel hit levels almost as high as we are currently experiencing
Crude is currently just over $90/barrel so why does fuel cost so much?If it was demand pushing the price up, I'd expect the cost of a barrel to be higher.
current oil price is c$100 due to oil leak, big difference between then and now, The pound has crashed against the dollar. So even though the price of oil is still way off its highs in dollar terms it isn't in pound terms. The value of the dollar has also meant the oil price for other countries is lower, look at the value of the Australian Dollar, oil is much cheaper because the ASD is riding high.
Then there is supply and demand, commodity trading etc. Lots of little things. The only thing, don't expect fuel to get cheap in the medium term, politicians might do something to get elected but peak oil, BRIC demand these are things beyond there control.
Just a thought, if everyone bought electric cars, where do you think the money currently generated by fuel duty would come from?
Plus duty has increased and VAT has increased etc.
If you can afford to buy, use and maintain are car, do you really fall into the definition of poor?
Personally, somewhere to live, food, heating, electricity etc... get a higher priority than the luxury of running a car for me. But I concede I may be in the minority.
Either way though, running a car doesn't appear to be cheap.
Poor people have to get to work too peyote.
£70 to fill up a car and move 1.5 tons 100s of miles at 80mph with no physical effort?? Absolute bargain 😉
Now that diesel is nudging 1.30 a litre I have decided I need to cycle or train itin to work despite it being 23miles away.
We are lucky in that we live within walking distance of enough shops to get anything we need plus 10 mins on a bus from a major city center. This means with a bit of effort we only "need" the car to go on visits to inlaws in Wales etc.
So even though the price of oil is still way off its highs in dollar terms it isn't in pound terms.
June 2008 US$/UKP FX ~1.98
June 2008 oil @ ~£74/barrel
Jan 2011 oil @ ~£58/barrel
if my [crap] maths are correct it's still over 20% cheaper in £ than it was in mid 2008
Fuel remains far too cheap. Private motoring is subsidised by the general taxpayer. Total costs of motoring are far greater than the money spent on roads
All those who complain# about their ridiculous commutes - that is a matter of choices that you have made.
Fuel will become more and more expensive as it runs out. Get used to it
Public transport is actually usually much cheaper than the real cost of using a car. To vist my parets by bus and train costs under 20 is I use the bike for some sections cost £10
Its 90 miles which would be at least £25 in a car.
Its 90 miles which would be at least £25 in a car.
Can you break that down for me please.
Poor people have to get to work too peyote.
I agree. I've yet to find an example where they didn't have a choice of mode and/or origin though. Not going to pretend it's an easy choice, but whenever people say they "need" a car. They often (not always, before the usual replies ensue!) only need it because they perceive it to be the better choice to maintain their current standard of living.
For the last half century or so it has become a percieved right to:-
1.Have the job you want where you want it
2.Live where you want
The use of the car has made it possible to choose to live and work in significantly different locations. The relatively cheap cost of motoring has made this economically viable for a large proportion of the population with only the very poorest being [b]forced [/b]to take jobs that they can reach by foot/public transport. This a situation our great grandfather's would never have dreamt of. Curiously we have all got quite time poor in the process.
I sense we are about to begin a sea change in population work habits. Families will have to start to make tough choices. If your partner has a good job close to your home you may have to choose to take a job you would not choose otherwise (different skills, too low pay, backwards career step) so that you can work locally. Alternatively you may have to uproot the family to move closer to your job if you can't get one at a more appropriate distance.
To say you have no choice but to commute great distances is bollox but it may mean making compromises that YOU don't want to make or you consider beneath you. You don't HAVE to live in a rural location and do a suburban or city based job; there are always low paid jobs closer to home (working in the local corner shop?). Home working can be an option. You don't have to have the size of house you currently have and need the high income you get from the far flung job to afford.
If in 50 years society has regigged itself so more people are living and working in the same location with an improved sense of comunity spirit that comes with that I don't think it will have all been a bad thing.
I have a car, I'll freely admit that I don't need to own one though. Last year I managed to go from 15 May to 25 August on one tank of diesel.
I work with (and have people that work for me) who drive shorter distances than I cycle in to work, and complain about how much it costs and look completely outraged when I suggest that they might want to try cycling instead.
I have 17-year-old students who drive less than 2 miles to college. While they continue to do that, I'll continue to think petrol's too cheap.
June 2008 US$/UKP FX ~1.98June 2008 oil @ ~£74/barrel
Jan 2011 oil @ ~£58/barrelif my [crap] maths are correct it's still over 20% cheaper in £ than it was in mid 2008
and duty and VAT makes most of the difference, hence the price is the almost the same. Now console yourself to the fact that oil will probably get back to c£74/barrel in the not to distant future. So that'll be 25p on top of the price you pay now.
