You think we do big commutes?
Look over the pond, ammericans spend the same on fuel for cars as us, but:
do less mpg (typicaly half what we get)
commute further (typicaly twice as far)
pay less (about 1/4 our prices)
Which gives the interesting impression that we've reached some kind of level where we refuse to pay any more for petrol and adjust our long term habits to compensate.
So you could double the price of fuel, and given time peoples expendature would level out at current levels again, but with a greater proportion of the cost as tax, and less miles driven (or higher mpg).
I can't remember the program but there was something on BBC4 last night and it was talking about motorways, one comment was most of the population of warrington commutes, that there are villages in the UK where no one works they all commute. where food miles have ramped up, where people drive to shops many miles away.
This is the situation we have allowed to happen over the last few decades, cheap fuel and motorways have meant commuting is a viable option for a lot of people. Sit down look at what you earn and what you pay for your commute, how much of a paycut could you take and be better off.
TJ in an ideal world public transport would be an option. In the real world, it is full of people who use public transport! Something that needs to change, normal people need to feel that getting mugged etc won't happen. time tables are often crap, the perceived price is high. I put £20 Diesel in the car to go for a drive when i want to where i won't to go, i have to pay £5 for a bus ticket which doesn't go from where i live to where i want to go. If the costs of cars were transferred to the point of use rather than fixed overheads i do think it would be progress. No insurance, no VED, just put it all on the price of fuel.
I'll carry on riding where i can, and car for the rest of the time.
sobriety - Member"Its 90 miles which would be at least £25 in a car".
Can you break that down for me please.
Pertol, tax, servicing, depreciation. etc etc etc. P{eople dont realise how much their cvar actually cost them
http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_petrol_table.jsp
mrmo - you see I live in the real world and actually use public transport so I actually know what its like.
Fast frequent cheap reliable comfortable
That's a table, not a breakdown of your personal costs. I'd just like to see how you actually worked it out, as I reckon my car is probably cheaper 😉 and depreciation is only a problem if you intend to sell the car, rather than just running it into the ground.
Using public transport, using a sensibly sized car, using the inside lane.....yeah there's quite a few things many motorists feel are beneath them
Fast frequent cheap reliable comfortable
Depends on where you live, we get a train every hour and 4 buses a day, that's it really. I tried using the train on a few occasions only to be told it's full so I have to wait another hour!
Fuel is still cheap though without question.
sobriety - Member
depreciation is only a problem if you intend to sell the car, rather than just running it into the ground.
No - since you had to buy that car in the first place - depreciation is the cost of buying it spread over the remaining life of it.
Anyway, TJ's assertion that public transport is "Fast frequent cheap reliable comfortable" is just silly. It is in some places, it's not in many others. There are many reasons why (underinvestment in rail infrastructure being a goodie...) but that doesn't change the fact now.
Oh, petrol is too cheap IMO but I'll also admit that the problem is getting people to make the jump to public transport is difficult because right now it's so awful in many places and people aren't yet ready en-masse to take up cycling. When it does hit critical mass then the volume will help improve it. It's the transition that's going to be difficult for people.
All those who complain# about their ridiculous commutes - that is a matter of choices that you have made.
I didn't choose to get redundant from my previous job and then spend 6 months looking for an alternative. Ideally I would have taken a job much closer to home, but couldn't find one.
Sure I could have probably got one in a meat packing plant or cleaning toilets but that kinda defeats the point of doing a degree and gaining 10 years experience in a particular industry.
If I decided that I should 'weather the storm' and get a job closer to home, then I believe that this would disadvantage me when trying to get back into the work I want to do.
Visiting your parents by public transport is a bit different from having to do the 9-5 by public transport.
I have looked into public transport to work and it would take me over 2.5hrs per day to get to work and 2hrs 50 mins at least to get home.
My drive takes about 1hr 15 mins.
EDIT - oh and on a thread a while back I worked out that my car costs me about 18p/mile (because of the amount of miles I do). So 90 miles costs me about £16.
sobriety - thats a well researched table of the costs of a car as done my a motoring group. I think its about as objective as you are likely to get. You might get down to 20p a mile using bangernomics. Still cheaper to get the train - and you can read the paper, drink coffee, look out of the window and daydream from a train
Depreciation is always a cost - even if you run the car into the ground you still pay depreciation - buy it for £1000 and sell it for nothing a few years lather - £1000 that it has cost you
Its 90 miles which would be at least £25 in a car
Unless of course you have a car allowance or company car, as 10's of thousands do, then it's nowhere near those figures
old cars that - effectively - don't depreciate are much cheaper than that too
TJ
[i]Fast frequent cheap reliable comfortable [/i] may be true in Edinburgh, not so much round here.
As you know we live in a major conurbation and Debs uses public transport nearly all the time. Often I end up driving out to pick her up cos the bus hasn't turned up and the next one isn't due for an hour.
I have to own/use a car and for it to be available for work purposes whilst I am at work (it's written into my contract) so no real choice if I want to stay a community nurse. Given that there's no other nursing jobs availalble in my speciality for miles around I'm a bit stuck.
Fast frequent cheap reliable comfortable
Not so sure I agree with that!
And yes I and another co worker use the train regularly. If I am honest mine is bearable but it doesnt fulfil those 5 criteria, hers is late pretty much every day and has just gone up by £300!!
TJ that may be the case in your real world, but in the real world where i live, where due to certain decisions buses are run by different companies so you can't use transferable tickets, where you need multiple bus passes, buses that run hourly during the day when only the retired and some shift workers can use them. Where outlying villages get weekly buses, where you get the chavs swearing, arguing, fighting, it just isn't the place i want to be. As for trains, they are not convenient, yes you can buy mega advanced tickets for tupence if you book on a wednesday between 9:35 and 10.51 three months before you wish to travel.
I am not anti buses, i have an interview tomorrow, i know parking at the other end is crap, but i also know the bus stop is a couple of minutes from my house at this end and the bus stops at the destination . In this one case It is more convenient to use the bus, doesn't get round the cost issue on a turn up basis, which is alot for not very far. c£1/mile. But if i were to get the job then the price comes down to £1.50 a day as it makes sense to buy a bus pass. But i would probably ride and save even more. This one case is by far the exception not the rule.
If i want to get around town i will walk or ride, if i need to move between conurbations then i drive. Until issues such as luggage, of privacy, of price and crucially of convenience can be addressed public transport is fighting a loosing battle.
Look over the pond, ammericans spend the same on fuel for cars as us
Different set of circumstances altogether there. The reason they drive so far is that historically land has been cheap, so they have built very spread out cities. Partly this is because people like to have space but it's also partly because it's cheaper to build lots of one or two storey houses cheaply than it is to build tower blocks or town houses (we are talking a long time ago now). So the population is very spread out and the only financially viable way of shipping people around is to let them drive. And because there are now many of them there are a lot of miles driven.
Believe me, they ARE concerned about the cost of petrol.
I have 17-year-old students who drive less than 2 miles to college. While they continue to do that, I'll continue to think petrol's too cheap.
Ah yes, but the thing with driving two mile trips is that whilst PER MILE it is very wasteful and expensive, because it's only two miles overall it's not. At 15p/mile it's only £3.00 a week, less than a pint.
Unfortunately the argument that its still too cheap because people drive 2 miles to the shop doesn't really work. The fact that they are only going 2 miles means that whatever the cost it wont cost that much because even if they do it every day it wont cost that much because they will only be doing about 28 miles a week. Once petrol becomes so expensive that people wont drive the 2 miles to the shop it will be so expensive that nobody else will be able to leave the town they live in. People are just too fat and lazy.
Just remembered, I used to live in a village called Cottenham, about 6 miles north of Cambridge and work at a place called Bar Hill near Cambridge just off the A14. It was just over 7 miles to drive to work and took under 20 mins.
I looked at the bus option, but it meant getting the bus into Cambridge which i think took 40 mins. I then had to wait 20 mins or so for a bus to Bar Hill and then the journey to Bar Hill took another 25 mins or so, so it was easily getting on for an hour and a half journey time instead of 20 mins.....
I tried commuting, but the short stretch of the A14 I had to endure was too dangerous. I did it once and never again.
I grew up in London and didn't need a car while I was there. Public transport was great and I could never understand why everyone used to moan about it so much.
Now I don't live in London anymore I understand why it's so cak.
Pertol, tax, servicing, depreciation. etc etc etc. P{eople dont realise how much their cvar actually cost themhttp://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_petrol_table.jsp
Ah now I am all for public transport but that table doesn't really apply to my situation for example, of having a small car thats worth a few hundred quid that does 47mpg and very little to insure and service each year. The cost of me getting a train for my 300 mile trip at £53 is waay higher than the costs of driving it, especially when there are two of us - thats £100 on the train between us or about £30 in the car.
Its insane how much trains cost - should be the cheapest choice, tis a disaster.
I wonder how much cost the range rover sport type of beell end driver to fill up and how far that gets them, not that they will care.
So, we're all agreed that driving is too cheap and public transport is too expensive?
can we have an increase in taxation on private motoring, please? Followed by returning [i]public[/i] transport to the public?
bijim - so your cost are 1/3 of what the AA have calculated a small car costs 🙄
Your petrol alone will be more than £30 for that journey. You nver service it. you have zero depreciation, you don't insure and tax it?
Don't forget - TJ lives in Edinburgh - where public transport probably is relatively cheap, efficient and clean - largely because its been paid for by the rest of us,
Interesting that TJ also points out that the cost of the taxpayer of the car infrastructure... hows that tram scheme coming along TJ? Six hundred million quid at latest count isn't it?
Bit different when you grow up in rural Northumberland, get to eighteen years old, find there's no local jobs anymore and no local public transport bar the post bus...
Wonder if you've thought about the effect on all these Scottish trail centre's of reduced car use - yep, knock on effects for the rural economy of increased fuel prices are horrific... so, back to your townie utopia funded by the rest of us TJ
Its insane how much trains cost - should be the cheapest choice, tis a disaster.
Because there is limited supply. Trains are full, so they are clearly not too expensive from a commercial point of view.
Followed by returning public transport to the public
Yes, that's a starting point. Transport should not be a commercial enterprise, it is an essential amenity. Why the flippin heck should the profits of train travel be put into people's pockets and not re-invested into a system that so badly needs expansion (see above)?
Re cost of car ownership - it's silly to take the total depreciation, servicing and whatnot and divide it by the mileage to get the cost per mile. Once you've made a decision to own a car for whatever reason, that's what costs you the most - purchase price, depreciation (IF you want to factor it in), tax, insurance, and servicing (provided you don't do huge miles bringing the service intervals more frequent than yearly) are all a consequence of that decision. Then if you decide to drive to the shops, that's a far lower cost per mile since the rest of the costs are written off against a different cost centre, to use the business analogy.
[i]can we have an increase in taxation on private motoring, please?[/i]
What needs to happen is to scrap "road tax" (yes, I know it's called VED, I'm making a point...) and replace it with a pay-as-you-drive scheme. It'll never happen - too many worries about Big Brother tracking you, uproar from the politically well connected motoring lobby, outrage from the Daily Wail contingent etc but it'd really cut the number of people who "need" to drive. By making it a pay as you go, the costs suddenly become crystal clear unlike a once-per-year payment online to renew the tax disc.
It might also prompt proper car-sharing schemes, better public transport, a revival of the High street as people walk there instead of driving to out-of-town places, a better spread of traffic across the day (charge more at rush-hour to force flexible working for example).
Or am I just living in some sort of utopian ideal?
Zulu Eleven, your comment of about two hours ago to my last post is correct but also wrong-headed. Surely you can see it is farcical to suggest the only tax should be income tax?
Re cost of car ownership - it's silly to take the total depreciation, servicing and whatnot and divide it by the mileage to get the cost per mile
What needs to happen is to scrap "road tax" (yes, I know it's called VED, I'm making a point...) and replace it with a pay-as-you-drive scheme.
Agreed x 2
When going into town as a family (2 adults, 2 kids), it costs us a fortune to take the bus so we generally drive. The only car costs that change are petrol and parking, as we're paying the insurance, tax, depreciation, etc. anyway.
@TJ I'm with you on people driving too much e.t.c but the AA cost of motoring table is by having a car in the most expensive way, it can be much cheaper.
bijim - so your cost are 1/3 of what the AA have calculated a small car costsYour petrol alone will be more than £30 for that journey. You nver service it. you have zero depreciation, you don't insure and tax it?
Well yeah 29 litres of petrol is a bit more than £30 but a lot less than £50 anyway. Car can't depreciate much more but we will drive it into the ground anyway so its a cheap little gem, can't be bothered working out what the tax, servicing and insurance is per mile over a year is but its tiny, its a really cheap car to run. Point is, it is waaay cheaper than getting the train, especially more when both of us are going somewhere. Megabus would be cheaper than car but not so good for taking bikes and my ten foot legs.
IIRC, a full car is better than train anyway, CO2-wise?
Here's my snippet from the thread about running costs of a car:
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30k miles/yr. Assume £1.20/litre and I average 55mpg = around about £3k in fuel or £0.10/mile.
I paid £7.5k for it 4 years ago and it's now worth about £3k so that's £1125/yr or £0.0375/mile
Tax, MOT & Insurance costs ~£570/yr or £0.019/mile
Tyres and servicing (assuming nothing major goes pop) is about £500/yr or £0.0167/mile.
Hmmmm. Have I missed something there?? That only works out to £0.17/mile.
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Obviously fuel has gone up since then (10p/litre in <3 weeks) and it was pointed out to me that my tyres & servicing should be nearer £850 but even so that added less than 1p/mile to the total.
So call it 18.5p/mile currently.
Oh and that includes breakdown cover as it is included in my insurance.
Here's the original thread: http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-are-the-running-costs-of-a-car
What car do you get 55mpg in?
stumpy - because some costs are per year the more miles you do per year the lower the cost per mile. Teh AA numbers are for a car bought new so oeprciation is more for them
(assuming nothing major goes pop) is a part of it as well - more cost there possibly and I still wonder if your insurance ved and servicing figure is a bit low. Do you really get 55 mpg?
As I said above yo can get down to around 20 p a mile as you have - but most folk pay a lot more than that.
What car do you get 55mpg in?
TJ have you ever accepted a lift from anyone?
My old man gets 60-something from his Passat diesel, its insanely good.
I have carefully been working out my cost per mile, (including tax, insurance, breakdown, tyres, servicing (diy), depreciation) for my vehicles for the last 7 years. The price per mile has not changed in that time except for when I was running very cheap fuel (veg oil @ ~50p a litre)
7 years ago I had a petrol car that did 25-35mpg and required more often servicing and more expensive to tax/insure. My current diesel car does 47-55mpg and requires less servicing, cheaper tax/insurance. The only time I wince at the cost of a journey is if I take my superbike out and watch the tyres disappear before my eyes and the fuel burn like my petrol car of 7 years ago.
I expect to replace my current car with something that does 60mpg+ and don't expect the cost per mile overall to increase by much. I commute 90 miles per day, usually on a 65mpg motorbike.
What are your costs then solamander? I take it you do a lot of miles
All those who complain# about their ridiculous commutes - that is a matter of choices that you have made
TJ, I have to disagree with you here.
From my experience I haven't been able to do this until now. For 12 years or so I ended up working 20-odd miles from home.
I live in a nice village right next to Glasgow but there are no jobs for someone like me around here. I looked at public transport but the links are either terrible or non-existant.
Now, even when we were paying 60 something and 70 something pence per litre for petrol I still hated it as I'd rather keep that cash in the family pot. But to not work is not an option so commute it is.
I could have moved but we like where we live and the kids are settled etc. Plus, the first job lasted 4 years then the company moved down south, second just wasn't for me so I moved on, 3rd company were charlatans and ended up going belly up.
Now I work in a job I like and it's in the city centre meaning I can get a bus direct. Brilliant! It's £10 per week for a ticket - fantastic. But it all came down to a bit of luck.
In the past 12 years I always looked out for jobs close to home but they just were not there and trust me I looked.
I think it's down to government and planners how we ended up like this. Shopping 'malls' killed the high street, business parks built in an area out of towns and city etc etc. A lot of people don't have muxch of a choice.
I don't know how to fix it but I know it will take a long long time...
My costs are fairly low, in fact I reckon I make money out of it
Car allowance of £6k + getting something like 23-24p/mile for the first 10000 business miles
Just bought a 3yo car + 3 years warranty over 3 years on a 5% loan
I don't do a great deal of personal miles ~2500 pa
I think I'll come out with a profit 🙂
zedsdead - I could have moved
Hence it is a matter of choices made
I think it's down to government and planners how we ended up like this.
Certainly its a major part
Those cost per mile comparisons always get trotted out, have been for the last 30-odd years. Firstly, they take a new car and factor in depreciation. Not everyone buys new. Secondly, they don't take pleasure into account. I love my car, every time I see it I smile. I wanted one for years and finally got one. How much is that worth per mile? Public transport is horrible. It's expensive, at best inconvenient and deeply unpleasant. You can't put a price on convenience or freedom or fun. We did the 'general public are subsidising motorists' thing a couple of weeks ago and those who put that assertion forward were invited to provide specific figures. The could not. Having said all that, I think we could quite easily reduce the number of car journeys, but we will not do so.
As for me, I avoid driving wherever possible and actually use my cherished mountain bikes to commute on. However I resent the fact that rising fuel costs have made successive governments feel comfortable about hiking the cost of public transport - I believe the latter should be an incentive, not daylight robbery.
The costs of moving are too much for me. I don't earn a massive amount. Plus it would have meant uprooting 3 or 4 times. No thanks...
Karinofnine - MemberPublic transport is horrible. It's expensive, at best inconvenient and deeply unpleasant.
Rubbish - I use it - modern vehicles clean and tidy, convenient and easy - while being cheaper than a car. When did you last use it?
. We did the 'general public are subsidising motorists' thing a couple of weeks ago and those who put that assertion forward were invited to provide specific figures. The could not.
I gave you links to a series of figures from different sources - but you didn't want to hear so you didn't listen.
7 years ago I had a petrol car that did 25-35mpg and required more often servicing and more expensive to tax/insure. My current diesel car does 47-55mpg
That's not quite a fair comparison with the motoring world as a whole since 7 years ago you could also have had a diesel that did 47/55mpg.
TJ, we can't all live right near our jobs.
