[Closed] patriotism or racism?

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TJ to the Forum please

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Can sometimes be a thin line, having been brought up in NI, I CBA with patriotism, I don't really get why folk have to go on about their own country (it does seem the English - and Yorkshiremen vis a vis counties -do this more than other in the UK)

nationality is not the same as race...blah....etc.....blah.....zzzzz

[img] [/img]

Wanting to buy British is patriotic. Anybody who thinks otherwise is a sad delusional muppet.

All I can think of is Morris Marinas when I think of British built.

You can only be a non-racist nationalist if you're scottish apparently 😕

I hate patriotism but I could sort of see a point in buying a frame made in the uk over one from another country.

Doesn't even have to be considered patriotic. Why do you need to have a reason? And even if you do have a reason, what business is to for anyone else to concern themselves with?

A patriot loves their country, a nationalist hates everyone else's.

Does that help?

Someone (with a better memory than me) once said something like:

"To be a patriot is to love one's country; to be a nationalist is to hate everyone else's"

No different than wanting to buy an italian car or japanese car etc.

People like to badge and label everything these days and too many people like to get on their soap box and point the finger at other people to make them feel better and all powerful.

I use local suppliers at work as I like to keep the business local where I can, that doesn't mean I have anything against people who live outside 'my area'!!

Oh and I have a british designed and made bike, love it!

Bugger!

Yay! 😉

Someone (with a better memory than me) once said something like:

"To be a patriot is to love one's country; to be a nationalist is to hate everyone else's"

EDIT: ****. Too slow!

I'm anglo-irish, raised in zummerzet, with a scandinavian surname.

What makes me most proud of this 'ere island is our utterly mongrel heritage.

We're on a roll here...

[edit]

What makes me most proud of this 'ere island is our utterly mongrel heritage.

+1 to that. Always forgotten by the morons.

if they made bikes id buy one
[img] [/img]

FWIW I used to ride a (modern) Truimph motorbike. I loved it and was very proud it was made in the UK.

But I also love Italian cars and bikes and would be equally proud to own one.

Personally, I just think certain countries are better at making certain goods than others. Australian wine, British bikes and beer, French cheese, Cuban rum, Italian cars, clothes and food..... 😉

EDIT

What makes me most proud of this 'ere island is our utterly mongrel heritage.

Oh yes. Very true. 🙂

What makes me most proud of this 'ere island is our utterly mongrel heritage.

All the hardest people came here and deposited the contents of their trousers.

LOL! 🙂

Patroitism, the unwavering belief that somewhere is superior in every way simply because you were born there!

CaptainFlashheart - Member

[Tannoy]

TJ to the Forum please

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You called?

Its a fine line IM0 - love of your own country is fine, hatred of everyone else's country is not. I see nothing wrong in "buy british" - I always try to do so but thats from the point of view of "food miles" and so on - buying from close to home is "greener"

But then

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel

I am personally proud that we allowed Polish economic migrants in to the country. WE (Europe) owe a lot to the bravery of the SOE and RAF pilots that died in WWII.

The ability fo our nation to rise above selfish ideals exhibited in other parts of Europe, make me proud.

Proud to support British companies to. Food, Bike bits etc

I am personally proud that we allowed Polish economic migrants in to the country. WE (Europe) owe a lot to the bravery of the SOE and RAF pilots that died in WWII.

The ability fo our nation to rise above selfish ideals exhibited in other parts of Europe, make me proud.

Proud to support British companies to. Food, Bike bits etc

My frame is black.

Where does that leave me?

baked beans are great for cleaning metal parts, chains etc.

Hope Brakes, Hubs
Endura clothing
Exposure Max Lights
On One
Orange
Pace

None of these remind me of Austin Allegros or the Princess or the Maxi, not forgetting the Reliant

OK, you win

We owe the Polish nation nothing.

And Poland owes us a debt of gratitude for declaring war on Germany as a [i]direct[/i] result of Germany's attack on Poland.

We are however, indebted to the millions from the Commonwealth Countries who came to our aid. Including the largest volunteer army in history - the 2 million strong Indian army.

Shame that we appear to have forgotten their contributions, and yet we are so keen to welcome with open arms those to whom we owe nothing.

And Poland owes us a debt of gratitude for declaring war on Germany as a direct result of Germany's attack on Poland.

I think letting the russians have them kind of cancelled that particular debt out.

Oh I see, Britain was in a position to dictate where the Red Army went then ?

The difference between a Patriot and A Racist?

Well, the day Orange bring out a 5 inch travel freeride bike called the "The Racist" is the day the borders become blurred....

Ernie

Respect the facts dude. Poland provided a bunch of pilots and SOE operatives that had a massive impact upon the outcome of the war.

In regards to our debt? Churchill knew he condemned the Polish and East Germans to a Communist future out of fear of the Red Army.

There is a good chance the battle Britain would have been lost without the pilots who came to our aid.

Oh I see, Britain was in a position to dictate where the Red Army went then ?

Are you still smacking the keyboard over my remark [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-much-to-build-a-steel-hardtail-in-uk/page/2 ]"oh great. a BNP bike"[/url]? 🙂

Britain repatriated 1000s of Polish servicemen at the request of the Russians,who were subsequently murdered in the Katyn woods.That would seem to imply a debt to me.
Ian

Your nationality and race, and to a large part your religion, are all dependent on who your mum and dad were and where they happen to live. All this patriotism/nationalism is accidental at best.

I'm an Australian by birth place, English by parentage and location and it all means absolutely jeff all...

Just to put apposing slant on things buying from british manufacturing companys (which are usually small) could be viewed as being anti-capitalist. 🙂

FFS buy British!!!

The population of no other country would have such self doubt, I hope its just that those with an opposing interest can be bothered to post.

If you lot really dont see any value in a nation and supporting each other you should exit promptly.

Oh well, so if I buy a non orange Orange I'd be accused of being a communist and a racist?

Poland provided a bunch of pilots .......

And ?

We owe the Polish nation nothing.

They'd probably disagree and say they'd like all their young people back.

And in response to the original question, neither for me thanks very much.

You don't need to be patriotic to understand the benefits of buying British though.

They'd probably disagree......

So you think the Poles were only fighting to defend Britain do you ?

And it was just a [i]coincidence[/i] that the Germans had attacked and invaded their country ?

CaptainFlashheart - Member

[Tannoy]

TJ to the Forum please

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LOL! LOL! LOL!

TJ to the rescue!

😆

p/s: to the OP ... it's your money so do whatever you like with it. Buy British why not.

read your history, then come back and make a weak argument, OK?

Oh, and I'm not disrespecting the involvement of any part of any nation that saw fit to help out during the last WW. My comment was upon our ability to admit our responsibility to Poland, among others and allow them to help rebuild their nation again. That provides me with a sense of pride.

I don't see how you can say we owed them nothing.

Can you explain that?

Poland provided a bunch of pilots .......

And ?

Poles provided some important help to the Allies throughout the war. Polish soldiers fought on land, on the seas and in the air. Notable was the service of the Polish Air Force, not only in the Allied victory in the Battle of Britain but also the subsequent war in the air; the defense of Tobruk; the capture of the German-held monastery hill of Monte Cassino; a role in the battle of the Falaise pocket; and an airborne brigade parachute drop during Operation Market Garden. Some Polish contributions were less visible, and most notably included the prewar and wartime decyphering of German Enigma machine codes by cryptologists Marian Rejewski and his colleagues. The Polish intelligence network also proved to be of much value to the Allied intelligence.

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_contribution_to_World_War_II [/url]

Can you explain that?

I thought I just did.

Read it again :

We owe the Polish nation nothing.

And Poland owes us a debt of gratitude for declaring war on Germany as a direct result of Germany's attack on Poland.

We are however, indebted to the millions from the Commonwealth Countries who came to our aid. Including the largest volunteer army in history - the 2 million strong Indian army.

Shame that we appear to have forgotten their contributions, and yet we are so keen to welcome with open arms those to whom we owe nothing.

We owe the Poles no more, than what is owed to all those who fought for the allies in WW2. And if you want to talk numbers, then India contributed far more than Poland. So if you want to "allow economic migrants in to the country" on the basis of what their country did in WW2, then India should be well above Poland.

Unless of course, you are some sort of racist.

We didn't deliberately repatriate Indians knowing that they were to be killed,as we did with the Poles.
Ian

We didn't deliberately repatriate Indians knowing that they were to be killed,as we did with the Poles.

So let me get this right.

Are we indebted to the Poles for what they did for us ?

Or is it, for what we did to them ?

Because if it is some sort of "guilt" issue that we're talking about here, then the citizens of the Commonwealth/former Empire should definitely have priority over those from Poland.

There were an awful lot of peoples got shafted in the aftermath of the war. Countries ( including poland) getting bits of territory given away. Lots of repatriated peoples killed.

Some ruthless decisions were made.

So Ernie has a point - there is no particular debt between us and the Poles that that does not exist between other nations. What about Yugoslavia?

i am not gonna put my twopenneth in this debate......
just one thing.
ERNIE-LYNCH............you don't half make me laugh....... 😆

Hmmm.

Sounds like ernie has had a tough day down in the tractor factory to me.

[i]We owe the Poles no more, than what is owed to all those who fought for the allies in WW2.[/i]

[i]So Ernie has a point - there is no particular debt between us and the Poles that that does not exist between other nations.[/i]

So both of you admit that there is a debt; the same debt that we owe to all those who fought with us in the second world war?

..and as for the 'if you think Poland is owed a debt you are a racist'..... come on, you can do better than that Ernostovich

What about Yugoslavia?

The Yugoslav partisans kept 14 German Divisions busy during WW2.

But this nonsense that we should welcome people on the basis of what their country did in WW2 is complete bollox. Because presumably by the same token, no Germans or Japanese should be allowed to settle down and work in the UK.

[i]But this nonsense that we should welcome people on the basis of what their country did in WW2 is complete bollox.[/i]

But nobody said we should!

One person said he was proud that we did, and you've managed to twist that into some kind of racist accusation.

Nothing wrong with being patriotic and supporting your country be it economical or sporting or otherwise, there is however a problem when it becomes fanatical as that is in my opinion when it becomes racist orientated.

One of the Economic trends being forecast for the coming years is "Not Made In China" following the current economic crisis.

you've managed to twist that into some kind of racist accusation.

no way, ernie..........never........... 😆

Yugoslavians probably were stitched up as badly at the end of the war. The various countries lost territory and IIRC there were retaliatory massacres in the aftermath - and the recent Balkan wars in part at least result from the stitch up at the end of WW2

It had nothing to do with WWII. (Letting in the gurkhas from Nepal did however).

The economic migrants came here because we are in the EU and we voted for a free market in labour, goods, services and capital.

Just buy the best bike for the money. At least if there is a problem it might be easier to get some after sales service from a British company.

Britain repatriated 1000s of Polish servicemen at the request of the Russians,who were subsequently murdered in the Katyn woods.That would seem to imply a debt to me.
Ian

The Katyn massacre was in 1939/1940 Britain repatriated after the war.
Unless of course you know of a second Katyn massacre

Are these bikes going to be made in Poland now? Or India?

But nobody said we should!

So what does that mean then ? :

[i]"I am personally proud that we allowed Polish economic migrants in to the country. WE (Europe) owe a lot to the bravery of the SOE and RAF pilots that died in WWII."[/i]

So 'allowing Polish economic migrants' has nothing to do with WW2 then ? Talk about "twisting" things 🙄

ton - Member

i am not gonna put my twopenneth in this debate......

Ah, but you have. And very well put, may I say 😀

patriotism or racism?

is it a choice, why can't I be both if I Want!!!!

Bloody...... Errr, everyone else!!!

I think you need a lie down Ernie; you are usually much more on the ball than this.

[url= http://www.zumbicycles.com/english/ozumbi.php ]Made in Poland[/url]

you are usually much more on the ball than this.

Nope, I am consistently "off-message".

No, what I mean is that your arguments are of a reasonably consistent high standard, and you are usually entertaining and a pleasure to read. You just seem to be a bit under par today.

( the above is actually a serious comment and not a attempt to take the mickey)

Ernie, you make BNP/UKIP sound sensible. Read first, it isn't too difficult.
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BTW If all the non-Brits left London, where would you buy a cup of coffee?
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[i]Off to Lidl to support the local economy :-D[/i]

So 'allowing Polish economic migrants' has nothing to do with WW2 then ?

Got it in one 🙂

crikey - It has become fashionable in recent years, to single out the Poles for their contribution during WW2. The Poles during WW2 fought for themselves - not for Britain. Nothing wrong with that, only, lots of other countries did exactly the same thing. It's nonsense to suggest that Britain owes Poland a special debt. Britain and the Free Polish Forces could not have defeated the Axis Powers alone. Everyone played their part, and plenty of countries provided as much manpower as Poland, some like India provided far more. Besides, what happened during WW2 in that respect, is completely irrelevant to the issues concerning economic migration.

if i wanted a british built british bike, i would buy it.
if some one called me a nasty name, i would hound him till he explained why he had called me that nasty name. 8)

and i know, i just can't help it............. 😀

There's nowt wrong with being proud of your country / heritage - as other's on here have already said, there's a big difference between patriotism and nationalism. I've owned a couple of Orange bikes, and a Triumph (motor)bike, but I bought them primarily because they were good bikes, not because they were British.

Who cares what others think, how can you be racist because you want to buy something British?

Yes Ern, but there is a difference between suggesting that the Polish contribution is no more significant than others, and suggesting that we owe Poland nothing.

I think you need an early night.

...and incidentally, I'm old enough to remember the original 'buy british' campaign, and its associated British Standard rubbish. If we made high quality stuff I would buy it, if we are making crap i'll pass thanks.

Some of you folk on here need therapy. Can someone tell me why it's okay for us to be 'proud' of what Poland did in WW2 yet to be patriotic and proud about our country and it's heritage is a bad thing? I buy British if I can because I would rather support some bloke in Halifax so he can keep his job, stay off the dole and increase my standard of living. Manufacturing in the UK has lost more than one million jobs under Nulabour, a worse record than Thatcher. Without manufacturing the Midlands, for example would die. Every country I have ever lived in has supported it's own industries, only Britain seems to have this weird, self loathing, navel gazing attitude.

there is a difference between suggesting that the Polish contribution is no more significant than others, and suggesting that we owe Poland nothing.

Ah, I see.........you believe that Britain owes the [i]whole[/i] world something !

I disagree. And I believe that Britain owes Poland nothing.

Nor does Poland owe Britain anything, for that matter.

In fact, as a general rule, I would say that no one, owes anyone else, anything.

Not even the Germans 😯

That's another point Ern, if we are obliged to allow Poles to move and work here to fulfill a WW2 debt then by the reasoning of the Guardian reading types all Germans, Italians and Japs want rounding up and deporting, right?