I think parkrun is great and it's a real shame that they aren't prepared to put on the 200+ events where they have permission.
Just think how much it would help persuade any foot-draggers amongst the landowners, if there were already events running successfully up and down the country. If parkrun HQ could have got their act together, they could have been running events from at least this weekend, possibly sooner.
Instead we get tantrums and incitement of internet pile-ons. It's a really unedifying spectacle. You'd think they might have learnt something from last October's debacle, but no, they are parkrun and they are special(ly stupid).
is that all that is required to run a Parkrun currently?
You only need to take a barcode if you want your time recorded – you can turn up without one and run but you are asked not to go down the finishing tunnel and take a token as that will screw up the timings.
they are parkrun and they are special(ly stupid).
That is an incredibly unfair and unjust thing to say. Landowners of too many sites are not willing to give permission and parkrun aren't keen on taking the shifted blame if the knock-on is that events that do go ahead are massively over-subscribed and unsafe (for whatever reason, not just COVID). For example, my local run (Harrogate Stray) has two borders that back directly onto busy roads and already some people end up on running on them (despite being asked not to). If it went ahead but others in the area didn't and we had 500 runners rather than the usual 250-ish, then the risk of more people going onto roads becomes amplified.
As I said just up-thread, any simple pre-reg system would knock all those worries on the head. They just aren't prepared to try...
"It isn't parkrun"
Well, what we have currently isn't parkrun, in spades.
As I said just up-thread, any simple pre-reg system would knock all those worries on the head. They just aren’t prepared to try…
Because it's not simple and it's not necessary.
As I said just up-thread, any simple pre-reg system would knock all those worries on the head. They just aren’t prepared to try…
Who checks the pre-registered runners? Who would turn away runners without a pre-reg? What happens when someone refuses to leave the area because they don't have a pre-reg? It just isn't workable IMO.
I should clarify - by "run", I meant "organise". I'm sure there's a lot more to it, especially now, than scanning barcodes.
My point is - with the current state of public perception, and a media on the look out for juicy headlines, I can understand why a volunteer-run organisation, dedicated to literally bringing people physically together to run, does not want to stick their neck out and organise events. Especially as there will be all sorts of extra requirements for the organisers. Saying that they are "simple" does not make it so.
If it's so easy, step up to the plate and organise something yourself.
Apparently, 250 of 589 Parkrun venues have given permission to re-start, i.e. without any kind of pre-registration system. Are the advocates of such a system saying that these 250 venues have got it wrong?
I think parkrun is great and it’s a real shame that they aren’t prepared to put on the 200+ events where they have permission.
So, in my area there are 3 parkruns within 4 miles. One gets permission, the others don't. The one that is open is over attended. I think that the approach they are taking is sensible given the circumstances.
they are parkrun and they are special(ly stupid)
Pot / kettle.
As I said just up-thread, any simple pre-reg system would knock all those worries on the head. They just aren’t prepared to try…
Increasing cost and complexity and not guaranteed to stop people attending.
Apparently, 250 of 589 Parkrun venues have given permission to re-start, i.e. without any kind of pre-registration system
Do we know for sure that Parkrun has been given permission (at those venues) to re-start with no further Covid measures needed? I can't believe that to be true.
Also, sad to see the state of Wales - no sign of being able to re-start at all.
No I'm saying that parkrun has got it wrong by refusing to start up at those venues where it has permission.
No need to turn away unregistered runners, just don't publish results for them. Since parkrunners only turn up for the published results (they aren't running now, and many of them whine when they forget their barcodes and get left off) and the vast majority of parkrunners aren't completely antisocial gits, I'm confident the vast majority won't turn up to sabotage an event where they are asked to stay away.
It's not even clear that a large majority of parkrunners are keen to return at the soonest possible opportunity. It's possible, but far from certain. Parkrun HQ hasn't bothered to ask them, instead preferring questionnaires over such matters as "who do you trust more for information on covid - the govt or parkrun?"
That's great, but whose fault would it be for organising an event where an "illegal" number of people showed up with no control? I'm not sure Parkrun would be able to absolve responsibility by saying "well, they shouldn't be here".
No I’m saying that parkrun has got it wrong by refusing to start up at those venues where it has permission.
Ah, I see we have a Schrodinger critique: Parkrun is simultaneously being over-cautious and not cautious enough.
Parkrun has developed a framework for re-starting, with appropriate CV19 measures. That framework has been approved by the relevant national bodies and the government. So it seems to me that they've already jumped through all the relevant hoops any reasonable person could expect of them.
The alternative view is they are managing the obvious risk better than our government has handled potential risk....
Just look at the mugs desperate to go on holiday knowing full well the risks of having to quarantine at great cost claiming it's ok cause the gov say it's ok...that's your folk that turn up to a parkrun without registering. Because you have never had to register for parkrun..
People will be people
ransos, you could try dealing with what I said rather than making up "clever" evasions.
twrch, once again for the hard of reading, the only reason *parkrun* have given for not starting up these events is that *parkrun* is concerned about their own volunteers being overwhelmed. Nothing related to landowner demands. These landowners have already given permission. Parkrun could even run untimed events to start with. The idea that thousands would turn up for a mass jog round the park at the same time, when asked to stay away, and with no official recognition or listing in results, is pretty far-fetched.
I think it's you who is not understanding Parkrun's situation. They have permission to operate, (I assume) with some level of Covid measures required, at a limited number of venues. That's already an extra burden on event organisers and volunteers. If one of the tasks is "make sure everyone stays 1m apart", it's a completely legitimate concern that volunteers might be overwhelmed in that task if there are 1/3rd the usual number of Parkrun events, along with anywhere near the usual level of demand (which, for my local one, was already way bigger than the space really allowed).
ransos, you could try dealing with what I said rather than making up “clever” evasions.
It's pretty difficult to deal with someone who can't even grasp the precautionary principle.
it’s a completely legitimate concern that volunteers might be overwhelmed in that task if there are 1/3rd the usual number of Parkrun events, along with anywhere near the usual level of demand (which, for my local one, was already way bigger than the space really allowed).
Well, quite. My local Parkrun used to attract 500+ people on a good day, and that's with all the neighbouring events operating. I think their stated target of 80% or more events operating is proportionate and sensible.
I suppose thecaptain is assuming people won't show up. For one - I'm sure that people who hear that Parkrun is back on, mostly won't bother scouring the internet for the official source and check that they are allowed to go. For two - I'm desperate to do any kind of social events again, and I know I'm not the only one.
I volunteer for junior Parkrun. At the moment admin amounts to passing a scanner over the runners’ barcodes. It’s incredibly simple.
@ransos – is that all that is required to run a Parkrun currently?
No its not, far from it. My wife volunteers as a run director for the local junior event. There is way more to it than that. The number of marshalls required has gone up so the first headache is filling all those spots. No marshalls, no run. Then there is sorting the kit out, washing all the marshalls bibs, posting details to the facebook group. Sorting and sanitising the finish tokens. The on duty RD has is at the venue a lot earlier to walk the whole course and setup the signs/finish funnel. There is the poo picking (our event finished on grass), dealing with complaints (normally dog walkers) and the ever present forgotten barcode discussion. The results processing seems to have got easier now that the scanners and stop watches are not is use (replaced by app on volunteer phones).
I'm sure there are other bits I've missed and the RD's haven't had to deal with the covid framework to the same extent as the event directors. Yes its not rocket science but the above was a very simplistic representation. For the bigger events it must be a huge task.
The only way to do it is to reopen them all at the same time, to stop the few getting swamped, as others have said. That just needs national direction, and, of course, willing volunteers locally.
I don’t. It would work on goodwill.
Like Boris's common sense?
Thanks - exactly as I thought. Organising and volunteering was already a time and effort commitment before Covid, it's now a much bigger hassle with Covid requirements, and you have to wade through paperwork, government regulations, and people unwilling to take risks the entire way. And people like my dad and thecaptain can't wrap their heads around why people don't want to do it now, and somehow expect it to all just get worked out for them.
Yes its not rocket science but the above was a very simplistic representation.
I was describing what I have to do as a volunteer marshal. I made no comment about race directors and I'm aware that they have far more to organise.
Anyway, my wife is volunteering at junior Parkrun on Sunday so it will be interesting to see what changes there are. My understanding is that the runners still just need to bring a barcode so it seems to be fairly simple from their POV.
Do we know for sure that Parkrun has been given permission (at those venues) to re-start with no further Covid measures needed? I can’t believe that to be true.
It is the case, so get believing. parkrun (again, small p, 1 word...) HQ issued guidance on Covid along with a few small changes to how barcodes are scanned and that is it. On that basis, 250 landowners have given the nod, and I believe more will come out shortly.
It’s not even clear that a large majority of parkrunners are keen to return at the soonest possible opportunity.
Again, this is incorrect.They surveyed a large number of participants, both as runners and volunteers and found the overriding majority were keen for a return and would participate.
Serious @thecaptain, please ask me any question you want on the comeback and I'll give you an answer. I'm a Run Director (in charge of the event on the day) at our local junior event and the Event Director (in charge of the event as a whole) at our local 5k event and have been involved in the planned come back for months. So far, it seems you don't understand how the events work, or more importantly, why people attend.
Anyway, my wife is volunteering at junior Parkrun on Sunday so it will be interesting to see what changes there are. My understanding is that the runners still just need to bring a barcode so it seems to be fairly simple from their POV.
The changes to Juniors are very small. Hand sanitiser is available, the timing and scanning is being done by phone app and all hi-viz and tokens are washed after each event. And that's about it.
The changes to Juniors are very small. Hand sanitiser is available, the timing and scanning is being done by phone app and all hi-viz and tokens are washed after each event. And that’s about it.
Great. And thanks for your work to bring your event back.
Meanwhile, here in Wales, we do things a little differently, and will be sitting on our asses for a while longer.
Lunge - thank you for organising those events. They worked perfectly well in the past, and hopefully you'll be back to that model in short order.
It is astonishing how some people are so negative, and so keen to complicate simple things
so keen to complicate simple things
I'm 110% with you there. I despair at our "new normal", where everything apparently needs an app and an account. One of my lockdown projects was giving up my smartphone, so we'll see what kind of life I end up living.
lunge, if you had a simple web form pre-registration limited to 200 (or 500, or whatever you feel is safe for your location), and asked that no others attended (and didn't publish results from any unregistered runners), then what problems do you think you would face with putting on your parkrun on the 5th?
I don't think it is unreasonable to claim that a registration system could have been designed and built in the past year. Let's face it, every other running event, from tiny to vast, operates a system along these lines. The reason parkrun isn't doing it, is not that it would be too difficult for them. Rather, it is that they would prefer not to have parkrun at all, than to make this very modest and temporary change to how they operate.
I don’t think it is unreasonable
I do. Writing and deploying a registration system to be used at hundreds of different events is a large technical undertaking, and unlikely to be completed to any kind of quality for free. Apart from that, you'd have to pay to host it somewhere.
Other events charge money for a reason.
You are really quite demanding on the volunteers who give their time and effort to organise nice things for you.
I am very curious to know the answer to your first question though.
twrch, you really don't think it would be technically feasible to introduce a registration system within a year? What sort of time scale would you expect for such a...demanding task?
Let's say we did have a registration system. What's the first thing a council or other land owner would ask? "Great, 300 people have registered, who/how do we check who's actually attending?". "we don't, we trusting people not to show up", "oh really, what happens if they do turn up? Will you have a record", "no, as they won't have their barcode scanned so we'll have no want of knowing they attended", "right..."
You can have a register if you check it, if you check it you will have more gathering, more time at the venue and more faff, neither of which the land owners or parkrun want. You'll also need another huge amount of volunteer time.
This is all ignoring the fact that all research by both parkrun and the government suggests it's not necessary anyway.
Having been a volunteer before, getting 300+ people to do something simple like not change position in the finishing funnel is hard enough work, I did a lot of shouting to co-ordinate that. Getting everyone there tracked and traced as well would be a stretch.
I can't wait for it to re-start, but I fully support the delay in getting it done till enough as open to not overload a single event.
What sort of time scale would you expect for such a…demanding task?
thecaptain - it depends. How many people can I employ to do the task? If you were using volunteers in their spare time, it would be practically impossible to co-ordinate the number of people needed to get the work done.
If you work in the business of developing online applications, I'm sure you'll be delighted at the opportunity to roll one out nationwide for free. If not, then you have no idea what you're asking for.
Ah, sod it, I might regret this, but for TheCaptain's benefit, here is the work that I, an volunteer Event Director, have to do on a normal week when I am also the run director on the Saturday. This is without any additional work that's Covid specific. Note, i am not looking for any kind of sympathy here, I do it as I love the event and the benefit it brings to people, but it is not an insignificant amount of work.
Monday - Friday:
Ensure last weeks results are sorted and any changes made.
Deal with any other enquiries from the event (lost property, how does parkrun work, "why have I got no time", "I finished ahead of him, why do the results not say that?", "sorry i can't volunteer this week after all")
Report any incidents to the local authority and parkrun HQ, follow-up paperwork as needed.
Wash 35 hi-viz jackets, 400 finish token and anything else that has come in contact with people.
Try and coax 35 people to volunteer the following weekend. This normally involves and 2-mails and/or 2 or 3 Facebook posts and then reading all the replies and inputting them onto the systems. A final "please don't forget to turn-up" e-mail is sent towards the end of the week
Ensure our DofE volunteers are happy and being used properly. Write their reports if it's that time of year.
2 other social media posts, generally positive "come and run with us" type things
Saturday:
Check e-mails and see if I've had any volunteer drop-outs
Arrive at venue around 7:30am, walk/run the course to make sure it's all clear and good to go.
8am start the event set-up and get all the kit in the right place and the course layed out
8:15, volunteers start to arrive, ensure they know where to go and what to go. Training on scanning or timing as needed.
8:30, volunteers are out, talks to runners, greet new arrivals, deal with any issues with set-up as they occur.
8:50, first timers briefing
9am, run brief and start the event
9:15, first runner back
9:15 - 10am - greet returning runners, deal with any timing issues, make sure all is well
10am, pack up kit
10:30am, process results and send thank you e-mails to volunteers
11am, leave venue ensuring the venue managers are happy.
Rest of saturday, respond to e-mails as needed
So please don't say it's easy and sensible to ask for more volunteer time.
On a positive note; if you can't go running then at least the pubs are open again
You could have a few pints and contemplate your lifestyle choices instead? Maybe have a little cry and a packet of pork scratchings?
On a positive note; if you can’t go running then at least the pubs are open again
You could have a few pints and contemplate your lifestyle choices instead? Maybe have a little cry and a packet of pork scratchings?
Ah Binners, you forget, you run to earn your beers. There are few better tasting beers than the one sat outside a pub in the sunshine at the end of a good run. Plus, the scratchings help put your salt levels back to normal.
Its the dream combination 🙂
As an aside, Rowan, who runs our local running club and is an all round top bloke is today on his last of 22 marathons in 22 days to raise money for homeless charities. Bonkers!
On a positive note; if you can’t go running then at least the pubs are open again
You could have a few pints and contemplate your lifestyle choices instead?
Proper laughed at that
I have a pic of a sign saying "Before you complain, have you volunteered?" It used to be deployed on a lot of Scout and cycle club posts. Stars like Lunge keep these wonderful things going and make hundreds of people happy, week in, week out
The only way to do it is to reopen them all at the same time, to stop the few getting swamped, as others have said.
We have two park runs in our town, within less than a mile of each other.
Would be far better here if they did just reopen one of them. Then, those that want to run round with a couple of hundred others have got somewhere to do it. And those that can't - still shielding, vulnerable, can still use a safe outdoor space on a Saturday morning. To take both parks seems selfish now. Park use has changed over the last 15 months, and for some vulnerable people, their other options are very limited.
I agree with you on the web registration (I've never done a parkrun but thought most people had a barcode they swipe at the start / finish). Given changes other sports are making doesn't seem unreasonable. Nor would it be ridiculous to stagger starts if they don't already. However, having had the joy of dealing with Local Authority people over this sort of thing I don't think they would all have a consistent view / approach and I think that makes it very difficult.
Parkrun HQ have had a year to think this through and it’s a shame they aren’t prepared to even try to put on the 200+ parkruns that already have permission, with such a modest change to their procedures.
I think given the media attention cancelling all of them has had, and the consequential pressure of the stubborn LA's this potentially gets them back to "near normal" sooner. It will also potentially help all the other organisations who have been fighting local council arbitrary rules for the last few months by seeing top level government direction provided to authorities. There's lots of well-meaning people in local authorities but they often focus on their own perception of a problem rather than the bigger picture.
I assume parkrun have refunded @TheCaptain his parkrun fees and he will be investing them in setting up a competing service?
"all research by both parkrun and the government suggests it’s not necessary anyway."
I don't understand how you can make that statement.
It is parkrun themselves who have argued that it is necessary to limit numbers at their events.
The only method they are prepared to consider in order to achieve this is to ensure that there are so many events on simultaneously that they will not have too many people choosing to attend any given event. But the problem of an overly large attendance is the one reason they have specifically highlighted as the reason for not opening up the parkruns that currently have permission. Clearly, parkrun believe it is necessary to limit attendance, even if you don't.
I don’t understand how you can make that statement.
Because it's what the evidence says. You could try reading it. The thing about attendance is about events being overwhelmed, as has already been pointed out
