Panorama. E-bikes the battle for our streets.

Thats a really helpful and adult attitude!
If you cant make a reasoned argument resort to abuse.

What??

(That's me wondering who gave you the job of policing my forum posts, in case you were wondering)

I presume you haven't seen the programme.

I don’t, but I read something on road.cc about him writing there that £4k cargo bikes were a class thing. Quality take, Mr C.

It's here if you want to lose a few more brain cells:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/16/3999-for-a-cargo-bike-how-a-new-kind-of-class-politics-arrived-on-britains-streets

Turns out that the height of middle class entitlement is not a £40,000 SUV being driven half a mile to the school gates, it's actually a £4000 e-cargo bike! Who knew?!

There is no need for reasoned argument when the other side haven't bothered themselves.

The real subject for that 'documentary' should have been an investigation into the food delivery companies and their links to slavery, tax avoidance and migrant exploitation.

If they want another target to go after how about the badly thought out and poorly implemented laws on electrified personal transport or even the complete lack of any joined up cycle infrastructure...but no obviously its easiest to just punch down. I hate the media so much.

maybe “Pedelec” for bikes that are electric assisted, and leave “E-bike” for surrons and such.

Or even 'assisted' for electrically assisted bikes (that you still have to pedal) and 'e-bikes' for surrons and such. ?

HArdly any effort put in to differentiate between an expensive 500w E-bike , chipped or not , and a 8kw Suron style EMX bike capable of 40mph .

Or the mini crime wave of street robbery and drug dealing that seems to be mainly  yoofs on EMX bikes.

My god that was poor…

Little in the way of facts or actual evidence just lame & poorly conceived opinions.

Only the summary at the end offered anything useful & that was poor.

I

Or even ‘assisted’ for electrically assisted bikes (that you still have to pedal) and ‘e-bikes’ for surrons and such. ?

E-Bike for Surrons

EA-bike for a bike you pedal too......EA = Electrically Assisted...

As with the battle for the name 35-40 years ago between MTB and ATB, I think the ship sailed for having a name that actually makes sense.

If you aren’t happy about it complain to the BBC. It’s about as easy as posting on here and at least you’ll be ranting to the right person

If you really think the state of the BBC is down to not enough letters to the right person I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

I watched the whole programme.  Another example of irresponsible, inaccurate and sensationalist journalism.

There are issues with throttle-controlled machines and derestricted e-bikes.  Once again the problems with these two types of illegal vehicles used irresponsibly and criminally, were conflated with the responsible and legal use of legally compliant e-bikes.  The programme made no consistent differentiation.

A throttle-controlled machine or a derestricted e-bike is an electric moped and the rider should be licensed and insured as such.

One of the issues the police seem to face is the widespread disruption caused by some members of the public and public condemnation, that when the police pursue people using throttle-controlled and derestricted ebikes, they are blamed for riders injuries and deaths.

What was their conclusion? there needs to be control, but there is control, but the actual issue is enforcement of illegal ebikes and crap infrastructure.

The use of casualty statistics were also concerning. It said 189 people were killed or seriously injured by a cycle in 2023.  Sounds a lot but seriously injured just means hospitalisation so could be anything from laceration to a life changing injury.  There were 12 fatalities in between 2019 to 2023. Nearly 2,000 peds were killed by cars, 27,000 seriously injured so people being hit and KSI is a tiny proportion but the panorama failed to contextualise and chose to sensationalise.

Doesn't really help that the talking head journalist was a telegraph writer.  The same telegraph who have been part of the culture wars on bikes.

I didn't watch this, largely as it was Chiles and I'd rather stick red hot pins in my eyes than listen to a man whose Guardian column is entirely due to his own talents and not, say, being married to the editor.

It seemed pretty obvious it would be a hatchet job that missed both the potential of e-bikes for decarbonising transport, and that they don't need more rules if the ones we've already got were adequately enforced.

/rant

EA-bike for a bike you pedal too……EA = Electrically Assisted…

Doesnt cover the illegal variants of them though. For cases where it matters eg reporting crimes I would go for

e-bicycle

e-moped

e-motorbike.

With the latter two generally being prefixed with "illegal".

It said 189 people were killed or seriously injured by a cycle in 2023.

This is probably a Dft or Tfl statistic. It's important to remember they don't record the type of tranport that caused an incident, just what was involved. That should really read, 189 people killed or seriously injured in a collision involving a bicycle.

Good point.  complete misuse of statistics then

I still feel that the emphasis on speed rather ignores the fact that a reasonably fit individual on a pushbike can maintain 20mph easily, and with a bit of effort and a following wind/slight downhill can get 30-40mph. I once had to keep feathering my brakes following a car down hill into Lacock, at around 25-30mph. On my singlespeed. I overtook a Fiesta with a bunch of teens in at the bottom of my road, at 35mph according to my speedometer. In the big ring, downhill with a tailwind I got 45mph. Frankly, wearing regular bike gear it was more than a little scary!

Personally, I rather fancy the new Segway Xiber e-bike. With the double battery system it’s good for 110 miles, 0-20 in 2.7 seconds, it can, apparently, be overridden for off-road use to 30mph. 1300lmn headlight. Looks like a riot on some of the byways around here…

If anyone can still be bothered with this. Good article - includes link for Ofcom complainings :

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/in-depth/deconstructed-the-bbcs-panorama-e-bike-segment-and-its-many-flaws

l haven't watched, as it'll just wind me up, but I have noticed that the Bicycle Association have put in a formal complaint about the program to the BBC.

https://bicycleassociation.org.uk/news/press-release/60/60-BA-complains-to-BBC-about-Panorama-e-bike-misrepresentation

I still feel that the emphasis on speed rather ignores the fact that a reasonably fit individual on a pushbike can maintain 20mph easily,

Easily? I don't think a reasonably fit person on any old pushbike actually could.

And just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/in-depth/deconstructed-the-bbcs-panorama-e-bike-segment-and-its-many-flaws^ This is good, as always from Mark Sutton. Edit - link repeat, sorry

I thought the overall lack of clarity on the e-bike Vs illegal or unresistered e-motorbike point was worth a complaint anyway -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint

when the police pursue people using throttle-controlled and derestricted ebikes, they are blamed for riders injuries and deaths

This. It seems nowadays the standard scenario is: parents buy theirs kid an illegal EMX bike, said kid rides it like a dick, gets chased by police because they're riding an unregistered, uninsured motorbike with a pillion and without a helmet. They then hit some kind of stationary/hard object and die, riots then ensue because the police were chasing a criminal (their job) and no-one questions all the steps that led to what is a very avoidable death.

It's stupid crap like it's not illegal to sell them as long as you promise to use them on private land that's caused the problem.

Just to make it all worse there's just not enough officers to clamp down on anything.

Good link from PJay up there. I think I'll use that and add some more about the programme's shitness (slightly better worded, of course) and send complaints to Ofcom and BBC

Easily? I don’t think a reasonably fit person on any old pushbike actually could.

Maybe for short distance but certainly not for long. If you look at any roadie club and look at their club ride requirements 20mph average generally puts you into the serious bunch and thats with drafting etc.

So no chance the average rider is coming close to that. If you are without serious training then get bleeping training and you will probably be on a pro team by next year.

Aye, saw a helmet-less Surron rider eat shit in Bradford yesterday, promptly nicked by the police who where pursuing him. Ice is a bitch.

I chalked that one up as a win for the common person.

Personally, I rather fancy the new Segway Xiber e-bike. With the double battery system it’s good for 110 miles, 0-20 in 2.7 seconds, it can, apparently, be overridden for off-road use to 30mph. 1300lmn headlight. Looks like a riot on some of the byways around here…

A bit of a tangent, but please bear in mind that a byway is still legally a road, and all the usual rules WRT speed limits, insurance, registration, VED, and safety equipment apply.  '[F]or off-road use' should really read 'for use on private land'.

I watched the programme yesterday and agree that it was pretty poor. They had a section with Police officers on normal bikes stopping some riders and confiscating illegal ebikes and then trying to chase a rider and losing them. There was an opportunity to ask the rank-and-file coppers what they thought would be necessary to fix the issues but they did not. It seemed the conclusion they wanted viewers to draw was that riders of illegal bikes are pretty much immune from being caught.

The programme wrapped up with Chiles opining that the rules are unclear and nobody understands them. This is pretty much BS - they could have offered some suggestions on how to fix the issues but failed to do so. No mention of stopping the sale of illegal bikes/conversion kits or requiring food delivery companies to have some accountability for the riders actions.

One interesting bit was an interview with a food delivery rider who said that there are increasing numbers of people doing this work and it is becoming harder to earn decent money doing it.

There was no section for positive ideas to be pitched which was a missed opportunity. I think the likes of Just Eat, Deliveroo etc. are of a size where they could offer schemes where riders could lease e-mopeds from them including insurance etc. with GPS tracking. This could be complimented by short rentals - e.g. 4 hours - for less committed riders.

On the flat I used to maintain a steady 10-12mph*, according to whatever gps system I had available, but my average walking speed was 3mph. In the past I’ve kept up with roadies for a reasonable distance. But my point was about bikes being ridden in urban environments, and I’ve had kids on mountain bikes tearing past me when I’ve been sat outside a cafe, on the footpath, and I’d estimate they’re doing easily 10mph, if not more. Never got a nice, sturdy stick handy when you need one…

*When I used to ride down to Bath to pick up the K&A Canal, I’d do it in an hour, or thereabouts, and Bath is 13miles, the first 6miles is flatish, downhill to Batheaston then flatish into Bath.

Maybe for short distance but certainly not for long. If you look at any roadie club and look at their club ride requirements 20mph average generally puts you into the serious bunch and thats with drafting etc.

Yep average Joe Public pootling is not doing 20+ dressed in his daily wear 🙂

The issue I have is that unsurprisingly riding bikes at higher speeds requires more skillz.

The crazy stuff I have seen with older unskilled newbie bikers is the obsession of how fast they can go on an ebike - until they fall off on anything that requires riding skills.

That are usually acquired as you get fitter and faster through riding more.

Yep average Joe Public pootling is not doing 20+ dressed in his daily wear ?

According to the comments on the local FB pages, every cyclist is a contender for the World Track Champs / Tour de France at the speed they're going!

Schrödinger's Cyclist. Simultaneously going so slowly that they're holding up all the traffic for miles around but also hurtling recklessly at well above the speed limit!

There was no section for positive ideas to be pitched which was a missed opportunity. I think the likes of Just Eat, Deliveroo etc. are of a size where they could offer schemes where riders could lease e-mopeds from them including insurance etc. with GPS tracking. This could be complimented by short rentals – e.g. 4 hours – for less committed riders.

I’d be surprised if they want to haemorrhage more money 🙂

Just Eat Takeaway reported a €1.8 billion loss in 2023, an improvement on the €5.7 billion loss it reported the previous year.

Think Chiles will get the sack for over 200 complaints?

BBC.CO.UK "https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/sites/default/files/2025-01/30+December+2024+-+12+January+2025.pdf"

At least called into the DG's office for a dressing down loLZ

He was on the Ellis & John podcasty thing and seemed much more balanced then descriptions of the original suggest - perhaps he'd already had the chat by then

Not sure the focus should be on Chiles, it's the whole culture of lazy, one-sided click bait journalism that goes wider than the BBC even.

We criticise the BBC for ridiculous efforts to provide "balance" and yet this kind of drivel comes out practically unchecked.

From the BBC:

Our response
This programme explored the growing use of e-bikes on Britain’s roads and whether towns and cities have adapted sufficiently. Throughout the programme, contributors outlined both positive and negative aspects of e-bikes. We showed that e-bikes (in their various forms) are beneficial for the environment, convenient for users and often fun to ride.

We felt it was important to look at illegal e-bikes in the episode due to a growing concern from councils, police forces and citizens about "e-bikes" of every form, not only those known as Electrically Assisted Peddle Cycles (EAPCs). Some viewers thought we conflated different types of e-bikes, modified bikes, e-mopeds, and e-motorcycles, by using the terms “e-bike” or “illegal e-bike” throughout the film. Our commentary made clear that there are various forms of e-bike which are available to buy across the UK – including with a tax break on the cycle-to-work scheme.

To the public and to all intents and purposes, e-bikes and those bikes which do not conform to EAPC regulations are indistinguishable: two-wheeled vehicles with an electric battery-powered motor and having the same or similar physical appearance to a bicycle.  The former is governed by restrictions which are dealt with in the programme.

The term e-bike is used for a wide range of products, not all adhering to UK law. The government states: "There are many products known as ‘e-bikes’ or ‘e-cycles’ available on the market. However, not all of these are classified as EAPCs." Moreover, the police use the term "e-bike" to describe both legal e-bikes and illegal e-bikes. Forces across the UK rarely use the descriptor "e-moped" or "e-motorcycle" but instead prefer to use the term "illegal e-bike" when discussing non-EAPC regulation e-bikes. In order to accurately reflect the information given to us by these forces, we felt it was appropriate to take a similar approach, and felt it was justified to use a range of footage of different road legal e-bikes and illegal e-bikes throughout the film.

Concerning the law about the power of an e-bike motor, the government guidelines state that EAPCs "must have a maximum power output of 250 watts” and bikes should be labelled as such. This means that the continuous rated power should be no more than 250 watts. While there are circumstances when an e-bike’s power output might briefly exceed the 250 watt rate in a surge, that’s not what the law is designed to stop. Therefore we feel the commentary in the programme was accurate.

This is also the case regarding the throttles on e-bikes, where we stated that the "motor should only work while you’re pedalling, not by pressing a button.”  The UK law allows for "walk assistance" for up to 6 km/h but it is possible to get an e-bike reclassified via the DVSA as an e-moped and then use a throttle when not pedalling. This presents difficulty for police and councils who have to work out which e-bikes have been reclassified as e-mopeds.

Some viewers felt the programme was too negative about e-bikes. However we believe it was fair and impartial and from the outset was clearly not an attack on the e-bike industry but an examination of how the huge rise in their use has impacted our towns and cities. The programme featured a range of views, many of them positive about e-bikes. For example, a Londoner talking about how he loved to use them to get around the city; Sushila Dhall referred to their positive impact on the environment; and Dr Alex Nurse explained their convenience. Adrian Chiles as the reporter was open-minded about e-bikes and showed viewers how easily you can use an e-bike as he rode across London. He later tried some other types of e-bikes and found it a positive experience. He was curious about their impact on his home city of Birmingham, but ultimately concluded in the programme that e-bikes are a “good thing” and he can “see their value.”

Even the beeb response is poorly worded. It doesn't clarify anything clearly and it's not really a problem to identify an electric moped as it will comply with current traffic regulations regarding mopeds so will be plated , registered to owner and insured as such

Poorly worded is an understatement! Fact that they had it composed by someone who can't even spell "pedal" shows how seriously they took the complaints.

Chiles "open-minded", is just simply a lie.

Well done BBC, have a medal for meddling by peddling piddle about pedals

The UK law allows for “walk assistance” for up to 6 km/h but it is possible to get an e-bike reclassified via the DVSA as an e-moped and then use a throttle when not pedalling. This presents difficulty for police and councils who have to work out which e-bikes have been reclassified as e-mopeds.

I dont get this argument. The point of the DVSA classification is to allow the e-moped to be registered as a vehicle.

So the quick check is does it have a number plate and I think vin number.

The link I posted a while back, about the Bicycle Association's formal complaint to the BBC has an update (as of 14/01/25); they've posted up the response that they have had from the Beeb.

https://bicycleassociation.org.uk/news/press-release/60/60-BA-complains-to-BBC-about-Panorama-e-bike-misrepresentation

We do not believe that Adrian’s comment about the absence of clear and enforceable rules was not justified. There is widespread confusion about e-bikes. As we have already outlined in this email, there are a range of terms used to describe e-bikes and those bikes that do not conform to EAPC regulations. The bike industry uses some very specific terms but police and councils use “e-bikes” or “illegal e-bike” to refer to a range of two wheeled, battery-powered vehicles.

So rather than helpfully clarifying the definition of e-bikes we will add to the confusion by putting out a programme which continues to confuse the terms.