[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

whatnobeer - Member
We're all for self determination, Shetland can go for it if the people there want it.

Not without an agreed legal referendum they can't.

ninfan - Member

So, your position is that there should be no right to autonomy? - ie. you can only become independent if the 'parent authorities' allow you to secede?

Yes,its called the Baroness Jay defence. 8)

Shetland (and attitudes towards the Isles) is just one of the many elephants crowding the room. All very telling!

*******
Now here was me, thinking that this was specifically a vote for [b]independence[/b] not devolution!

teamhurtmore - Member
Shetland (and attitudes towards the Isles) is just one of the many elephants crowding the room. All very telling!

There is no right to self determination in a peaceful country.

where are the marines?

unless we gave it to you very recently to annoy the argies

Should the Lerwick Declaration be considered in the same light at the Edinburgh version?

More trumpets from the elephants!! 😀

But one side does have more facts, the status quo is real (are real ? I did Greek at Uni). The other side has more predictions, assumptions and suppositions. Some of them may be realistic. Some may not...

[quote=whatnobeer ]So far though the only people who seem to mention it are shit stirrers

Moi?
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hels - Member

But one side does have more facts, the status quo is real

Thing is though, the status quo isn't a fact- post-No vote, there's no guarantee that things will remain the same. We might see cuts in Barnett funding, changes in national policy, exit from europe, more recall of power to Westminster, all that jazz. It's a vote for the status quo politically, is all.

teamhurtmore - Member

Shetland (and attitudes towards the Isles) is just one of the many elephants crowding the room. All very telling!

It's kind of like an elephant in the room that nobody talks about, except for 2 minor differences. 1) It's been talked about a lot and 2) There isn't really an elephant there. Inconveniently, Shetland refuses to want to be independent.

It's a nice metaphor though... Someone said, "Is there an elephant in the room", everyone else had a look and found that no, there's not. But there's still some people who want to believe. And if you're on Project Elephant, the fact that nobody else is talking about elephants is probably Very Telling.

hels - Member
the status quo is real

Thing is though, the status quo isn't a fact- post-No vote, there's no guarantee that things will remain the same. We might see cuts in Barnett funding, changes in national policy, exit from europe, more recall of power to Westminster, all that jazz. It's a vote for the status quo politically, is all.

AS which in my opinion is what he really wants

NW - a quick google reveals:

Tavish Scott, the MSP for Shetland and former Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, told party activists on Saturday that the constitutional debate was the islands' chance to fight for their own "home rule", and a case study for the Lib Dems' localism agenda before the next general election.

Scott, who first raised this argument in a paper last year, fears that whichever side wins the independence referendum, more powers will be centralised by the Scottish government in Edinburgh, 300 miles south of the islands' main town, Lerwick.

Political leaders in the islands worry that their separate local authorities could be abolished after the 2014 referendum, either combined into a joint islands council or merged into a new super authority for the Highlands and Islands as the next government tries to rationalise Scotland's diverse group of 32 local councils.

Scott said there had been a "remorseless pattern of centralisation" under Salmond's Scottish National party government.

"For me, this is about home rule; our islands being able to assert their natural and local identity, their distinctiveness, and get the powers and responsibilities they need to make the best of the modern world," Scott told the Guardian.

There isn't really an elephant there. Inconveniently, Shetland refuses to want to be independent.

So given there is no elephant, I guess the following is talking about a mirage

A petition currently before the Scottish Parliament is seeking referendums to be held on all three islands exactly a week after the rest of the nation votes on the future of the union with Westminster.

In the event it should get the go-ahead, the 70,000 inhabitants will be given the choice of either staying in Scotland or seeking independence of their own. A third question following a successful yes vote will offer the possibility of staying within the UK while seceding from control of Holyrood.

In this case I guess it's just a white elephant then???

Yesterday, Shetland’s MSP Tavish Scott used a speech at the Lib Dem conference in Dundee to say it was “time to seize the opportunity of Island home rule”, proclaiming: “It’s not your oil Alex, it’s wirs.”

Hmm, where have I heard stuff like that before?

A petition currently before the Scottish Parliament is seeking referendums to be held on all three islands exactly a week after the rest of the nation votes on the future of the union with Westminster.

In the event it should get the go-ahead, the 70,000 inhabitants will be given the choice of either staying in Scotland or seeking independence of their own. A third question following a successful yes vote will offer the possibility of staying within the UK while seceding from control of Holyrood.

Yup, and it got about about 1200 signatures, over 200 of which came from outside the UK. A high impact petition? What the council up there want to avoid is being all lumped together into an aggregated authority, which is fair enough, I'm not convinced there's a real desire to leave Scotland or to stay in UK anymore than there is anywhere else in Scotland.

I'm not convinced there's a real desire to leave Scotland

I could say the same about Scottish peoples' desire for independence.

“The SNP is holding a gun to the islanders’ heads and saying 'I will not do anything for you unless you vote yes'. It is like the proverbial English colonial governor telling the natives what to do. People in the islands are very independent minded and they do not like being treated like this,” he said.

Isn't this exactly what the Yes campaign and supporters accuse the British government of?

You could say the same about Scottish peoples' desire for independence.

I did say that, although it was maybe easy to misread.

The SNP is holding a gun to the islanders’ heads and saying 'I will not do anything for you unless you vote yes'. It is like the proverbial English colonial governor telling the natives what to do. People in the islands are very independent minded and they do not like being treated like this,” he said.

Are they doing that? As this thread shows we trust anything that a politicians says. The SNP has promised an enquiry to look at the giving the islands more power. I didn't see anything in that statement that hinged on a yes vote...

But WNB, this whole thing is based on principle isn't it?????

But WNB, this whole thing is based on principle isn't it?????

What are you talking about? Why so many question marks? I've already said if there's a real appetite for it then they should ask for a legally binding referendum and then be given one.

Edit: I'll say now before I get accused of no true Scotsman fallacy, I only qualify with 'real apatite' so that we don't end up wasting a load of time and money on something which is doom to failure.

I assume the final line was not meant to be ironic?

Nope. The SNP had it in their Manifesto and have a mandate for it. The vote will be close either way I suspect so although [b]you[/b] might think of it as a waste of time and money there's a lot of people who feel differently.

teamhurtmore - Member

In this case I guess it's just a white elephant then???

Wait, earlier you said it was an elephant in the room that nobody talked about. But now you're posting links showing people talking about it. Have you decided to cut out the middleman and argue with yourself? 😆

Not coincidentally, while disagreeing with your own posts you've ended up proving my point, by showing how little support there is. Cheers! That petition's optimistically hoping to net as much as 10% support, but has currently made it to the dizzying heights of just over 2%... Well, as long as you count votes from people who don't actually live there.

where have I heard stuff like that before?

I could say the same about Scottish peoples' desire for independence.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/top-economist-deal-on-the-pound-for-iscotland-is-still-possible.1399474745

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-currency-deal-intractable-1-3401699

Westminster politicians and the currency - no no thtat of course not that is fact. Will it be those who point out that international law says it is theirs[ Scotlands]? A point so unambiguous no one rational denies it? Why does this debate make everyone so partisan?

I'm not denying most of the oil is Scotland's - but I think 'you're taking our oil and we want it for ourselves' is a pathetic argument in favour of nationalism, and I've seen normally sensible people on here using it as well as the Yes campaign.

Everyone has the right to be wrong and to compare chalk with cheese

Have you not seen the Stewart Lee but where he points out that chalk and cheese aren't actually that dissimilar at all? 🙂

Is there any decent data on how many support Shetland independence? Feel free to quote it if so - dismissing it out of hand seems a bit poor. I'm only going by what their elected MSP is saying, I assumed he represents his constituents.

BTW I'd like to retract my earlier statement of agreeing with THM as he's becoming incredibly ridiculous on this thread. 🙂

Of course Shetland should have a ref,but let's move the boundary of where their waters start before they do. Ha ha! I am an evil genius, nobody else could ever come up with such a cunning dastardly plan to control their neighbours resources....Aw shite!

grum - Member

Is there any decent data on how many support Shetland independence?

I assume you mean shetland independence rather than scottish? If so, THM's petition should remove any doubt but if you're discounting that, just look at the absence where an independence movement would be- if there was a significant and strong desire for shetland independence, there would be more than a failing online petition.

NW's, I will keep the jokes a little simpler in future.

I'd like to retract my earlier statement of agreeing with THM as he's becoming incredibly ridiculous on this thread.

And i keep asking why do you need radical change?
I am failing to see why it needs to be radical

It was fun while it lasted Grum

Miss you already xxx

What's the fing point of perpetuating the current social inequality, educational attainment levels, lack if social mobility, job insecurity and the general shittiness of early 21 century "all in this together" austerity capitalism under a slightly different brand at huge expense, then?

I think you might have missed the point............it's about [b]"FREEDOM"[/b]

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konabunny - Member

What's the fing point of perpetuating the current social inequality, educational attainment levels, lack if social mobility, job insecurity and the general shittiness of early 21 century "all in this together" austerity capitalism under a slightly different brand at huge expense, then?

Mentioned this up the page but just getting off the sliding slope would be positive. Pushing back towards even the status quo of 10 years ago, more so. I don't think most people would consider that radical change.

(I would- but then I consider the ongoing changes to be radical change too, just very well packaged and stealthed.)

konabunny - Member
And i keep asking why do you need radical change?
I am failing to see why it needs to be radical

What's the fing point of perpetuating the current social inequality, educational attainment levels, lack if social mobility, job insecurity and the general shittiness of early 21 century "all in this together" austerity capitalism under a slightly different brand at huge expense, then?

Personally I think the act of independence is fairly radical in itself. Scotland will diverge from ruk politically because of it IMO. It certainly won't be the same. Might be slightly different, might be vastly different.

We won't find out that answer until 20 or 30 years down the line though.

And btw we were told devolution would be bad for us. That turned out to be balls, and it's only 15 years down the line. Having free education, free prescriptions, sensible land access laws and an NHS that isn't getting sold to the highest bidder strikes me as being a fairly radical divergence from the rUK norms....

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Oh we're back to Scotland is the last colony of the British Empire argument again. Why the hands round a lit candle btw ?

And btw we were told devolution would be bad for us.

No you weren't. Scots were told that devolution would be good, in fact it was offered decades ago but most Scots initially showed little interest in devolution.

[quote=seosamh77 ]consider that more half the existing parties are refusing to even consider independence and the are parties that will form that no one has heard of as yet, then it becomes slightly difficult to quantify how radical an IS will be (in the short term, as let's face it that's all you are asking here, a short termist question). All we have to go on is a SNP manifesto/wishlist.

If you're talking about the general political structure, who holds the power etc., then it's not at all difficult to quantify. I know you like to have your fairy tales, but it has been pointed out time and again that there is nothing radical proposed which will change things in the way you imagine might happen.

Well apart from that you'll be ruled from Holyrood rather than Westminster by a government "you choose", so you'll have the impression that you have more power.

Kona Bunny whilst I would like to see a socialist Utopia or even a Scandinavian fairer capitalistic model I really dont see why it needs to be radical or you can just dismiss it at pointless

Using the best analogy i can muster, what is the point in kids moving out when they will still have to do all the same things ? They can only leave if they choose to move to a Yurt or to subsistence farming or to something else radically different and anything else is not worth the cost or effort.

Oh we're back to Scotland is the last colony of the British Empire argument again. Why the hands round a lit candle btw ?

Dont be daft there are loads still left, a point you yourself surely accept.
Nonetheless this argument is still a straw man
The hands are round I assume because,given the angle of flame ,it might be a bit windy and to make it visually nicer.

Nonetheless this argument is still a straw man

Yeah, if you have a think about it you'll realise that's exactly my point.

If devolution is so bad:

1. Why do more people want that than full independence?
2. Why does the BoD argue essentially for a higher form of devolution and not independence at all?
3. Why is currency union such a hot topic? Because it is admission at the highest level that independence is not what you want and, by implication, need.

BT doesn't need to say anything. As always yS tells the story as it is, albeit indirectly.

But the absurdity of all of this - as pointed out many times here and indeed the central argument of george Galloway - is that in the case of a yes vote your end up with less independence not more. No representation at any level in the bodies that will sent the key instruments of policy - interest rates, tax, location of nukes, etc. Government will be even more impotent to tackle the challenges ahead. And people think that this is a good idea?

One safe bet, is that iS will face pretty much the same challenges and will tackle them in much the same way despite the fairy tales in the BoD. If anything the requirement for further austerity will be as high, if not higher (see how markets price Scottish risk in time) than before. In the end , you can't buck reality.

Be careful what you wish for. Fairy tales are not reality.

Aracer. The only evidence we have to go on is the performance of the Scottish parliament. The evidence there is pretty clear that it is different from Westminster.