[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

That must be it......no one's heard of Scotland.

And it's harder to get to.

Funny enough I thought Westminster was being used as a code for an ineffective and unfair system of government, leading us to elect administrations which have a significant problem with corruption and arequite divorced from the reality of life for many people throughout the UK, administrations which are really working hand in glove with and for a relatively small economic elite.

Ah, so interchangeable with Holyrood then.

Bencooper: if you don't know what the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is then JFGI and consider your claim that Scottish orange lodges aren't really Scottish!

Scotlands relatively pathetic history of immigration is certainly no cause for claiming the moral high ground.

Tut tut piemonster, tha's never really been to Yorkshire or tha'd not be getting t insults. Unless you wer brought up Wombwell. Mind even that dump looks attractive t most places outside Yorkshire.

Now you are making things up Ernie,I said you liked to throw in anti Scottish stereotypes every so often. Your claim that you didn't have to be anti English to be pro independence came yesterday? A couple of days after;

and all the saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages

BTW I believe that DO is the Deceitful One. Silly name calling appears to be is very fashionable on here

Tut tut piemonster, tha's never really been to Yorkshire or tha'd not be getting t insults. Unless you wer brought up Wombwell. Mind even that dump looks attractive t most places outside Yorkshire.

You can blame Sheffield for my attitude. Particularly Sharrow.

/fighting talk
Your beers rubbish too.
/end fighting talk

*insert appropriate smiley face here*

Na then Pie lad get the self over t Bradfield. A few pints o Farmers Blonde then we can do a bit of fisticuffs over the merits of Yorkshire beer. Scotland should be forced to be independent on the grounds that have Sweet Heart Stout. The south of Englandshire should ang it's head in shame for the gnats piss they serve.

A free Yorkshire would have free beer (brewed int county) on all holidays, whoevers holiday it is.

Now you are making things up Ernie,I said you liked to throw in anti Scottish stereotypes every so often. Your claim that you didn't have to be anti English to be pro independence came yesterday? A couple of days after;

"and all the saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages"

That's hardly stereotyping the Scots ffs !

The saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages, number somewhere in the region of half a dozen, if that. So it is perfectly obvious that they don't represent the majority of Scots on STW let alone Scots in Scotland, if they even live in Scotland.

I've got a Scottish mate that I ride with on a weekly basis when he's home from his oil rig, as he is at the moment in fact, and it's hard to imagine a less saltire-waving mel gibson wannabe. I have no reason to believe that he is untypical, and judging from my experience he isn't - far from it.

which was apparently a joke ( even although nobody else got it)

Who said it was a joke ? I certainly didn't. And I wouldn't expect saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes, on whose behalf you presumably speak, to find if funny.

Is that the best evidence you could come up with for my "anti-Scottish" sentiments ? How disappointing for you.

🙂

Edit, can't be bothered.

Ditto since you've edited.

Both your mothers.

ernie_lynch - Member
...The saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages, number somewhere in the region of half a dozen,..

[img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gi f" target="_blank">http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gif [/img][img] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-flag006.gi f"/> [/img]

The saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes who have been so vociferous in their cry for freedoom over almost four thousand posts and more than a hundred pages, number somewhere in the region of half a dozen, if that. So it is perfectly obvious that they don't represent the majority of Scots on STW let alone Scots in Scotland, if they even live in Scotland.

There's a few of us living in Scotland who've contributed a lot to this thread and (apart from Ben ;P ) I wouldn't call any of us "saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes", and tbh find the accusation a little offensive. But that was your intent, so well done.

The thread that asked can you vote and which way you will you vote showed the Yes side winning, though not by much. So I'd guess that the lack of activity in this thread from the other forumites is more to do with the fact that it's nearly 120 pages long and is still going around in circles.

My prediction of a Putin like style of leadership but not policy may have been ridiculed at the time, however I can see the admiration our potential first prime minister has for the man will result in some of Putin's style rubbing off.

Give over man its beyond project fear and into fruit loopery though they were most unwise comments by AS- still not his first as I am sure THM can attest

You obviously haven't been following the thread in great detail whatnobeer as if you had you would understand that the saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes comment was aimed at those who support a separate Scotland being a full NATO member and yet refuse to explain the desirability of NATO membership (the issue being discussed was nuclear weapons).

My question was a perfectly fair question specially in light of the fact that for 30 years it was official SNP policy for an independent Scotland not to be in NATO. So what's happened in the last 30 years that caused the SNP to change its policy towards NATO so dramatically ?

As far as I can see not much apart from the fact that NATO member states have in recent decades been involved in wars and military engagements in a way that previously they never had been. And I can see the possible appeal this might have to saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes.

The good news is that you were only "a little" offended by my little dig 🙂

And it's apparently the only example of my "anti-Scottish" sentiments.

Jebus, I thought this thread was ridiculous 20 pages ago, but youse have taken it to a new level! 😆 Are youse not boring yourselves?

There's almost another 6 months to go seosam. I expect the debate to start getting a little heated as we approach the date of the referendum 🙂

ernie_lynch - Member
...So what's happened in the last 30 years that caused the SNP to change its policy towards NATO so dramatically ?...

Maybe they do something radical - like listen to what their supporters are saying?

Another complete avoidance of answering the question !

You can't think of a good reason for an independent Scotland being a full NATO member, can you ?

Apart to regain "Scotland's national pride!" of course 🙂

I think you mean an answer you dont like - they changed their position because their supporters did just like Labour wont buy back council houses or change Union reform despite opposing it 30 years ago.

Good reasons - there are loads remember Robertson said the western world as we know it would collapse without them

they are doing it for the West as they are givers

I assume that was aimed at me,since you can't help yourself;I accused you of trying to stereotype the yes voters on this thread with that remark that others have also pointed out was crass, I stand by that.

I think you mean an answer you dont like

It doesn't answer the question 'why is it desirable to a NATO member' to say because that's what we want. It's clearly avoiding answering the question. As well you know.

Its not a great answer but it is an answer
Its not quite avoiding it either but it is not a complete either so I can see your point
they have changed their mind as they wish to win votes and this is what the folk who vote for them want
Its not exactly an unheard of approach to being a political party that wants to get power.

Anyway I shall leave it to someone who may know or care

ernie_lynch - Member
There's almost another 6 months to go seosam. I expect the debate to start getting a little heated as we approach the date of the referendum

I'll ask a question then that I've been wondering about, maybe give youse something different to bicker over!

Considering that the polls are fairly close(even if we say it's a 10 point gap). How much do you expect apathy to affect the polls on polling day? Will the fact that the Yes camp have a motivated and fairly active and enthusiastic support skew the actual vote(in relation to the polls) when you consider that we have a fairly lethargic no camp, with virtually zero grass roots campaigning?

Do pollsters consider this dynamic? Or are the No camp just keeping their powder dry until polling day?

ernie_lynch - Member
You can't think of a good reason for an independent Scotland being a full NATO member, can you ?

To stop big nasty Putin from invading us!

ernie_lynch - Member
There's almost another 6 months to go seosam. I expect the debate to start getting a little heated as we approach the date of the referendum

Indeed. Of course it would be much more helpful if rUK simply stood up and made a clear statement of what the negotiable and non-negotiable elements are. Of course, the "cold-shower" of reality would be greated with the usual diatribe of the the three Bs north of the border ( 😉 ), so it is unlikely to happen.

Given, AS's high level of BS though and blatant (and justified) attempts at maximising self-interest (take as you will) I would like rUk politicians to be very clear in defending the interests of the rUK. For too long they have assumed that a no vote is in the bag. It isn't and they also need to respond accordingly.

A yes vote had negative implications for the rUK (unless you are Tories) and this needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

Or are the No camp just keeping their powder dry until polling day?

I hope so, but am not confident!

I would like rUk politicians to be very clear in defending the interests of the rUK.

A yes vote had negative implications for the rUK (unless you are Tories) and this needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

As for negotiations ,IMHO, you can either say no pre negotiation or you can pre negotiate. To just say what you wont do whilst saying you wont negotiate is not that credible a position - having ones cake and eating it, easily portrayed as bullying and it is also unlikely to be believed. It would not be helpful politically IMHO

Granted the debate would be easier if we actually knew what the reality was we were discussing

You obviously haven't been following the thread in great detail whatnobeer as if you had you would understand that the saltire-waving mel gibson wannabes comment was aimed at those who support a separate Scotland being a full NATO member and yet refuse to explain the desirability of NATO membership (the issue being discussed was nuclear weapons).

Nah, I read all that and pretty much ignored it. I couldn't really care less at this moment in time if Scotland is in NATO or not. The SNP party members voted to change their stance on NATO membership, so the obviously think that it's worth while. I'm pretty ambivalent on it all, likewise the subs in Faslane. It's the cost I object to, not the nukes themselves. But hey, I'm pro nuclear power which puts me in a minority in this country.

whatnobeer - Member
It's the cost I object to, not the nukes themselves.

I have entered into discussions with friends on this subject. Learnt that lesson ! It is like trying to argue people out of religious faith using facts and logic, in the end they don't believe what they believe because of facts and logic but hopes and dreams.

(and weird utopian ideas about Scandinavia and using another countrys currency)

And a few people I know see Yes as a way of never having Tories, or even worse UKIP, in charge of Scotland again. I have to say I understand and sign-up to the sentiment, but am unconvinced by the logic that one will automatically follow the other.

Interesting times...

hels - Member
UKIP

Interesting times...

The whole UKIP explosion is definitely not helping the no camp.

[quote=Junkyard ]they are doing it for the West as they are givers

With Sir BS's vision of iS the rUK is definitely the receiver.

[quote=hels ]And a few people I know see Yes as a way of never having Tories, or even worse UKIP, in charge of Scotland again. I have to say I understand and sign-up to the sentiment, but am unconvinced by the logic that one will automatically follow the other.

Well they're probably correct in a strict sense, but as ernie keeps pointing out there's nothing in the vision which departs from standard Western democracy enough to prevent the privileged and big business having effective control. As everybody agrees, nor are the people of Scotland significantly different enough from the people of the UK not to vote for a party which will enable that. It might not be called the Tory party, but that only really matters to those who care about the style rather than the substance (it seems an awful lot of Yes supporters are in that camp).

aracer - Member
Junkyard » they are doing it for the West as they are givers
With Sir BS's vision of iS the rUK is definitely the receiver.

hels » And a few people I know see Yes as a way of never having Tories, or even worse UKIP, in charge of Scotland again. I have to say I understand and sign-up to the sentiment, but am unconvinced by the logic that one will automatically follow the other.
Well they're probably correct in a strict sense, but as ernie keeps pointing out there's nothing in the vision which departs from standard Western democracy enough to prevent the privileged and big business having effective control. As everybody agrees, nor are the people of Scotland significantly different enough from the people of the UK not to vote for a party which will enable that. It might not be called the Tory party, but that only really matters to those who care about the style rather than the substance (it seems an awful lot of Yes supporters are in that camp).

tories exist in scotland, they have bottomed out at around 15% of the vote at the moment, the only way is up for them.

Personally I see a resurgent tory party in scotland post independence. Dunno if they'll ever make it back to a majortiy, but coalition government is certainly possible.

But that particular argument isn't really about there never being a tory party(despite the populism we have at the moment for claiming that), it's about there never being a party in power that we haven't voted for.

Independence for Shetland

I have entered into discussions with friends on this subject. Learnt that lesson ! It is like trying to argue people out of religious faith using facts and logic, in the end they don't believe what they believe because of facts and logic but hopes and dreams.

For sure , on both sides, the decision is nothing but an emotive one and the facts dont matter

but as ernie keeps pointing out there's nothing in the vision which departs from standard Western democracy enough to prevent the privileged and big business having effective control. As everybody ag

And i keep asking why do you need radical change?

Separating Scotland from the rest of the UK is a fairly radical proposition. If you feel there is no need for radical change in Scotland then voting No would be logical.

If however you feel that there is a need for radical change in Scotland then offer something radical beyond a meaningless declaration of false independence of which the negatives will outweigh the positives.

So we find out the National Animal of Scotland is a [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27294419 ]mythical beast[/url]
Which is, perhaps, why logic and economic sobriety have no place in this discussion.

aracer - Member
Independence for Shetland

They would need to do what scotland have done, and agree a legal referendum with the relevant authority

Otherwise that statement means nothing(see the venetian referedum for further information.)

Them thieving Scotlanders, Everyone knows Saltaire is in Yorkshire! How did they get over the border and especially through the Pennines with anyone noticing?

Separating Scotland from the rest of the UK is a fairly radical proposition.

Whatever you say it is possible to want to leave the union and not want a radical overall of your entire constitution
Its devolution not revolution

They would need to do what scotland have done, and agree a legal referendum with the relevant authority

So, your position is that there should be no right to autonomy? - ie. you can only become independent if the 'parent authorities' [b]allow[/b] you to secede?

We're all for self determination, Shetland can go for it if the people there want it. So far though the only people who seem to mention it are shit stirrers, as far as I can see there's no real appetite for it at the moment. If there is the future they should ask to hold a referendum and they should be given the right to have one. Everyone's happy.

ninfan - Member
They would need to do what scotland have done, and agree a legal referendum with the relevant authority
So, your position is that there should be no right to autonomy? - ie. you can only become independent if the 'parent authorities' allow you to secede?

As I've mentioned before, this is why Scottish independence has no bearing on Italian or Spanish separatists.

The British government were daft enough to allow it(and with a yes/no option instead of 3 options). I just hope the people of Scotland take the chance.