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So you think that Scotland should still allow EU boats to fish Scottish waters even if we're kicked out of the EU?
Why on earth would we want to do that?
The article suggests he would attempt to bar access to Norwegian fisheries as well, blockading them.
Salmond didn't make any threats, that's just more of the same, an anti-Scottish media distorting what was actually said.
He just pointed out the bleeding obvious.
If we're not in the club, it can't expect any of our pie. After all, they wouldn't be sharing theirs with us.
The article suggests he would attempt to bar access to Norwegian fisheries as well, blockading them.
Yes, that is a bit daft.
It is funny how one sentence in a long speech got all the attention, though - the full speech is here:
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/Speeches-Briefings/Scotland-s-Place-in-Europe-bdf.aspx
Anyhow:
[i]Graham Avery, Honorary Director-General of the European Commission and Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre in Brussels, says that for both political and practical reasons an independent Scotland could not be asked be asked to leave the EU.
In written evidence to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee at Westminster, he states: "Scotland’s five million people, having been members of the EU for 40 years, have acquired rights as European citizens. For practical and political reasons they could not be asked to leave the EU and apply for readmission."
Mr Avery adds:
"If they [the Scottish people] wish to remain in the EU, they could hardly be asked to leave and then reapply for membership in the same way as the people of a non-member country such as Turkey. The point can be illustrated by considering another example: if a break-up of Belgium were agreed between Wallonia and Flanders, it is inconceivable that other EU members would require 11 million people to leave the EU and then reapply for membership."[/i]
We will not be continuing members of the EU,I think that it is pretty clear that rUK would keep the ticket...at least until they pull out 🙂
duckman - Member
We will not be continuing members of the EU,..
I suppose that depends on how international law views the split. Either as 2 sovereign nations dissolving a treaty, so you get 2 continuing entities, or as a territory peeling off in which case one is the continuing state. I don't know the answer to this, but there's been plenty of opinion published supporting the former in overseas publications.
But it doesn't really matter which it is, because Scotland will be in the EU and without fuss.
then the old meaning of the word does seem to be more accurate.
Well it would , literally[ see what i did there],if it was still the 6 th century and I would be gay [ see what I did there as well!]
I would rather go with what it meant now but I have at least learnt some info on the origins
FWIW anti-semitism is another one as it means anti - Jew. however the semites are the children of seth and also include the Arabs[ and others] but i would expect most folk to use it for what it means now rather than what semite actually/historically meant/means.
Words change but as I said the info was new to me.
I'm really enjoying being corrected by English people about what the correct definition of Scots words
I am Scottish if you mean me.
We will not be continuing members of the EU
I think that is where there is some interesting wriggle room
the country would not be but the people may well be depending on how much they wish to fudge it
I am sure that the fishermen of the NE coast would not be too upset if it took a while to hammer out EU membership. As you have said, there will be a lot horse trading in the event of a yes vote.
the country would not be but the people may well be depending on how much they wish to fudge it
It's not a fudge, it's complete nonsense. Only states are members of the European Union.
so no citizen of the member states is an EU citizen then because only states are in the EU??
That is nonsense
I think you mean the states sign the treaties of the EU that then confer rights on the citizens. as is the way in a representative democracy.
Clearly citizens of member states are EU citizens so "in" the EU. Its why we can exercise our right to live there for example.
I dont think its a great argument but I dont see how you can argue that Scottish citizens are not in the EU - check out the passport it even says it
Did someone say Scotland will be culturally weakened by a Yes vote?
Don't follow.
I'd have thought all those who consider Scotland to be subsidy junkies and anti-English would be supportive of a Yes vote seeing as you'd get rid of us yet the sentiment on here seems to be very aggressively against Yes. Lots of portrayal of Yes support as petty nationalism.
Petty nationalism exists everywhere but if you lived up here and were privy to the constant negativity and sanctimony which has been pushed down everyone's throat by the press and BBC Scotland then you'd perhaps understand why support for Yes is rising the closer we get to the vote.
Don't even get me started on Better Together. They are a disgrace.
As for arguing over who is more racist or what the true definition of Sassenach is - get a life.
I will vote Yes because I want a different system of governance. We are voting for Devo Max in all but name. Alex Salmond in my opinion has been very shrewd with his stance on independence. What he proposes is Devo Max. Westminster vetoed devo max because they are not interested in devolving any more powers to other regions of the UK. Cameron said in his speech at the Scottish Conservative conference "a No vote COULD mean more devolved powers for Scotland" Could mean? either it will or it won't and it's abundantly clear it won't.
One thing I am sure of is that New Labour are ****ED in Scotland regardless of what way the vote goes and that will be of some consolation if a No vote is returned.
Clearly citizens of member states are EU citizens so "in" the EU.
No.
Grantus, your one of these undecided voters aren't you.
Anyway, I think some folk underestimate the depth of the UKOCK campaigns support. The offices next door have pro union stuff on their Windows and cars. Just next to the Conservative MPS signs admittedly.
Was a 'No' to begin with (couple of years ago) - saw this as a Nationalist ego-trip
Then was a mibbes.
Now a definite Yes since I decided to pull my finger out my arse and look beyond what we are spoon-fed by the newspapers and tv news broadcasts and nothing will sway me against it. We already control so much of how our lives are run. Why is the sky going to fall down when we take 100%* control of our affairs?
*as much as any country can have 100% control of it's own affairs in this day and age.
The UK seems to be moving more and more to the right. It feels to me like it is mirroring the US - where those just a rung or two up from the bottom of the heap seem to be the most vociferous in supporting those who would gladly keep them there.
A Yes vote is the only chance myself and my kids will have to move away from this.
It's funny I just read UK OK exactly as you wrote it Piemonster 😉
Two or three months ago I was sure it would be a No vote however Better Together and Westminster politicans of all parties are the gift that keeps on giving to the Yes campaign.
Every time they open their mouths you'd think they were deliberately trying to self-sabotage their own campaign.
As for sending Danny Alexander up here soon to educate us on the virtues of the union.........
The only reasoned Unionist voice i've heard so far is Charles Kennedy - and he is an example of what Westminster does to decent men
Pretty much agree 100% with you there.
Out of curiosity, has anybody encountered BT volunteers. So far I've only seen Yes folk out and about?
....if you lived up here and were privy to the constant negativity and sanctimony which has been pushed down everyone's throat by the press and BBC Scotland then you'd perhaps understand why support for Yes is rising the closer we get to the vote.
It doesn't really explain why despite less than 6 months to go there still isn't overwhelming support for the Yes vote.
Why aren't, I don't know - 80% of Scots, backing the Yes camp ? What are they waiting for ?
Because there will be a core of support for both sides which will never change their minds regardless of what anyone says so it is the undecideds and the previous non-voting group that are 'up for grabs'.
Also, there are swathes of the population that will accept whatever they are told in the news and the newspapers. Example being pro-Yes website Wings Over Scotland who paid for an advertisement on the Glasgow Underground. The wording of the ad went along the lines of 'there are ..nr of newspapers in Scotland - none back independence. Isn't it time you heard both sides of the story?"
Within 24-hours the ads were pulled by SPT.
Regardless, I doubt anything I write will change your opinion Ernie and i'd say anyone debating the matter on an internet forum will not, at this stage, have their minds changed so this is all a bit of a waste of our time, isn't it? 😉
so what I was trying to convey in the above (not very well) is that unless you are prepared to dig out facts and varying opinions i.e. moderate/maybes or resounding yeses - then the information you are fed on a daily basis is predominantly negative or portrays independence as a risk rather than an opportunity. I read Wings Over Scotland and Bella Caledonia and, whilst keeping in mind they are hardly impartial, i'm increasingly finding they over a much less hysterical perspective than any other mainstream source of information.
I now see what Salmond admires about Putin, they both like threatening European countries. He is a dictator in the making, threatening to block EU countries from Scottish waters should Scotland lose it's EU status. He is also still spouting on about a currency union with the UK, that hilariously the majority of Scots still think is on the table despite being told otherwise. Are people not embarrassed to have voted for the man?
I now see what Salmond admires about Putin, they both like threatening European countries. He is a dictator in the making,
Thank Christ there's no chance he'll get hold of nuclear weapons
No, hang on, erm....
Are people not embarrassed to have voted for the man?
Er... no
I read Wings Over Scotland and Bella Caledonia and, whilst keeping in mind they are hardly impartial, i'm increasingly finding they over a much less hysterical perspective than any other mainstream source of information.
GSOH required!
Regardless, I doubt anything I write will change your opinion Ernie and i'd say anyone debating the matter on an internet forum will not, at this stage, have their minds changed so this is all a bit of a waste of our time, isn't it?
You've been trying to change peoples mind ? I'm impressed !
Sadly I have never considered that in my power of persuasion was such that people might abandon their formerly held opinions and replace them with mine.
I simply express my point of view and don't expect anyone to agree with it unless they already did.
What's your success rate - I imagine it involves a lot of disappointment ? 😉
Are people not embarrassed to have voted for the man?
I voted for him because he said the SNP would have a referendum on independence. We're having the referendum. So no, not embarrassed at all - he's delivered 100% on the reason I voted for him.
^ +1
Yup,another vote on the promise of a referendum,just out of interest,did that nice man in the rUK parliament not promise you all a ref on something as well...how's that going? 😆
Clegg, as always, delivered massively on his pledge /promise/aspiration
Dont gloat you might get the same result 😛
Claggy, what's he been up to?
Posting Steve bell on the internet??
Trying to work out what "Steve Bell" is rhyming slang for...
Googles "Steve Bell slang"
.....an increasingly politicized sense of English identity.
What nonsense.
+ 1
"This increasingly politicized sense of English identity will be reflected in the massive turn out of voters for the Euro elections." As nobody ever said.
Regardless, I doubt anything I write will change your opinion Ernie and i'd say anyone debating the matter on an internet forum will not, at this stage, have their minds changed so this is all a bit of a waste of our time, isn't it?
I dunno, I used to be much more in favour of independence until I read some of the Yes arguments on here.
I read Wings Over Scotland and Bella Caledonia and, whilst keeping in mind they are hardly impartial, i'm increasingly finding they over a much less hysterical perspective than any other mainstream source of information.
GSOH required!
?? Or an interest in reading alternative points of view on what is a very important matter
Grum, what arguments have you read on here that have made you change your mind about it?
Ernie Lynch - it was a turn of phrase I suppose about people who are adamant at this stage that it is either a good or bad idea being unlikely to change their minds if they are going to the trouble to debate on a bike forum of all places.
However, I do hope undecided people can read opinions and balance up both sides and arrive at a Yes decision as that would mean there is more chance of the outcome I want. Is my opinion going to influence anyone? probably not and certainly not on here but I thought it might be of interest to people not living in Scotland as to the reasons why someone who does has gone from dismissing the idea of independence out of hand to being a strong advocate for it.
Well I started off highly sceptical of the benefits of Scotland going its own way, for both Scotland and the rest of the UK. I have always supported the continuation of the Union. I did however expect to hear some powerful and hard to refute arguments in favour and was prepared, if necessary, to reevaluate my opinion on the matter.
I am [i]genuinely[/i] surprised at the lack of such arguments, and not just here but in the wider media. The whole thing appears to me to be an extremely badly and ill-thought out proposition, which wouldn't be so serious if it wasn't for its permanent and long lasting consequences.
IMO, as I have repeatedly stated, it all appears to be hinged on hope, faith, and wishful thinking. In place of compelling arguments which clearly state the real and tangible benefits there appears to be an appeal to petty meaningless nationalism and macho posturing. Which I guess goes some way in explaining why the proposition appears to have significantly less appeal to women than to men.
scotland will basically be the same as it is now but electing a government of its choosing.. self determination is often a compelling argument.
I am not sure what other benefit you want tbh as I assume most of accept it wont be a whole lot different in scotland afterwards [ whether yes or no]except for politically in some areas say tuition fees, bedroom tax, nukes etc.
I suspect if a "compelling argument" was put forward you would call it fanciful and wishful thinking or them making false promises of the land of milk and honey.
basically you either want its destiny to be one of it own making or one largely determined by the massive partner in the Union who like the Tories [ and UKIP] more than they do.
I am not sure advocating self determination is macho posturing nor do I think you will find any argument compelling.
Given you cannot say if the UK will stay in the EU you could argue the no vote is equally based on hope, faith, and wishful thinking.
Its very interesting that many who dislike the EU union like this one
I am not sure what that says about anything but it is interesting.
It may also be true that those who support devolution of this union are more pro the EU one.
I am not sure we could describe either as fully consistent or compelling and I suspect we could describe either as emotive or macho posturing