[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

support for England in the various international arenas.

I don't really think an independent Scotland is going to be in a position to offer much support to the UK.

good neighbourly relations

Which, yes or no, will be at an all time low. Well done Alex.

Or are you seriously claiming that you have no idea what path an independent Scotland will follow ?

Mr Cooper has already stated that he doesn't care if independence F's up Scotland for decades, it's still worth it.

It seems that the Yes camp are appealing to people's emotions and ignoring boring stuff like "detail" which doesn't really stack up to scrutiny anyway.

It's certainly helps to explain why politically immature 16 year olds are being given a say, something which had puzzled me, they are much likely to be motivated by emotions than boring facts

Just to make it clear that independence is not all about the SNP

[img] [/img]

Something similar should appear from the LibDems soon.

And maybe even the independents in the Scottish Conservative party (Wealthy Nation) will follow suit.

Last time I checked, young voters are favouring "NO".

teamhurtmore - Member

Last time I checked, young voters are favouring "NO".

Pesky kids with all their "questions". 👿

😆

teamhurtmore - Member

Keynesian economics (to the extent that such a thing exists) is not illegal under EU law. The misunderstood version may well be. Hence the sloppy headlines beloved by newspaper and magazine editors.

I haven't seen any sloppy headlines about Keynesian economics and the EU, what paper do you read ?

I provided a link not to a newspaper headline but to an EU website. This EU website site makes it crystal clear that running a deficit is illegal.

It does allow some small tolerance but beyond that an automatic mechanism must kick in to reduce the deficit ie, austerity must kick in : (their bold)

Automatic correction mechanism

Countries must implement a correction mechanism - in other words, design measures to [b]reduce the budget deficit[/b]. These measures will be triggered automatically in the event of a significant deviation from the agreed benchmark figure for long-term sustainabililty.

http://www.eurozone.europa.eu/euro-area/topics/treaty-on-stability,-coordination-and-governance-%28tscg%29/

This is completely at odds with Keynes.

And to claim that because they allow a small tolerance this means that Keynesian economics isn't illegal under EU rules is the same as claiming that if you are allowed to go as fast as 33 mph in a 30 mph zone before being prosecuted this means there is no maximum speed limit.

It's certainly helps to explain why politically immature 16 year olds are being given a say, something which had puzzled me, they are much likely to be motivated by emotions than boring facts

[b]I think yu insult them to much and flatter the elctorate too much as well[/b].

I'm not insulting them at all. I expect a 16 year old to be politically immature, I certainly was, although I could hardly be described as being a 'late developer' when it came to politics.

And I'm very pleased to hear that the last time you checked young voters were favouring "no" THM, although I doubt that was the thinking behind the decision of the Scottish government to give them a vote, do you ?

Sorry Ernie but you are not correct. Have a watch of Lord Skidelsky here

http://video.ft.com/79132257001/Apr-12-Focus-on-the-economy-not-debt/Editors-Choice

Especially around 3:30 for why such arguments frame keynes in the wrong context and then at around 4:11-20 when he argues that keynes was an advocate of balanced budgets. Of course, Keynes' most respected biographer and I could both be wrong!!

I also agree with Skidelsky's early comments about K arguing that economics should be studied alongside other subjects such as politics and philosophy and that the currency obsession with maths makes you neither a better economist nor economics a better science (sic)..

And I'm very pleased to hear that the last time you checked young voters were favouring "no" THM, although I doubt that was the thinking behind the decision of the Scottish government to give them a vote, do you ?

I didn't believe that was their thinking no, in fact was quite scathing about their intentions. However, it's hard to know if they were aware of the outcome or not. If they were, then I would be eating my words.

I doubt that was the thinking behind the decision of the Scottish government to give them a vote, do you ?

IIRC they have campaigned for it to be lowered in general for all elections this, general and Scotland - its like they have a principle and will do it not just for political gain....imagine the horror.
I am surprised you and THM are not going overboard with your praise for the noble principled actions of Sir BS of eck 😛
EDIT: i posted this before i saw THM's post above
It seems reasonable to assume it was done on principle that 16 is old enough.

[quote=Junkyard ]Sir BS of eck

Well I certainly shan't be calling him boring old AS any more with that option available.

he argues that keynes was an advocate of balanced budgets.

Oh OK. On the previous page you were agreeing that Keynes strongly advocated running a government deficit "at the correct time", arguing that EU rules allow this, and now you're suggesting that Keynes was an advocate of balanced budgets. Yes we know that in a perfect world balanced budgets are ideal but that in a real world deficits are required during recessions. But I think you just want to argue the point backwards and forwards THM, so let's just leave it there shall we 🙂

[quote=gordimhor ]He is a very credible politician imo. As a senior part of the yes campaign he disagrees with the snp on a number of issues and surely puts an end to the ridiculous notion that scottish independence is wee ecks pet project

So he's proof of support for independence outside the SNP? Doesn't really add much to the currency debate though, does he?

Of course no matter how much people might claim that independence is about more than the SNP, and that we shouldn't just look at the SNP policies for the future path of Scotland in the event of a Yes vote - it will the SNP sitting at the negotiating table sorting out all these issues which nobody is allowed to know about in advance of the vote. So the policies you will get on how independence works are SNP policies.

[quote=ernie_lynch ]But I think you just want to argue the point backwards and forwards THM, so let's just leave there shall we

Which one of you is the pot, which the kettle? 😆

It will be the Scottish govt and there is an election before hand. I also think it is reasonable to assume they will use a bi partisan approach [ representatives from many parties] - if not just so he can also lay the blame at others doors if the negotiation dont go as well as planned.

TBH i would be surprised if it was just them involved in such an important issue but , surprisingly, yet again we just dont know.

It seems reasonable to assume it was done on principle that 16 is old enough.

Not reasonable imo, for the reasons I gave. Most other countries in the world seem to agree.

EDIT : Useful contribution by you there aracer, it adds hugely to the debate about Scottish independence/currency union and is in keeping with the comment you made yesterday. You must be proud of your witty comments eh ?

In the meantime those bullying, nasty Europeans are throwing the pensions spanner in the works again, still whats the odd pension fund deficit between friends....

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/eb5a58ee-b370-11e3-bc21-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz2wuR8LJVU

They will be demanding that AS uses up-to-date oil figures next - oh, wait a minute, that's our (the UK) lot!

Yes we know that in a perfect world balanced budgets are ideal but that in a real world deficits are required during recessions.

My final word on Keynes (for the moment), in Keynes' world, this situation can't exist anyway, the point Skidelsky makes at about 6:00. Still, we probably don't know what we are talking about and you could be much more informed on the matter!

Not just an SNP thing, lowering the voting age.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/23/labour-voting-age-16-mayoral-elections ]Labour plan to lower voting age to 16[/url]

It is of course fine to reject the SNP's vision of an independent Scotland, but whose vision are you using instead ?

Or are you seriously claiming that you have no idea what path an independent Scotland will follow ?

Do you know what path the UK will follow over the next 10, 50 or 100 years? Of course I have no idea what path an independent Scotland will follow, but I think Scots are smart enough, sensible enough, and resourceful enough to find out for ourselves.

My vision is simple - I want my daughter to grow up in a country of hope, not fear.

Still, we probably don't know what we are talking about and you could be much more informed on the matter!

"We" ? 🙄

I suppose Paul Krugman doesn't know what he's talking about either eh ?

[b][i]In essence, Professor Krugman's essay made the classic Keynesian case in favor of the federal government spending more, taxing less, and accepting the resulting bigger deficit.[/i][/b]

[url= http://seekingalpha.com/article/316883-krugman-keynes-and-the-economy ]Krugman, Keynes, And The Economy[/url]

My vision is simple - I want my daughter to grow up in a country of hope, not fear.

Get this man the Nobel peace prize...or maybe a Miss World garland.

I thought there were no heroes anymore, but you've proved me wrong.

[quote=seosamh77 ]If prefered option A isn't available post independence, it stands to reason one of the others will be adopted, whether better or worse.

Thanks for that revelation - I'd assumed that given currency union isn't an option they'd choose to have no currency at all.

The question is which of the options is plan B - something Sir BS of eck hasn't answered, whatever you might claim.

However I realised that you can apply game theory to this. Clearly plan A is a currency union, Fact. Therefore the primary objective of the game must be to get a currency union. Let's look at the possible options for plan B and the strategy given each of them. I think we can ignore joining the Euro for now, as it's not going to happen immediately (and if it did it would come under the same strategy as one of the other options anyway). Which leaves two possibilities (I'm also ignoring unlaterally adopting the Euro, unilaterally adopting the US dollar, or a Scottish currency linked to either of those). Either a completely independent Scottish currency, or a Scottish currency tied to the pound/adopting the pound without a currency union (both the latter options are identical economically).

Now if plan B was to have a completely independent Scottish currency, then the correct strategy under game theory would be to announce that - remembering that plan A is a currency union. To do so would force the hand of rUK, as clearly there would be a cost involved in not having a currency union. However if plan B is to adopt the pound without a currency union/have a Scottish currency tied to the pound, then the correct strategy is clearly to keep quiet and claim that there is no plan B, as there is actually no disadvantage to plan B as far as rUK is concerned so there is no incentive at all for them to agree to a currency union.

I leave determining what plan B actually is as an exercise for the reader...

{and I thought you were leaving it ernie 😉 , but at least quote Krugman rather than someone else showing his misunderstanding]

Wasnt A = €
B= £ currency union
C= independent use of £
D= err, we are working on it.....but in the meantime, we WILL use B so there, or perhaps C, or.......

My vision is simple - I want my daughter to grow up in a country of hope, not fear.

😕
The only fear is that being created by the minority that want to jump into the abyss of independence.
Fear is based on uncertainty, and you admit to being uncertain.
Strange logic Mr Cooper.

I thought you were leaving it ernie

Yeah your arrogant and patronizing comment "you could be much more informed on the matter!" managed to get a reaction. I had forgotten just how patronizing you can be.

Fear is based on uncertainty, and you admit to being uncertain.

Yet I am not fearful, I am hopeful.

Sometimes, certainty is worse than uncertainty. There's the certainty that all the Westminster political parties are pretty much identical. There's the certainty that they all want to spend £100bn on weapons of mass destruction instead of on helping people. There's the certainty that politics is making society more fearful - of immigrants, of the poor, of young people. There's the certainty that my vote doesn't matter in this first-past-the-post system. There's the certainty that none of them really want to help people - can you imagine any modern political party creating the NHS instead of dismantling it?

I'm tired of being cynical about politics.

[Well, I know how you hate people making incorrect statements on here and were quite dogmatic ("This is completely at odds with Keynes"). Anyway, lets leave it now, shall we since this is more about Scotland than JMK and anyone can make their own mind up who is correct, especially from the FT link (3:30, 4:11 and 6:00 mins) ! And he does know what he is talking about when it comes to Keynes, even if "we" dont.

Oh, and sbob - still waiting for links to these forums where there's a consensus I'm a mentalist 😀

Really?
I thought you didn't "care what random people on unnamed Internet forums think about me".

I'm not going to link to the two I mentioned, but you were also mentioned on Pistonheads if you really do now fancy a look.

Heck, if we have a good relationship after independence, we may even cheer for the England cricket team (except when they're playing Australia).

Aracer. You are asking Salmond to campaign for the 2015/6 election there. Why should salmond tbh the currency question isn't for him to tell us its for us to tell which ever government forms the first Parliament.

The options are there salmond doesn't have a mandate to tie us into any currency. He has a mandate to hold a referendum.

Or are we getting told that the day after a yes vote the pound no longer becomes valid in scotland? 😆

The options are there salmond doesn't have a mandate to tie us into any currency. He has a mandate to hold a referendum.

If that was all, then would could have saved a lot of time, money, trees and hot air in the process*. Of course, the (ie AS's and yS,s) mandate stretches beyond simply holding a referendum. There has to be (still to be determined) cause in the first place otherwise it becomes little more than a vanity project.

*although kids will have appreciated the new fairy tales to read either way

Blimey, those pistonheads folk leave us miles behind on this topic. Old "edinburger" seems a laugh though!! Impressive C&P and quoting skills in display!!

konabunny - Member
...Shouldn't you be supporting the Scottish national cricket team?

Ye gods! Do we have one?

I thought all real men in Scotland played Shinty, not those softy southern sports. I don't think I've ever seen a cricket racquet in a Scottish sports store.

Cricket as a student in Scotland was a somewhat dispiriting affair, especially if you are a fast bowler. Much better to stick to the royal and ancient game IMO!

epicyclo - Member

Ye gods! Do we have one?

My cousin used to play for the national team. Apparently every single time he told people that, for his entire career, they said essentially "Ye gods! Do we have one?". Must be very fulfilling that.

Good to see that the Yes vote know a lot about their own country 😯

So to help you out

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/teams/scotland/fixtures ]Scottish Cricket Fixture list[/url]

We have a national kabaddi team too, I don't think either is a key referendum consideration tbh.

dragon - Member
Good to see that the Yes vote know a lot about their own country
So to help you out
Scottish Cricket Fixture list

Very kind of you to provide the info, but there's no way I'd waste good riding time going to watch cricket, or most ball sports for that matter.

Blood sports like shinty definitely though. 🙂

This one seems to have slipped under the radar (sorry if I've missed it), It hasn't been splashed all over 'wings' for some reason!

OK, the content is nothing that Barusso hasn't already said but I would have thought that a direct response to the Scottish government regarding EU entry would have been important information for the voters, you would think AS has something to hide.

OPEC head not keen on an independent Scotland either.

As you say Irelanst there's nothing new there, and I see the UK government has still not formally approached the EU commission for their position on the accession issue so the relevant information from the deciding body is still not available to voters.

“What we need is the human expression. On July 19 this year I’m hoping that 100,000 people will gather along that old, foreign, Roman wall - English, Welsh, Irish, Scots, holding hands, linking arms across that border,” he told MPs.

😀

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-split-blamed-on-romans-1-3352328

Another poll out today btw, article in the Scotsman. Both side traditional in the proclamations of momentum blah blah blah etc etc etc

I think the scotsman should be made to change it's name to be honest! 😆

Do you honestly think that the EU will issue any statement that would contradict those repeatedly made by the president, the vice president and its own defining treaties?

How can;

“When part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory.”

Be spun into the White papers version of events?