[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

North wind, thanks ,I think.
If I was Scots I'd want my own country. Fair play and all that but I can see Scotland being one of those people who buy a banger and then keep knocking on your door every time it won't start.

people keep repeating it and if you repeat things often enough they mysteriously become accepted facts.

😀 You are learning my friend!!!! 😉

Talking of friends.....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-25-years-of-economic-misery-1-3295969?WT.mc_id=Outbrain_text&obref=obinsite

So who was that guy in the video, who did he represent?
If he was French would it be more believable?

Dr Jo Eric Khushal Murkens

[url= http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/law/staff/jo-murkens.htm ]Prof from the LSE[/url]

So he says:
No automatic EU membership.
If Scotland join then they must take the Euro.
They also must sign up to Schengen, which means there will need to be Border Controls between Scotland and England.

But what would he know?

Dear Nicola, bless her, out threatening technical default again today. She does a great impression of someone who has no idea about how global financial markets work or of Scotlands on-going borrowing needs. And folk want people like her running an independent country!!!!!

Northwind - Member

What does that even mean? We seem to be on the same side but this almost made my head pop.

A lot of contributers in this thread make their distain for Scotland so obvious that the abusive husband comparison, albeit in poor taste,has it nailed. I really am curious as to why there is so much venom

There's no venom intended, any jokes or comments from my side are tongue in cheek. Take it how you want though? It's just a lot of people on here seem to slate anyone putting forward a reasoned argument of why independence is a bad idea as somehow 'having a dig at the poor Scots'. Interpret this as you will.

rebel12 - Member

But you can't afford independence - that's the whole point and there's no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The 'wish list' just doesn't stack up, simple as.

I guess this is exactly the sort of thing Grum doesn't want me to rise to as it's too obviously rubbish to even bother shooting down?

Why is it rubbish, because it doesn't fit with your view of things? Do you really believe all the bulls**t spouted in the white paper? If this is wrong please enlighten us all as to where the money will come from to fullfil all the promises on the wishlist. I'm open ears 🙂

She does a great impression of someone who has no idea about how global financial markets work

I think there is little venom towards Scotland or Scots but a lot (correctly IMO) directed towards wee eck's BS (and Sturgeon's). Strip them away and have a reasonable discussion about devolving more power to Holyrood and it would be a flier IMO. Sadly, the wrong captain leading the wrong arguments resulting in the wrong conclusion. Scotland deserves much better than AS.

Rebel12 I don't know if you've read any of the other numerous threads on the subject of the referendum, but most of the Yes are posting opinion, or facts without any venom or ridicule or anything else unwanted. We all know that the white paper is an SNP manifesto rather than a defined and binding blue print. We all know that things cant and wont change over night and we also know that things being said now by both parties will change as soon as the vote happens.

As far as I can tell you've stormed in to this thread with a load of unsubstantiated, vitriol and venom. It does indeed come across as having a dig, intended or not.

I can't be arsed going through the whole debate that we've already had several times before again, but as I, and many other people have said, Scotland can afford to be independent, wont turn into a 3rd world country and will be able to afford the things in the white paper due to cuts, savings, taxes and policy that we will have control of.

Spending billions on nuclear weapons and fancy fighter jets while people need food banks - it's the kind of thing we used to complain about African dictators doing,

This and a hundred other posts like it. This is why many sensible people (i.e. not Braveheart clad extremists) want independence. So we don't p1ss away money on crap no-one wants or needs in this Century (not just military spending, but lots of examples of that ilk) but on improving the country and the society we live in.

Couple of sensible posts there

Scotland deserves much better than AS.

Perhaps. But a lot of Scots voted for him, and he's probably the most capable politician in the UK at the moment.

But that's okay - after independence we can vote him out if someone better comes along. That's the nice thing about independence - it'll be up to us.

There's no venom intended, any jokes or comments from my side are tongue in cheek. Take it how you want though? It's just a lot of people on here seem to slate anyone putting forward a reasoned argument of why independence is a bad idea as somehow 'having a dig at the poor Scots'. Interpret this as you will.

Nice try, the Edinburgh defence as it is is known here. S'funny that this thread is in the minority in that it is started by a pro-Indy supporter. Normally we have crackers likes Zokes explaining why the rest of the UK should have a vote as well, threads expressing wonder that we might object to being referred to as Jocks,despite the OP living up here for 6 years...All to stir up a wee bit of animosity.I really don't know why you all care so much,especially if as both you and he claim, we do so well out of the union. Would you not be better cutting us lose and getting a couple of p of the base rate?

I think there is little venom towards Scotland or Scots but a lot (correctly IMO) directed towards wee eck's BS (and Sturgeon's).

I am not sure that the points coming from the UK govt are things that we should all respect

Strip them away and have a reasonable discussion about devolving more power to Holyrood and it would be a flier IMO.

Sadly, the wrong captain leading the wrong arguments resulting in the wrong conclusion. Scotland deserves much better than AS.

What shame you cannot respect the electoral wishes of the scottish people in terms of whom they elected and instead choose to snipe from england about their choice. Amusingly you snipe like this do whilst wanting a better debate LOLZ at the irony. Is it not clear that what they want and what you want are not the same thing hence why they have elected him again?

Ps some ace sniping there you have really helped move the debate along into the respectful and informed [ same applies to me to be fair]

I have never got the hatred for him tbh - he has almost achieved his political dream and he has been a leader of his nation with immense popularity. he has used the ballot box and he has achieved real tangible progress for his cause. He is clearly very capable and popular.

Duckman - why do we care? That should be very obvious, these decisions have far reaching consequences for people outside Scotland and as we have seen this month when AS and NS spout BS about financial markets and debt then rUK have to react - hence last month's statement that debt would be honoured. That is being responsible. Look how you feel when comments and decisions made outside Scotland affect you. The rUK are just the same.

From a selfish perspective, I may well be returning to Scotland to live and hence I would like to see the country's best interest served.

Ben clearly a lot of people voted for him. That is their prerogative. Equally more Scots are currently saying that they disagree with him on this issue. As you say, that's the beauty of Independence, it's up to them and the message so far is relatively clear. Your fellow countrymen are very canny - great place to be educated!!!!

bencooper - Member
he's probably the most capable politician in the UK at the moment.

So capable that he was outmanoeuvred on the correct question after all this time. I thought you were also able to vote him out under the current situation. Has Scotland become a totalitarian state and no one has noticed?!?!

Ah, we've reached the point in the thread where THM starts using multiple punctation marks, excellent!&%

...and like the quotes "repeated" (hint) above, good to see that you are joining me 😉

Funny comment in the FT debate today

Report Deveron | February 12 2:40pm | Permalink
@Derek Sturdy

You're making the mistake of many english observers and conflating "Scotland" with the "SNP". A large number of scots, possibly the majority, are actively hostile to the SNP and will not necessarily consider english politicians rebuking Salmond and Sturgeon as "bullying".

In the 2010 general election the SNP got 19% of the vote vs the scottish conservatives' 16%. You wouldnt necessarily know those percentages listening to our self-appointed tribunes, Salmond and Spurgeon.

You'll not see me rushing to defend Salmond or the SNP THM, but rather more relevant to this debate is the 45% won in the 2011 Scottish Parliament election. Whether you believe that's down to support for the SNP or voting against the Lib Dems for joining the Tories in 2010 or something else, it makes equating SNP votes with independence votes less than clear.

In the 2010 general election the SNP got 19% of the vote vs the scottish conservatives' 16%. You wouldnt necessarily know those percentages listening to our self-appointed tribunes, Salmond and Spurgeon.

Someone tried quoting that number on here a while back and was rightly told it wasn't really very relevant. You don't need me to tell you why.

They did very well in that election true. I am sure there were lots if reasons why. And tbc, I am not actually equating SNP votes with independence either. It's pretty clear as my previous post shows - there is a gap between votes cast for the SNP and polls re independence - so sorry, do not understand the point. Excuse me.

WNB, blame that on me copying too much of someone else's post on the FT today. Not my comments - hence the quote box.

So in the elections for the Uk parliament(?) they got 19% and the Tories got % 16?
How did the Tories fare in the Scottish elections?

Poorly. I refer you to my previous answer about someone else's post! Can't edit to remove confusion now.

So in the elections for the Uk parliament(?) they got 19% and the Tories got % 16?
How did the Tories fare in the Scottish elections?

Not quite. They got 19% of the Scottish votes in the 2010 election. Labour still got somethiing like 40%, from memory.

do not understand the point. Excuse me

It related to the 2nd para you quoted. I read you implied 19% wasn't a basis to speak for Scotland. No matter I dislike the speaker, 45% is.

 

Dear Scotland

Don't leave us this way
We can't survive, we can't stay alive
Without you love, oh Scotland
Don't leave us this way
We can't exist, I will surely miss
Your tender kiss
So don't leave us this way

aaaaaaaaaaaaaah Scotland!

ps take Jimmy Somerville with you

bye

I didn't imply or intend to imply anything, I added too much of someone else's comments in a quote box and that had caused unnecessary confusion. It's too late to delete the offending paragraph from the FT quote.

I don't think that any previous election results tell you that much about future voting patterns in an independent Scotland. However, I do think that the party with possibility for biggest % gains post independence would be the Tories, albeit in some new re-built form.

edit because of THM's edit!

http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-releases/comment-an-independtheyrehttp://would-better-off-using-the-pound-without
A different perspective- not sure I understand all the ins and outs though..
I'm not saying we shouldnt take on our share of the debt but if they're refusing a currency union what next? Refusing a share of the assets?

How did the Tories fare in the Scottish elections?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_election,_2011#Election_system.2C_seats.2C_and_regions

Scottish tories are better represented in holyrood than in westminster.

However, I do think that the party with possibility for biggest % gains

Wow someone has stirred up the Little Englanders

This is a good thing, when Scotland get independence they will be a 3rd world country inside of 5 years, we don't want them dragging Great Britain down with them!

But you can't afford independence - that's the whole point and there's no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The 'wish list' just doesn't stack up, simple as.

Absolutely no-one on either side of the argument is using "Scotland can't afford it" as an argument any more. Its too easily shot down with, you know, numbers and facts and stuff.

Here is the FT's recent take on it

[img] [/img]

All this is beside the point. Currency is not what independence is about its about self determination and about votes in Scotland counting in Scotland.

Well the facts are, that if Scotland keeps the pound (if the UK let them) then the UK will still be pulling most of the strings in Scotland (much like Germany is with Greece at the moment).

You really have to wonder if this whole independence thing is 'cutting off the nose despite the face'. Scotland ditches all the benefits of being in a union yet still ends up (through monetary policy) being controlled by the rest of the UK. Alex Salmond really should have though this through properly - but then he probably has, since his sole mission seems to be to become President of Scotland. I bet he'd appoint himself the King of Scotland if he could 😆

althepal - you read stuff from ASI and dare to post if on here! You are a brave man. Kirkaldy or not, that is pretty racey RW stuff for STW. Mind your back. 😉

IMO, the crux of their argument is the bit about who will be the guarantor for Scottish banks and for the Scottish government (the Selgin bit). Given the obvious future importance of financial services (over-importance?) and the future requirements for Scotland to raise its own debt (not that dear Nicola seems to realise this) this is a crucial point. Actually, to be fair to Strugeon, she knows this full well as does AS hence their proposal for a currency union in the first place.

Being the ASI of course they have to attack the non-free market element of the € zone ie blaming the ECBs roles as a lender of last resort on the crisis. Rather confused logic there and an element of mixing horses and carts.

In essence, they are taking a pretty radical stance by arguing that without a lender of last resort, Scottish banks would behave in a much more prudent way (banks, prudent? have you watched how they have lobbied hard against Vickers). They are very anti moral-hazard and would prefer banks to be allowed to fail.

Fair to say that this is a radical free-market proposal and one that I would expect to have little following in Scotland and in financial markets given the importance of banks to the Scottish economy and the sensitivity of the Scottish economy to its banks.

Still fun to see if the SNP take up an ASI gauntlet and run with it. Outflank, the Tories on the RHS!! That would be something!

Alex Salmond really should have though this through properly - but then he probably has, since his sole mission seems to be to become President of Scotland. I bet he'd appoint himself the King of Scotland if he could

Said in jest I'm sure as it doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny.

If Scotland is independent then we can vote out Alex Salmond whenever we like.

This is a democratic power we don't currently have over our Westminster overseers

Absolutely no-one on either side of the argument is using "Scotland can't afford it" as an argument any more. Its too easily shot down with, you know, numbers and facts and stuff.

Here is the FT's recent take on it:

Here's the oil industry's take on it:

[img] [/img]

Said in jest I'm sure as it doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny.

If Scotland is independent then we can vote out Alex Salmond whenever we like.

This is a democratic power we don't currently have over our Westminster overseers

So, still quite a lot of oil left then? And that's before opening up the west coast that had been off limits due to Trident.

Gives us a nice bit of breathing room while the renewables industry gets online - Scotland has some of the best prospects for renewable energy in Europe.

Hang on a minute. I've just realised something. We're having a Scotland debate, and nobody has posted this….

[img] [/img]

There. Fixed it. Honestly, this place is going to the dogs 🙄

^^^
Hate to tell you this Binners but that statue was removed recently due to the vehement dislike of by the locals! I live in the shadow of Wally Monny.

bencooper - Member

And that's before opening up the west coast that had been off limits due to Trident.

Hmm, could you tell me more about that or point me in the right direction? Googling not going too well.

There's obviously two sides to the oil question but (being biased and pro-Yes) I always think that the oil running out should be a spur to independence not a deterrant- the goose has laid 4 eggs that we didn't get the full benefit of, time to make sure we don't lose the last one. Ought to focus the mind on what we've already lost.

If we discovered oil resources tomorrow equivalent to what's (known to be) left in the north sea, that'd be a huge deal so I don't feel like being down on the fact that there used to be more. Some folks would have you believe it's all been "wasted" or spent on tax bribes but I don't buy that, it's been a huge boost for the UK.

So, still quite a lot of oil left then? And that's before opening up the west coast that had been off limits due to Trident.

This is nothing more than a rumour dredged up by the YES campaign to suit their 'oppressive English stance'. There is no confirmation that oil or gas do indeed exist in commercially viable quantities and it would seem that even if these rumours have substance that BP, a London based company who have allegedly completed a seismic survey would be the biggest beneficiary.

Gives us a nice bit of breathing room while the renewables industry gets online - Scotland has some of the best prospects for renewable energy in Europe.

This is true, but what is also true is that almost all of these resources lie in some of the most beautiful parts of the UK, valuable for tourism, fishing and wildlife. Would Scotland risk harming this by erecting wind turbines and building dams all over the place?

What should also be considered is the huge investment required to exploit these resources and the fact that most renewables companies are currently based overseas (the Danish being the biggest manufacturer of wind turbines for example). Huge amounts of outside and borrowed money will be required to develop Scotland's own renewables industry. Whether outside investment is forthcoming (due to the huge uncertainty created should Scotland become independent) remains to be seen.

Imagine what that find would do to the currency and Scottish exports - remember the 70s! 😉

bencooper - Member
And that's before opening up the west coast that had been off limits due to Trident.

Does anyone have any links to information to back this up?

Which bits are off limits due to Trident?

Why does Trident prevent oil exploration?

Submarines can operate quite happily in the North Sea.

V boats tend to patrol under the ice so they can hide, not off the West Coast.

This is true, but what is also true is that almost all of these resources lie in some of the most beautiful parts of the UK, valuable for tourism, fishing and wildlife. Would Scotland risk harming this by erecting wind turbines and building dams all over the place?

Also http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-22351395
http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A916597.pdf