I am not really debating the "military-industrial complex".I was simply highlighting that there are a large number of public sector jobs and connected jobs that will be lost in an iScotland. Many of these are well paid, secure and with good pensions.
...and the money for those jobs comes from taxes paid by the less comfortable, less secure and worse-pensioned private sector!
The military-industrial complex doesn't create wealth, it just captures it. Your suggestion that its disappearance in an independent Scotland will result in net job losses doesn't stack up: it won't disappear and if it did, it would be good news for the genuine economy.
konabunny - I don't think your Thatcherism will be very popular in iScotland.
winston_dog - MemberYou don't create jobs by having the government employ more people.
A lot of left wing politicians would disagree with you there. AS included.
Must be a Scottish thing….
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7and the money for those jobs comes from taxes paid by the less comfortable, less secure and worse-pensioned private sector!
The majority of income tax is paid by the VERY well off so your accounting does not stack up.
Even if this argument was true we should drag everyone up not try and have everyone work for the minimum wage with no pension.
The military-industrial complex doesn't create wealth, it just captures it.
It really depends
This argument is used against all public sector as if having roads, well educated and healthy people adds nothing of value to the economy.
It may be harder to see the value in a military complex [ i suspect they spend money so it is creates some wealth somewhere as the arms industry will testify to] but - and the right wing usually get this - being able to protect your assets against force may have some value to everyone.
Re the actual issue
Personally I would ignore the posturing on both sides as they are largely saying what they HOPE will occur afterwards - or possibly trying to make scare stories to put people off voting YES or perhaps giving an overly optimistic view to get them to vote YES. Until the hard haggling begins no one knows what will occur
Double post.
Did we not have this conversation before? It's a textbook intangible asset. And of course asset has a usage outside of financial reporting. You can only make the "currency is not an asset" argument by using an artificially narrow definition.
Yes. It isn't. Maybe, if you want to be sloppy with language. Not true, it can only be done by getting the definition deliberately wrong. But hey, the book of dreams is full of that.
Lost of people think that bank deposits are an asset. Look it's money that we have and can use. Er, no they are liabilities pure and simple. Sloppy usage and constant misuse will not change basic facts.
you know what..
living in Scotland is pretty good.. Especially for mountain bikers with our land access laws..
Business wise it's pretty good as well.. Reduced or zero business rates for SME.. Thats not a bad deal..
Health wise, we don't pay for prescriptions and Education wise.. our kids don't have to pay to get into a university..
Our way of thinking is pretty good I'd say... But it could be so much better.. Independence is the only way that it can get better though..
EU in 18 months after a yes vote? No problem.
The Pound ? either have a currency union with the UK pound or have our own Scottish pound which is tied at a 1-1 exchange rate with the UK pound.. Scottish businesses can take either currency and then bank it.. Foreign UK businesses can pay in UK pounds and this can be converted at the the bank.. It's really not rocket science
Border controls.. won't need them as we will be in the EU
Passports. I'm quite happy to have a Scottish one
The best thing about independence is getting rid of the Westminster boys club.. It's a decrepit, failing system that needs to be overhauled... House of lords should be converted to an old folks home..
Business wise it's pretty good as well.. Reduced or zero business rates for SME.. Thats not a bad deal..Health wise, we don't pay for prescriptions and Education wise.. our kids don't have to pay to get into a university..
Zero rates - where does the LA get it's funding?
Prescriptions - Tooth fairy provide them then? Or does the drugs company donate them to Scotland?
In what way is it not an intangible asset? 😕 I had a look, last time i asked you just didn't answer...
Zero rates - where does the LA get it's funding?Prescriptions - Tooth fairy provide them then? Or does the drugs company donate them to Scotland?
LA gets its funding from the Scottish Parliament which gets its pocket money from the UK government which gets paid by the people of Scotland..
Same goes for prescriptions and university places...
Oh... we also just scrapped the bedroom tax.. 🙂
which gets paid by the people of Scotland.
So not free then?
Border controls.. won't need them as we will be in the EU
Excpet that Spain will veto you due to the Catalunya question.
OK, so humour me please. Explain how this parity is fixed and remains fixed between two economies moving relative to each other.The Pound ? either have a currency union with the UK pound or have our own Scottish pound which is tied at a 1-1 exchange rate with the UK pound..
(1) it's a liability
(2) it's real not intangible
So it's a double fail. Admittedly, the idea of it being an asset has a nice ring to it which is precious why [s]liars[/s] politicians use the tactic all the time.
So not free then?
Oh good grief. No, not free, the way the NHS, defence, roads etc are not free. Free at the point of use, to those who need them.
So not free then?
lol.. really... is that the best you can come up with?
Excpet that Spain will veto you due to the Catalunya question.
Doubt it... They are making noises but thats just to keep face.. When it comes to D-Day.. I would put money on them ok'ing it... Even if it was to just stick the fingers up to the UK because of Gibraltar
Cameron would love it if Scotland voted yes - he just doesn't want to be in charge when it happens.
OK, so humour me please. Explain how this parity is fixed and remains fixed between two economies moving relative to each other.
It's called Pegging.. happens all the time.. See this link for brief details..
http://www.currencysolutions.co.uk/euro/why-are-some-currencies-pegged-to-the-euro-exchange-rate
Even if it was to just stick the fingers up to the UK because of Gibraltar
Christ on a bike! This just demonstrates that a lot of the Yes thing is the heart ruling the head. All emotional.
Why would the UK be upset if iScotland joined the EU?
What is more important to Spain? Pissing the UK off or keeping Catalunya?
Christ on a bike! This just demonstrates that a lot of the Yes thing is the heart ruling the head. All emotional.Why would the UK be upset if iScotland joined the EU?
What is more important to Spain? Pissing the UK off or keeping Catalunya?
Pissing off the UK is quite high on their list of priorities these days..
The right to fish in scottish waters would be right up there I'd imagine. Despite their rumbling, Spain will not veto Scotland.What is more important to Spain?
Plus the legal realities scotland and catalunya face are now different, Scotland negotiated a legally binding vote. The Catalans haven't done that, so they are on to plumbs until they do really.
It may be but how would Scotland joining the EU piss the UK off?
It has been observed by various commentators how much the No campaign is like an abusive husband.
"Please don't go, I love you. You'll never cope on your own. Think of all the history we have together. If you go I'll make your life hell. I love you. You need me. You think your new friends will love you as much as I do? You're so emotional."
But I guess that's just back to the failure to make a positive case for the union. In an attempt to tell us we can't afford independence, inevitably you have to run down the positive contribution Scotland makes.
But you can't afford independence - that's the whole point and there's no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The 'wish list' just doesn't stack up, simple as.
The only way for Scotland to become independent is to borrow money - huge vast sums of money the like of which will simply stagger you. You'll need at least the following:
A Scottish military, to fulfill your UN or NATO obligations (yes regardless of you views on this, it is required).
A full new currency system and all that entails.
To take on a portion of the UK debt, debt which you have helped to build so you should still pay for.
A full new welfare, tax, pensions, system.
A new or adapted health service.
A brace of embassies around the world.
To pay your subsidy to the EU (if you join) which would not be subject to the same EU rebate the UK currently enjoys.
A raft of new government, ministers, departments and agencies.
There's loads more but obviously I can't go on listing or we'd be here all day.
Who do you think will pay for the above? Now can you see why Alex Salmond is so keen to say "Yes we want to be an independent country, but yes UK we'd like to use your x,y,z etc" because clearly independence is a dream, which when you look at the actual figures just doesn't stack up.
A Scottish military, to fulfill your UN or NATO obligations (yes regardless of you views on this, it is required).
Had a look at how many military assets are based in Scotland? We'll inherit a share of the UK's military.
A new or adapted health service.
Like NHS Scotland, which is already independent of NHS England?
To pay your subsidy to the EU (if you join) which would not be subject to the same EU rebate the UK currently enjoys.
The Westminster government already doesn't pass on the Scottish share of the rebate to Scotland.
A raft of new government, ministers, departments and agencies.
Many of which we've already got (independent legal system, health system, schools system etc), others will be far smaller and simpler than the UK's. Ever seen the size of the New Zealand Department of Defence building?
But you can't afford independence
We can't afford to not be independent...
There will be costs.. everyone is aware of that but it's not like Scotland has just turned up, pitched a tent and decided to form a new country from scratch..
Scotland will have a bigger national budget than it currently has.. That's where the money is going to come from.
you seem to miss the fact that scotland isn't up and leaving the UK, all on it's lonesome, it's all negortitated with in the context of the UK, so if it does because independent, it's still an EU member, if scotland needs to apply for reentry so will rUK, as they are also agreeing to a change in their national borders.It may be but how would Scotland joining the EU piss the UK off?
Why is it that England seems to own 100% of everything? 😀
We've got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.
I know. I asked how you do it. It requires either the government or central bank to intervene in the market almost continuously to maintain the rate. So how will Scotland do that and with what resource?It's called Pegging.. happens all the time.. See this link for brief details..http://www.currencysolutions.co.uk/euro/why-are-some-currencies-pegged-to-the-euro-exchange-rate
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We'll inherit a share of the UK's military.
That share has nothing to do with where the assets are currently based.
The Westminster government already doesn't pass on the Scottish share of the rebate to Scotland.
Those nasty English picking on the Scots again. Pinching all your money to pay for the London Underground.
Ever seen the size of the New Zealand Department of Defence building?
Yours will need to be bigger than that to look after all the military personnel you seem to want now. I don't believe NZ has any obligation to NATO or similar sized organisation?
rebel12 - Member
As soon as the first proxy government(aka scottish labour) is voted into the scottish parliament, post no vote, all that will disappear to become inline with England anyway.
Why is it that England seems to own 100% of everything?
We're a colony. England (or, more specifically, London) is the centre of the empire, bountifully handing out it's largesse to the regions, and we should be grateful for what we get.
At least that's the opinion of my English father-in-law (lives in Scotland, voting Yes).
if scotland needs to apply for reentry so will rUK, as they are also agreeing to a change in their national borders.
That isn't actually true.
winston_dog - Member
if scotland needs to apply for reentry so will rUK, as they are also agreeing to a change in their national borders.
That isn't actually true.
you don't know that, as the uk government refuse to entertain the question. There is no precident for a member state amicably spliting.
It's about as true as you telling us we'll be frozen out of europe, which is ridiculous.
We've got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.
Nope, you really haven't!
I'm confused Winston...A page ago you were saying that none of the military were staying. Now you are saying there will be so many staying we can't afford them all? What is a poor confused "Jock" like me meant to think?
As an aside, the likes of W-D fly into debates on the indy vote (he even started a thread on the use of the word Jock) What are you all so worried about? A lot of contributers in this thread make their distain for Scotland so obvious that the abusive husband comparison, albeit in poor taste,has it nailed. I really am curious as to why there is so much venom.
Funny to see wee eck's sidekick's desperate attempts to hide behind the cliches of bullying and intimidation again ithis morning.
So the SNP believes it is right and proper to lie to the population of Scotland. When the EU, the BOE, and senior politicians from all major parties point out the errors in what they are saying (the diplomatic description of bare faced lies) and explain the reality of the issues under consideration, it becomes bullying and intimidation.
Apparently some people fall for this BS.
They need a few teachers in there who know only too well how often the bullies are the ones who are crying bully themselves!!! The SNP is a prime example.
[OK, so humour me please. Explain how this parity is fixed and remains fixed between two economies moving relative to each other.
It's called Pegging.. happens all the time.. See this link for brief details..
http://www.currencysolutions.co.uk/euro/why-are-some-currencies-pegged-to-the-euro-exchange-rate
]
Pegging .... happens all the time ... and has been instrumental in many financial disasters..... as a solution it sound simple however the risks of pegging to a floating currency are very significant
That whole thing takes it from the stand point that it's completely accepted that rUK would accert a right to be the continuing member state. Which tbh, would probably happen, but I doubt it wouldn't be open to a legitimate legal challenge.ninfan - Member
We've got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.
Nope, you really haven't!
plus the guy all but admits it would be ridiculous for scotland not to be entered into europe, with our MEPs doubled. and also that rUKs voting powers and MEPs would also increase as a result(relative to current minus the scottish continignent.).
you telling us we'll be frozen out of europe
I'm not Spain is.
AFAIK the EU have stated that the UK will not have to reapply if SCotland leaves.
No, he didn't. He clearly said that MEP numbers are capped and for Scotland to rise, we'd need to negotiate other countries having fewer. He also made it clear there was no automatic right to join irrespective of how suitable Scotland might be as a member, that border controls would be necessary and that adoption of the Euro would be a legal requirement.plus the guy all but admits it would be ridiculous for scotland not to be entered into europe, with our MEPs doubled. and also that rUKs voting powers and MEPs would also increase as a result(relative to current minus the scottish continignent.).
seosamh77 - MemberWe've got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.
What does that even mean? We seem to be on the same side but this almost made my head pop.
rebel12 - MemberBut you can't afford independence - that's the whole point and there's no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The 'wish list' just doesn't stack up, simple as.
I guess this is exactly the sort of thing Grum doesn't want me to rise to as it's too obviously rubbish to even bother shooting down?
So is this but I can't resist-
cranberry - Member
The funny thing is that if the EU let them in they will be forced to take the Euro
[i]everyone[/i] knows this is mince, but it's the unsinkable rubber duck of Project Fear, people keep repeating it and if you repeat things often enough they mysteriously become accepted facts. How to join the EU without joining the euro- 1) agree convergence criteria, 2) don't converge. Already openly established policy for EU members.
That man in the video is extremely clever. He knew all the answers and didn't get political once. Good on him.
Anyway. So if Scotland wants the pound it means they don't want to join Europe.
But they do seem to want to join Europe which means taking the euro..
Am I right? Has that solved it?
people keep repeating it and if you repeat things often enough they mysteriously become accepted facts
The story for both sides of the fence here.
zippykona - MemberBut they do seem to want to join Europe which means taking the euro..
Hah, couldn't have timed that better eh 😆 Cheers!
I'm confused Winston...A page ago you were saying that none of the military were staying.
I didn't. I just said a lot of jobs would be lost with the reduction in the amount of military assets and personnel.
Now you are saying there will be so many staying we can't afford them all?
Not sure where I said that either?
(he even started a thread on the use of the word Jock)
So what? That was a genuine question in response to another thread where someone got flamed for using it and he was surprised it had upset so many people. I was surprised how many sensitive souls there was. Nowt to do with independence.
distain for Scotland
Absolutely not. Just because I think the "Yes" voters are deluded doesn't mean I think less of Scotland.
I lived there for six years and loved a lot of it. What I didn't like was a distinct minority that had an irrational dislike of the English and blamed "them" for loads of things.
I still work a lot up there and with a lot of [s]Jocks[/s] Scots in other places.
