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Larry Elliott and now Steve Bell - do we have to add them (and TG's editors) to the list of bullies? 😉
Steve Bell isn't a bully, but I've lost a lot of respect for him. Satirising Salmond is fine (for cartoonists, playing the man is perfectly acceptable), but making comments like that about the whole country is different.
AS is pretty much the current face of Scotland for the UK - for better or worse. He does come across as wanting to turn any question into an attack on the tories, to some it also comes across as an attack on the English as well, although that does depend on personal outlook.
He is the face of the yS campaign so he is going to catch the flak, the fact he comes across as being as smug & arrogant as Cameron is unfortunate for him/gold for satirists.
Ah thm, you keep trying to suggest project fear is just a figment of touchy Scots minds...Yet constantly run AS down as a bully. How much do you think cartoons like that contribute to increasing the no vote?
It just saddens me.
Seriously?
It's called comedy and no one is off limits.
You can seriously expect Scottish Inependence to be off limit?
The latest was Steve Bell. He was fantastic during Thatcher, nice portrayals of Blair were wonderfully observed, and Cameron with a condom on his head is just perfect
Ahh, I get it now. Only politicians you don't like can be mocked...
I'm personally hoping it increases the yes vote! 😆
These aren't jokes about Scottish independence, they're jokes about Scots - and they're always the same jokes. Kilts, haggis, tartan, fried food, bad weather, tight with money, etc. the same jokes people have been making for decades when they can't think of anything funny to say.
I'm sure people from Liverpool get equally tired of the jokes about dole, not working, stealing etc.
As I said, try being Irish for a while.
You Scots don't know the half of it. 😆
(To be sure.)
You can seriously expect Scottish Inependence to be off limit?The latest was Steve Bell. He was fantastic during Thatcher, nice portrayals of Blair were wonderfully observed, and Cameron with a condom on his head is just perfect
Ahh, I get it now. Only politicians you don't like can be mocked...
+1
His art (cartoons in a newspaper) are always trying to be controversial.
Also, re. project fear.
Politics these days is selling ideas to get elected or get a desired vote in a referendum. It's just classic salesmanship. Everybody trying to sell you something will (and should if he's any good at it) create the fear that without it, your life is somehow inadequate and you will be miserable for it's lack. You're then presented with the item or solution to assuage that fear.
Both camps are using "fear".
nS creating fear that a breakaway is to sail into stormy waters without your big brother/best mate to help you, thereby increasing the likelihood of floundering on the rocks. yS creating fear of a Tory future, another five years of austerity, at least five in every ten years of being ruled by those who make up rules in the dressing rooms of Eton and the ivory towers of Oxbridge.
How does anyone think a future EU In/Out referendum will be played? It'll be all about creating fear of the opposite result to that you desire to sell your idea - if anyone thinks "Project Fear" is cynical now, well, one ain't seen nuffin yet.
Politics is peddling one fear after the other. It's not about policies any more - it's more about creating fear of the other lot getting in. Modern bi-partisanism in the US is the distillation of all this.
These aren't jokes about Scottish independence, they're jokes about Scots
I'd say it's about Independance rather than Scots. After all if there wasn't this debate, I'm pretty sure Steve Bell would be mocking someone else.
Anyway if you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire and back in the union 😉
tight with money,
That's people from Yorkshire and Bolton, those citizens north of the border are merely amateurs 😉
I just can't see how Scotland is getting independence when it seems in all likelihood financial independence is being ceded...
The phrase is "going Dutch" for a reason, they are the champions of monetary caution.
Remember that Spitting Image Gazza puppet greeting everywhere? bencooper reminds me of that. If Spitting Image was still on the go we'd be flooded up here too. The ability to laugh at ourselves has always set us apart. I think that cartoon is funny but then again I'm happy to be called jock, or sweaty or haggis muncher and all the other things.
Could be the British sense of humour? I am a big fan of Monkey Dust. If the UK wasn't both good and a bit s**t it just wouldn't work. In general, too many people in Scotland are ready to dish out our brand of 'banter' but are not happy when it comes the other way.
Few weeks back (belated Burns supper) I had my first experience of Haggis.
Disappointed.
Neither enjoyable nor horrific.
Ben Cooper is on very sketchy ground complaining about English people abusing Scots. Winding up the English is a national sport among Scots. I have seen Scots with their faces painted in German flag colours and cheering as if it was Scotland beating England the last time England played Germany. English people do not do the same when Scotland play other teams.
Remember that Spitting Image Gazza puppet greeting everywhere? bencooper reminds me of that. If Spitting Image was still on the go we'd be flooded up here too. The ability to laugh at ourselves has always set us apart. I think that cartoon is funny but then again I'm happy to be called jock, or sweaty or haggis muncher and all the other things.
We are very good at laughing at ourselves - just look at the main subject of almost any Scottish comedian. That's not what I'm talking about - I'm talking about how the mainstream media seems to think it's acceptable to make such comments about the Scottish - and yes, the Irish, the Liverpudlians, pretty much anyone who isn't London and the Home Counties.
But really what I was talking about wasn't even that - I was simply talking about the disappointment when someone who has always seemed a decent sort comes out with the stereotypes to get a cheap laugh.
It shouldn't be about Scotland vs England, and I think the vast majority on both sides don't see it that way.
Am I missing something here? The cartoon you're finding so offensive, which offensive stereotypes does that contain? Exactly who do you think it is taking the P out of? Are you suggesting AS isn't fair game?
In other news, it was good of Cameron yesterday to point out how much our road and rail network has benefited from being part of the union,cos I hadn't noticed and might have missed that. What's that David? Your new train set from Birmingham to London is of national importance and benefits Scotland? Good example.
I just can't see how Scotland is getting independence when it seems in all likelihood financial independence is being ceded...
It's an illusory monetary independence that the UK has now. Nothing important is being lost.
In other news, it was good of Cameron yesterday to point out how much our road
Scottish roads made me buy a car with big wheels.
bencooper - Member
We are very good at laughing at ourselves
🙂
bencooper - Member
I'm talking about how the mainstream media seems to think it's acceptable to make such comments about the Scottish - and yes, the Irish, the Liverpudlians, pretty much anyone who isn't London and the Home Counties.
Have you genuinely never heard of stupid Essex slags with Tango'd skin wearing white stilettos (aka TOWIE), 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells', Chelsea Tractors, Nathan Barley etc?
What about Chas and Dave
Their a mickey take too....aren't they?
Actually, being from Norfolk I'm disgusted by some of the terms used by the NHS.
There's nothing normal about Norfolk.
piemonster - MemberScottish roads made me buy a car with big wheels.
Actually, being from Norfolk
In the rest of the country we call them tractors.
It's an illusory monetary independence that the UK has now. Nothing important is being lost
???
The UK has illusory monetary independence? How so?
The UK is tied into a web of IMF, EU and WTO treaties, limiting what the treasury can do. Not to mention those overseas creditors holding a trillion pounds of debt.
One assumes yS in a currency union would have slightly less financial independence than say, PIGS in the recent Euro crisis. While each of those countries has a degree of overall independence that Scotland doesn't yet have.
The bit I find most upsetting personally about the whole independence debate is how it shows up people I used to really like and respect. Too many times I've been watching HIGNFY or listening to Radio 4 or similar, and someone who I thought was a decent sensible person comes out with some rot about Scotland and the Scottish.
The latest was Steve Bell. He was fantastic during Thatcher, nice portrayals of Blair were wonderfully observed, and Cameron with a condom on his head is just perfect, but then he produces this:
This just shows you've lost any sense of perspective. I'm sure you didn't mind when he made similarly crude jokes about Thatcher etc.
And some people can laugh at their own stereotypes - eg Liverpool fans singing 'you've got DiCanio we've got your stereo'.
All you're doing here is sounding humourless and like you've got a chip on your shoulder - I won't make the obvious dig. 😉
In the rest of the country we call them tractors.
@duckman that's the best post on this thread so far 🙂
To nick the phrase used above (and credit to the Two Ronnies one of whom was of course the pride of Scotland) - and in other news
I see in the FT this morning that Salmond has said Scotland will use the pound. I think we will soon see some analysis from the markets as to what the added cost to Scotland will be of this as Scotland will have to borrow money exclusively in currency it does not control (e.g. pound, euro, dollar) and which it's central bank cannot "print", investors will not like this at all. I see this as a temporary measure as I've posted many times if an independent Scotland wants to join the EU it's going to have to use the euro.
There are of course bitcoins, these seem to be quite topical at the moment, perhaps Scotland can use these.
[b]bencooper[/b] - Member
The UK is tied into a web of IMF, EU and WTO treaties, limiting what the treasury can do. Not to mention those overseas creditors holding a trillion pounds of debt.
Those treaties bring benefits and well as obligations, they are not a "straight-jacket". The Treasury has a huge amount of freedom, an Independent Scotland tied to the pound will have very little freedom and virtually no control on fiscal matters except over taxes.
I see this as a temporary measure as I've posted many times if an independent Scotland wants to join the EU it's going to have to use the euro.
Any commitment to a currency union would be long term, short term would only be possible if Scotland opts to use the pound without a union, in which case it may be used as s stepping stone to a new Scots currency. as for the Euro, it doesn't matter how often you say it, it wouldn't be the case unless existing EU laws change.
In the rest of the country we call them tractors.
😆
I should be offended by your rude joke about Norfolk types.
But I'm not. Good post.
bencooper - Member
It shouldn't be about Scotland vs England, and I think the vast majority on both sides don't see it that way.
+
duckman - Member
In the rest of the country we call them tractors
Two great examples of excellent Scottish SOH but Ben I think yours needed a smiley to avoid any doubt 😉 !
Not all of Steve Bell's Scottish Independence output has been funny but I did enjoy this one this morning
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This just shows you've lost any sense of perspective. I'm sure you didn't mind when he made similarly crude jokes about Thatcher etc.
Show me a Thatcher cartoon where he said that the English should go **** themselves.
I've not got a problem with him satirising the person - that oil rig one up there is a good example - but being plain offensive to a whole country is different.
an Independent Scotland tied to the pound will have very little freedom and virtually no control on fiscal matters except over taxes.
1) there's not much freedom to opt out of global capitalism - that's why it's illusory
2) Scotland is already tied to the pound, and unless there's a proposal to tow the territory to, say, butt up against Jutland, then it's going to be tied to the pound for as long as England uses it. It's funny how the British patriots on this thread are most interested in striving for a state of independence that is mythical.
3) you don't know what fiscal means!
Ben, strange that its taken you a whole, what, thirteen months to be offended by this Steve Bell cartoon, that was published on 31st January 2013 ?
Show me a Thatcher cartoon where he said that the English should go **** themselves.
Oh, so that's the only thing that it's ok to be offended about. Righty-ho.
I've not got a problem with him satirising the person - that oil rig one up there is a good example - but being plain offensive to a whole country is different.
Personally I don't find Steve Bell particularly amusing or clever anyway, but each to their own.
Ben, you are not coming across well.
Why are Scottish stereotypes not fair game?
That thin about watermelon and haggis is nonsense. Your iconic Bard wrote a poem about haggis, you have a whole ceremony for haggis on Burns night and a lot of people find the ingredients of haggis a bit strange.
When it suits the whole cultural identity thing is celebrated when its mocked you call foul.
He almost always shows Cameron with a condom on his head I assume to suggest dickhead - he is rarely flattering to his targets
Ben i agree that stereotyping does exist and that sometimes it passes the mark but thi sis just standard Bell stuff - not a great fan wither myself tbh - sometimes funny sometimes just flicking the V's at people he dislikes
“Photoshopped versions appeared almost instantly with the word “Scotland” replaced by “England”. An intended consequence, aimed at providing ammunition for those who would paint independence supporters as anti-English?”
http://wingsoverscotland.com/friends-like-these-2/
So, would you find the Photoshopped version similarly offensive, and do you agree with this fairly silly conspiracy theory?
New Statesman also says No to AS's master plan: