Congratulations to everyone who campaigned, debated and voted. I am delighted with the result.
As @tmh says the No campaign and Cameron should look quite hard at their (over) reaction to the Murdoch poll and indeed to it's source.
I think Scotland should be given income tax setting powers, I say so as its a political hot potato, lets see what they can do with it, my view is very little.
One very interesting comment made by Cameron is that William Hague will lead a panel to look at how English MPs vote on English legislation, the sub text here is that the influence of the Labour party will be reduced.
EDIT: A big thank you to Gordon Brown, I think he made a real difference
Salmond is anything but a comedy turn in Scotland. The mistake is to underestimate him.
@epic I have been saying the same thing about Farage and UKIP for more than a year. The mainstream parties and many on here just dismissed immigration as a non issue, the voters have told us otherwise. Salmond fought a very good campaign he focused on a dream not facts and gave many a scare.
mt - Member
Farage is the comedy turn for England in the same way as Salmond is for Scotland.
You do Know salmold is the elected leader of his country with popularity ratings that other westminster leaders could only dream of
Without meaning to be a rude it is a view [largely]only the English have of him
As @tmh says the No campaign and Cameron should look quite hard at their (over) reaction to the Murdoch poll and indeed to it's source.
IF you want to get conspiratorial over it you can have it bith ways
Done to get concessions or done to make sure no turned up
Either way Westminster did "cave" in if you want tabloid language or offer concessions if you want broadsheet.
Its a funny world when devo max was never offered but it was what was delivered.
Anyway, we are together. As one. We are stronger, more powerful as a union and I couldn't think of better neighbours to live next to and visit.
I can't wait to order my favourite pint of Caledonian80 again very soon 🙂
The voice over is questionable but the images need to be explained...
Well put hora.
"A vital part of that will be [b]a balanced settlement[/b], fair to people in Scotland and [b]importantly to everyone in England, Wales and Northern Ireland as well.[/b]
Well put CMD
🙄Stop and think next time before you type a negative post. It'd help you in life too that approach.
Great,thanks for that,it's always good to get advice from such a well respected poster }[i]puts handbag down[/i]{.
On a very positive note,the atmosphere at work is brilliant ,everyone I have talked to feels they have been part of something very special.
And time will pass... and maybe some of them will realise that in the end they've got ****-all...
JIVE HONEY TO THE FORUM
Paranoid frothing
Stay away from you tube links
On reflection I think yes would have been better for me. Extrapolating the result looks like it will ultimately lead to perpetual Tory rule in the East of England, which doesn't fill me with a lot of hope. Good result for Scotland though.
Its a funny world when devo max was never offered but it was what was delivered.
Indeed JY indeed. I think Cameron thought the No would win easily and he would have to offer nothing. The SNP wanted Devo max as an option on the ballot and IMO it's the outcome they thought was attainable, and it's best for Scotland.
Let's see how 'max' the devo is. It will most likely be the responsibility without the funding or control.
Aberdeenshire 60% no, that's got to sting a bit.
Oil and gas workers, innit
Is that polite for english 😉
I hate to say it but that youtube link is quite disturbing!
Cameron, with a lot of help from Gordon Brown, has set Labour a really nasty conundrum. Support constitutional change. and face the prospect of being unable to govern England; or oppose it, and fight a rainbow coalition of all the other parties who want it.
the fat lady sang after the north/south lanarkshire and glasgow results.
I called it (and went to bed) when the Western Isles voted no. Not significant in terms of the number of votes, but significant from the POV that if Yes couldn't win there they weren't going to win.
Scotland's gift to the UK - we've saved Cameron and saved you lot from being Borissed.
Indeed - I'm far from a CMD fan, and actually used to quite like Boris, but god help us all if he got to be in charge. Thank you Scotland.
So to sum up, who are the winners and losers?
Winners:
Gordon Brown - he has just resurrected his reputation as a heavy hitting politician. What are the odds on him becoming Scottish First Minister?
CMD - well he gave them the referendum they asked for, got the result he wanted and is now looking like a real statesman - still has some difficult and dangerous games to play though
Alistair Darling - another resurrection job, might have been a bit rubbish in the second debate, but ultimately his team won
Losers:
AS - I'm sure he'll be busy spinning it as a win in some sense, but that's not how he sees it, nor how others within his party and wider Scotland will see it - I predict he won't be there for long
Ed - on the winning side, but honestly has he actually contributed anything?
Boris - see comments on CMD
of course that could all be a load of rubbish, but it's how I'm seeing it
Aracer - you missed the most obvious and the most important. The people of Scotland and the rUK are the winners. It's them/us that matter not our representatives. The most successful union in history has been maintained and for good and obvious reasons. The structure will, of course, evolve now and hopefully in a balanced way.
It will be a worry for Labour that ED was so marginal. Obvious why CMD might be, but Ed....ouch.
Is that polite for english
Nope
The structure will, of course, evolve now and hopefully in a balanced way.
I would be suprised,Milliband has proved how useless he is,increasingly he sounds like the Roman senator from Life of Brian.And Labour has become a fairly toxic brand up here now;The areas that voted yes are traditionally strong Labour seats. I think that safe from the near miss he has had,Cameron will,as he has promised "Make sure Englands voice is heard." And he has five years to do it,his backbenchers are already up in arms about giving Scotland more devolved powers. Might struggle to get them into the Queens speech anytime soon.
Boris will be leader of the Tories one day, sooner or later.
Gordon Brown should indeed think what his next steps should be, having been UK PM he may see campaigning for First Minister as a step down (no insult intended to the Scots here just it's a big risk to stand and then fail). A senior role at the EU ?
Agreed Milibrand has been the big loser here. Labour chose the wrong brother.
Labour chose the wrong brother.
Every time I see him in my head I hear Wallace saying "It's the wrong Miliband, Gromit!"
Boris will be leader of the Tories one day, sooner or later.
Hopefully after a heavy defeat for the Tories which will result in lots of infighting, failing to get in at the next election and Boris being defeated in a leadership election whilst still in opposition.
Not that I hate the guy, or think he's stupid - on the contrary he's quite likeable and very intelligent. He is also very dangerous IMHO.
after a heavy defeat for the Tories which will result in lots of infighting, failing to get in at the next election
Yeah, but the Tories now get to go into the next election preaching a manifesto of radical political reform and devolution of powers to Welsh, Ni and English cities/regions, along with reform of EU relationship and an EU referendum
So hopefully Boris doesn't get to be Tory leader just yet then.
I'd always planned to write some gloating message when Scotland voted no, but after the result it doesn't feel at all appropriate.
The reality is it doesn't really matter if we voted yes or no, Salmond or Cameron. The thing that makes us great is not the parties, nor the politicians , its the people of scotland. I'm happy we voted no, but i'm proud that we showed such passion over the past few months..
I may not have agreed with the yes campaign, but they have undoubtably showed that Scotland deserves a better deal than we currently get. and the work they have done has undoubtably benefited the people of scotland.
Yeah, but the Tories now get to go into the next election preaching a manifesto of radical political reform and devolution of powers to Welsh, Ni and English cities/regions, along with reform of EU relationship and an EU referendum
Yes, bingo. The more I think of it the Tories have taken the initiative here. There will have to be NI devolution to some degree otherwise there cannot be "English only" decisions.
Devolution for the North of England (probably need a thread 😉 ) - this again could be very double edged, if the "North" gets to determine their own tax/spend policies (in some regard eg by uncapping local rates/council tax) then their citizens are going to face higher tax bills to pay for spending initiatives. It could be political genius for, say, property taxes like stamp duty to be spent more locally, the South East raises much more than the rest of the country. Boroughs of Kensington and Chelsea and Westminster raise 7% of the national total. the top 1% pay 30% of the taxes. I am not saying all tax gets spent locally but if taxes do / powers do get more localised IMO there will only be one result. UK regional devolution can only help the South, no ?
Well said @tp but with the one comment that Scotland already gets a very good deal, as was highlighted in the campaign better than the Welsh.
if the "North" gets to determine their own tax/spend policies (in some regard eg by uncapping local rates/council tax) then their citizens are going to face higher tax bills to pay for spending initiatives. It could be political genius for, say, property taxes like stamp duty to be spent more locally, the South East raises much more than the rest of the country. Boroughs of Kensington and Chelsea and Westminster raise 7% of the national total. the top 1% pay 30% of the taxes.
Many of the Ideas were actually bandied around a few years ago by Carswell and Hannan - council tax replaced by local income tax for example, swinging the pressure back on to local authorities to control their spending and stops them blaming central government for cuts. Though likely not as radical as devolution of VAT or Corporation taxes, which would create competition between the regions to host companies (could be very good for the North though, if it suddenly became a lot cheaper to do business in certain parts of the country, and the increased local income taxes beneficial for the area) - Secretly, I suspect this is what Salmond was after, I think its probably too risky for central government to deliver, but personally I would support it.
@ninfan, if you have local corporation tax you'll just get brass plate offices and few employees. Local income tax instead of council tax decimates retirement orientated communities, eg coastal towns. It's complicated !
As I thought 16-18 year olds where heavily Yes driven by 16-17yr olds. That's why the SNP included them in the vote. Good for the "democratic" spin but also politcally pragmatic.
Older voters and Labour heavily No (more evidence of Brown to the rescue?). the older you where the more likely you where to vote No. Yes support dominated by the SNP vote. "Westminster" party voters predominantly No
[url= https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/512890984255205376/photo/1 ]Ashcroft Poll[/url]
the older you where the more likely you where to vote No
With 18-24 voting No, it's not quite that clearcut
Jambalaya - I'm sure that you could move to prevent that (eg. apportioned on headcount basis or restricted to office with biggest headcount) and the coastal regions might select alternative/additional levies - the idea was that whatever came about was more adaptable to local needs to stimulate employment or economy than a blanket national policy.
One possible unexpected thing was that a lot of students may not have voted.
Term has just started and if they were not registered in their new addresses, they either had to make other arrangements or go home.
Two girls who share a flat with my daughter didn't get round to it in time so missed voting, so I wonder how many more there were.
but the Tories now get to go into the next election preaching a manifesto of radical political reform and devolution of powers to Welsh, Ni and English cities/regions, along with reform of EU relationship and an EU referendum
That is not radical seeing as all the parties are promising all of that
Even ignorign that it is not that radical
I think the Tories have issue without the coalition to curtail them - he can blame clegg here- but the party is split asunder on the EU. On the union they actually agree . IMHO the EU will be a train crash for them however it goes- whatever he " renegotiates" a large cadre of influential Tories will oppose it and campaign to leave. it will be unmanageable.
It goes with out saying that Ed is as damp a squib as it possible to get. He is impossible to get animated about either in love or hate.
As for the winners and the losers i would say a score draw
Before all this vote IMHO AS would have taken this and CMD would not have offered it
As it turns out, at the end, clearly CMD is more of a winner than AS . However we cannot be sure if this next devolutionary step is part of the glacial constitutional change that befalls the UK in the inexorable progression to separation or it is the end of the journey,
History needs to judge this IMHO
BBC reporting Miliband will not sign up to the PM's plan to give more powers to the Scottish Parliament.
Courageous.
Junkyard - lazarus
...As it turns out, at the end, clearly CMD is more of a winner than AS . However we cannot be sure if this next devolutionary step is part of the glacial constitutional change that befalls the UK in the inexorable progression to separation or it is the end of the journey...
Nice summary - in losing Salmond got almost all he wanted in the first place, but he is still seen as the loser.
If this process benefits the rest of the UK, that will be good too.
But how about we all start agitating for an oil fund like Norway?
Well we told you that NO delivered what you wanted - we could have solved a lot of time, expense and aggravation!
There is going to a whole load of nonsense with Lab and Cons having to position themselves on how/what to devolve. Forget the promises made in panic mode, this all needs to be debated and put to the rUK. This will be a big topic (although overshadowed by EU and the recovery in the economy) in 2015.
Having had months if Scot-centric debate over the past 6 months, CMD has already signalled his intention to move this to making changes that suit him in England. Lab will have three fronts to defend now - Scotland, England and the economic recovery. As if Ed didn't have enough to worry about already.
Wishful thinking on the reasons behind the delay in Salmond's press statement!!!! Nicola just ready to apply the nudge?
But how about we all start agitating for an oil fund like Norway?
Great idea. So next steps to create a budget surplus.....
!!
BS even in his resignation speech!
A role in Europe now?
Salmond to resign
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527[/url]
But how about we all start agitating for an oil fund like Norway?
By paying more tax today, or by spending less or both (same as @tmh said)
@epic the differential was 400,000+ so a few students wouldn't have made any difference
Personally I am surprised at the AS resignation, Scots to get Sturgeon instead ? Yes defeat even more costly than they thought 😉
jambalaya - Member
...@epic the differential was 400,000+ so a few students wouldn't have made any difference...
Sorry, wasn't intending to imply it would have made much difference. The girls my daughter is sharing with were going to be no voters anyway.
Just one of those things you need to be aware about if you have a student voter in the family.
(I'm a believer in having people exercise their vote whether or not it is the same as mine)
