[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

[quote=brooess ]Either way, it's not what the UK needs at a time of such economic delicacy... we need some certainty and reason to be confident about the future.When would be a good time pleasethankyouverymuch?

Also just about every lamp post is festooned with YES posters whereas the NOs only appear every few hundred yards

Yup, we were over East Kilbride way, came back through the city - Yes boards on almost every lamppost on the main roads, very few No Thanks ones mostly in the posher areas. Saw a few Yes taxis too - covered in stickers.

This is the fundamental difference between the campaigns. Those taxi drivers did that off their own bat. The Yes boards were probably put up by some people with ladders who organised themselves. And of course all the Yes windows are self-organised.

Whereas the No campaign is very top-down. Famous politicians at the top, a professional ad agency hired to produce all the marketing material, all the adverts focus-grouped to death, so they get bland nonsense phrases like "I love my kids, I'm voting No Thanks". They can't react quickly, so the new posters just going up say "Protect your pound, your pay, your pension", a week after Darling said that of course we could use the pound. Oh, and the pension thing is bollocks too. But that poster was probably commissioned months ago, so they have to run with it.

Well when you consider that Osborne was encouraging people to not vote no on the Andre Marr show this morning, you can pretty much discount everything he says.

Also, I went back to my home town today and was talking to a few people on the subject of the referendum. They all told me that they were voting No because they didn't know enough about it. That seems to me a ludicrous reason for voting No. When I pointed out their flawed reasoning they decided that they would not vote.

I just wonder how many other people are voting No because they don't know enough about it as opposed to making an educated choice.

When would be a good time pleasethankyouverymuch?

At least when both Scotland and restofUK have reasonably strong economic foundations with manageable levels of debt and a positive economic outlook (and don't forget our ageing populations, which reduce the size of the economically active population)...

Honestly, whether you're Scottish, English, Welsh, Northern Irish, for or against Scottish independence, this is possibly the worst time in a generation to do something which creates so much uncertainty about the future (on which investment and spending depend - both our own and foreign investment). Money is already beginning to leave Scotland because people aren't sure what their money'll be worth in a couple of year's time...

Looking at the different comments on bbc, Guardian on here, people are quite emotional about it. It's incredibly divisive because of the uncertainty it's driving at a time when we're desperate for some stability and confidence - pitching Scot against Scot and Scotland against England (in particular)...

[quote=brooess ]

When would be a good time pleasethankyouverymuch?

Just think how much "uncertainty" will be removed when Osborne agrees to a currency union - for the sake of the rUK of course...

brooess - Member
...Looking at the different comments on bbc, Guardian on here, people are quite emotional about it. It's incredibly divisive because of the uncertainty it's driving at a time when we're desperate for some stability and confidence - pitching Scot against Scot and Scotland against England (in particular)...

BBC, Guardian, neither present an unbiased picture.

I really haven't seen any of this emotion they're all talking about. Certainly no worse than a normal political campaign.

Any discussions I have seen or been involved in have been good-natured. Any nastiness is from the very few bampots on each side - although strangely the real violence seems to have been perpetrated by the No side.

We are expecting it to be the last card they have left to play - inciting some violence just before the poll in the hope of turning people of voting Yes. Word is out to turn the other cheek.

Why else are they importing "thousands" of Orange Order marchers from NI for a march through Edinburgh just before the election. The NI hard men, expert at provoking violence, and they're not coming here to hand out flowers in a peaceful demonstration.

Don't believe the propaganda, it's truly dire.

A timetable for new powers for Scotland would not break referendum purdah period rules, says the UK government.

The UK and Scottish governments are prohibited from publishing anything which argues "for or against a particular outcome" during purdah.

On Sunday, UK Chancellor George Osborne said voters in Scotland will be offered a plan for more powers.

However, the UK government claims the offer would come from the pro-Union parties, not the government itself.

[img] [/img]

BBC, Guardian, neither present an unbiased picture.

I really haven't seen any of this emotion they're all talking about. Certainly no worse than a normal political campaign.

Any discussions I have seen or been involved in have been good-natured. Any nastiness is from the very few bampots on each side - although strangely the real violence seems to have been perpetrated by the No side.

I'm not talking about the editorial, I'm talking about the comments from the likes of you and me underneath the editorial - it can't show bias other than it's comments from self-selecting individuals...

And I never said anyone was being nasty - just emotional ie: people are quite scared about what it means or triumphant, depending on which way they want the vote to go, which is just divisive - emotion (fear, anger, resentment) tends to drive people to entrenched extremes and conflict rather than pragmatism.

It also appears that a major decision which will affect every one of 60m people in the UK is being based on emotion and idealism rather than reliable forecasts of economic growth, foreign investment levels, employment etc. I grant you that's not a lot different from your average general election but it's not ideal to make such a major decision on so few facts IMO...

Travelled up to Ayr from England for the airshow [Lancasters didn't turn up!!]. Stayed in DandG overnight. Went via A76, and from postings on here was expecting YES/NO bunting and posters everywhere - was disappointed - there was a YES gazebo in Thornhill and Ayr, and a bloke giving Labour NO leaflets out of a sack in Ayr. I saw a few YES posters in windows, but no NO posters and a few small YES stickers on lamposts. I saw one YES and one NO large placard in different roadside fields the whole journey.
At the airshow there was one YES and two NO stalls [one Labour No].
The YES's were more active mingling with the crowds and looked more professional in YES tabards.
We walked past the YES and NO points in Ayr town centre and were not engaged or given anything - we must look obviously English 🙂

At the airshow a YES person asked my wife how she was voting - he must have ignored me and homed in on her as she is a redhead 🙂
He just grunted when she said she didn't have a vote, but hoped Scotland would choose to stay in UK.

As I say I was disappointed as I expected it to be more high key, with people on soap boxes, etc 🙂

I thought the commentary at the air show was at times a subliminally pro UK when the military aircraft were flying. Lots of the use of 'British' - especially the commentary for the Vulcan and how it's deterrent kept the Britain safe - some people would use the same words as a defence for Trident.

It's mentioned on here how poor the NO campaign has been, they certainly look amateur from what I've seen in the media down in England, but has any of the Scottish contingent on here had their mind changed by a leaflet, advert or campaigner?

PS:
There is a guitar shop in Ayr called exactly what you'd want it to be called, and an Indian restaurant called 'Ayr India' 😀

Life is uncertain. How many people (apart from a very few smug economists) saw the 2008 economic meltdown coming? We have lots of data about the past performance of the Scottish economy, data which everyone on both sides agrees shows that Scotland can be a successful country.

This isn't an economic argument, and the No campaign's failure to turn it into one is one big reason their numbers keep falling.

They all told me that they were voting No because they didn't know enough about it. That seems to me a ludicrous reason for voting No.

However voting yes, whilst hoping it will all come out OK in the negotiations outcome is fine?

If I were in Scotland, I would vote YES for sure. Whatever happens has got to be better than the blind alley that the UK has been led down for the last 35 years. I'd vote to leave the ship before it sinks.
I hope the Scots then throw their considerable intellectual muscle into Europe and strengthen the anti-anglosphere coalition there.

[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/thousands-of-orange-order-members-to-stand-with-scottish-brethren-in-edinbu.25254357 ]Bus in some trouble[/url]

aracer - Member
However voting yes, whilst hoping it will all come out OK in the negotiations outcome is fine?

The consequences of voting No are looking pretty bleak.

Coalition of Conservative/UKIP govt in near future. Lead by Boris and Farage, both of whom are keen to strip funding from Scotland.

Out of the EU.

More wars.

More disadvantaged and needy dying of starvation.

etc

If we stay in the Union we have no control over that happening. Better to be in control of our own destiny even if it's tougher than it should have been.

I just wonder how many other people are voting No because they don't know enough about it as opposed to making an educated choice.

I'm voting from a purely selfish point of view. I have a very real fear that a Yes vote will result in me and my immediate family being much worse off due to unfavourable interest rates and the toll they'll take on mortgage payments.

I await a flaming for having the temerity to take out a mortgage (two actually, although that's a different yet somewhat related story) and thus being part and parcel of our debt-beholden society, but there you go. Study hard, work hard, pay your taxes, do well for yourself, buy a house. That's pretty much the opportunity we're after in a fairer independent Scotland, isn't it?

Coalition of Conservative/UKIP govt in near future. Lead by Boris and Farage, both of whom are keen to strip funding from Scotland.

Out of the EU.

More wars.

More disadvantaged and needy dying of starvation.

etc

The consequences of voting No are looking pretty bleak.

Coalition of Conservative/UKIP govt in near future.

Aren't the current Conservative policies just as irrelevant as we're told the current SNP policies are? Or does hoping for something better only apply in one case (I mean surely Labour have to choose a better leader next time, don't they?)

More disadvantaged and needy dying of starvation.

I have some disadvantaged friends that I consider countrymen and women in Surrey. I am still unsure how voting Yes helps them?

The Orange Order are idiots but remember they are no greater in number than those with equally bigoted views that will vote Yes. Religious bigots are still our countrymen and women. They are not likely to leave whatever the result, and they can't be kicked out whatever the result. Sensible people will have to find a way to reconcile this and find a sensible solution to end religious bigotry whatever the result.

The Flying Ox - Member
That's an awfully precise crystal ball you have there. Care to enlighten us on exactly how it'll be with a Yes vote?...

Hopefully not a crystal ball. We're being asked to be precise with the possible uncertainties of a Yes vote, I'm simply pointing out possible scenarios of a No vote (and I fervently hope I'm wrong on that).

I will make a prediction though. The UK economy will go down the gurgler again soon. The debt levels are through the roof which makes the country very vulnerable to the slightest financial sneeze. There will be high interest rates. If you have a mortgage, it would be wise to be conservative.

Come back and say nyah nyah nyah in a year's time if I'm wrong. 🙂

You may be better sticking with an independent Scotland.

Going to laugh my bollocks off watching Scotland leave, followed by us leaving the EU. We're going to be the laughing stock of the world. We're going to be a smaller country, with an even smaller military, who's economy is going to tank when London becomes unattractive to the financial industry. It's going to be fun watching the little Englanders boil over as we become resigned to complete mediocrity on their watch.

Well done Cameron, this will be a brilliantly fitting end to your career! It's going to be an interesting decade watching the condems/ukip **** the country up even more than Labour did.

I just wonder how many other people are voting No because they don't know enough about it as opposed to making an educated choice.

Yes right!!! There is only one set of augments that requires education to be left on the shelf.

A few interesting articles in tomorrow's FT including various BT option including a Quebec style love bomb - reminds me of parent who think love is giving a spoilt child all the chocolate that being demanded. That not love that's just crap parenting. The yS candy floss-enduced sickness will be particularly virulent. Shame that so many look like being caught in the splashes.

athgray - Member
I have some disadvantaged friends that I consider countrymen and women in Surrey. I am still unsure how voting Yes helps them?

The Orange Order are idiots but remember they are no greater in number than those with equally bigoted views that will vote Yes. Religious bigots are still our countrymen and women...

Charity begins at home. Once we have sorted out our problems we can send aid to England if you like.

I have no objection to the local Orange Order. They are voters too. I may not like them, but they are part of the process. This is democracy.

Bringing in the storm troops from NI is intended to be inflammatory, and that is a different thing. They are hoping to provoke the violence that they had expected to see by now.

Tom_W1987 - Member
...It's going to be fun watching the little Englanders boil over as we become resigned to complete mediocrity on their watch.

On the contrary, I wish them well. I'm hoping they will have a democratic revolution too and start working from their real position in the world instead of the delusion of imperial greatness.*

Just stopping spending money projecting military power overseas may enable them to feed their poor and hungry.

*This was pointed out by one of the great English Tory intellects (Enoch Powell) after the Suez crisis.

may enable them to feed their poor and hungry.

That's the funniest thing I've ever heard, they'll spend it on arming the police and beating the shit out of the poor.

If you are using the pound and our economy goes, then I hate to tell you this, but you will all be in as deep crap as we will.
Personally I would rather be in a country of 50 million + than in a little country with limited control over my currency (applies with currency union, using the pound or joining the euro)

6 more months of work and I've got enough points to get into Canada, the idea is looking pretty attractive now.

Sorry fella, but why would you even wonder about that.
Canada is awesome, I would move there but their biotech industry is all on the Quebec side and I want to live in BC

grahamt1980 - Member
If you are using the pound and our economy goes, then I hate to tell you this, but you will all be in as deep crap as we will...

We'll have the flexibility to change that, so it will be a hiccup, not a disaster.

I'm particularly keen to know how the markets will react to the "it's not our debt" stance, and what that will do to Scotland's cost of borrowing. You know, the borrowing needed to patch up the £15 billion+ hole in Scotland's budget given that all the oil money is going to be used to create a sovereign wealth fund instead of paying for public services.

This is what I mean about facts - it appears that very little of the debate has been around measureable/forecastable figures (which Scotland can hold Salmond to if he doesn't deliver)...

And as Epicyclo says, UK economic growth could well fall away (ITEM Club forecast is for lower growth next year than this in any case) - and referencing Tom's point about RestofUK losing influence - a split [i]could[/i] lead us all into outright recession if the markets and foreign investors think UK's in long term decline as a result.

Worth reading this: some money's already leaving Scotland in anticipation of a split. For e.g. if there's a 'yes' vote Standard Life and RBS walking away - taking their jobs and their corporation taxes with them... (most likely to London, further increasing inequality across UK).

[url= http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21615593-scottish-referendum-nears-capital-takes-fright-case-jitters ]Scottish Finance, a case of the jitters[/url]

Epicyclo.
Fair enough, so the financial markets go belly up, where do you turn?
Own currency, the Euro.
To be honest at the moment the entire financial system is FUBAR, so when one big economy goes, the whole lot will take a major hit.
I hope like hell it doesn't happen but something nasty will.
For what its worth, I really don't mind if scotland chose to go their own way, thats your choice.
I would prefer to see scotland stay part of the UK, but you can at least choose. Just hope it works out well for everyone, but short term the only people who will win are the lawyers.

Canada is awesome, I would move there but their biotech industry is all on the Quebec side and I want to live in BC

Aaaand that's why I might try and PhD in Vancouver, might then be able to get a postdoc there. There are some biotech industry jobs kicking around in vancouver as well.

Awesome plan, go for it.
Vancouver and BC are just amazing.
Would love my company to set up out there.
Sadly no hope of that

Those who forget the lessons of history and doomed to repeat then. From the last time lies and deceit were used to hoodwink the population

Even Hattersley, who so sharply condemned Heath’s double-dealing, has offered his own mea culpa: [b]What we did throughout all those years, all the Europeans, was say, let’s not risk trying to make fundamental changes by telling the whole truth, let’s do it through public relations rather than real proselytising… spin the argument rather than expose the argument[/b]. Not only was it wrong for us to deal superficially with what Europe involved, but we’ve paid the price for it ever since… Joining the European Community did involve significant loss of sovereignty but by telling the British people that was not involved, I think the rest of the argument was prejudiced for the next twenty or thirty years.24 At best the pro-Europeans were coy about sovereignty and at worst they were downright deceptive. [b]It would come back to haunt them by contributing to public mistrust and, eventually, outright hostility [/b]to further European integration, even where logic suggested that European countries were better off cooperating.

Different context re direction of sovereignty but same means to fool the population. All that is required now is the hand of Murdoch.....oh wait a minute....

Awesome plan, go for it.
Vancouver and BC are just amazing.
Would love my company to set up out there.
Sadly no hope of that

Pretty sure you could find a job there if you looked long and hard enough. I seem to remember the easy one for me would be to go over there and sit their hospital lab tech professional exams as they are in short supply, automatic visa entry with no job offer then. I reckon I could do that for a few years before getting bored whilst I was kicking around looking for more research oriented posts.

Epicyclo.
Fair enough, so the financial markets go belly up, where do you turn?
Own currency, the Euro.
To be honest at the moment the entire financial system is FUBAR, so when one big economy goes, the whole lot will take a major hit...

I'd prefer to see Scotland with its own currency or the Euro.

It's hard to know what to do if the world economy takes a dive, but regardless of how bad things are, there's still opportunities. It's just having the ability to recognise them when they happen. I like to say the opportunity of a lifetime happens every 3 months.

The problem of the 'what about the facts' question is, I think, summed up in this by Alex Massie:
[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/come-in-britain-your-time-is-up/ ]Facts vs An Idea[/url]

Summary: You can't beat an idea/dream with facts - fight it with another idea/dream.

Charity begins at home. Once we have sorted out our problems we can send aid to England if you like.

You miss the point like most Yes voters I speak to. The term "home" you refer to can mean many things to different people. It is very subjective.

More disadvantaged and needy dying of starvation.

Really? Maybe not starving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_in_the_United_Kingdom#21st_Century

I'd prefer to see Scotland with its own currency or the Euro.

Euro area currently in worse state than UK and deflation looking increasingly likely...

I'd prefer to see Scotland with its own currency or the Euro.

Euro area currently in worse state than UK and deflation looking increasingly likely...

Summary: You can't beat an idea/dream with facts - fight it with another idea/dream.

Is the modern political narrative confirmed to be on Friday night - a flawed philosophy in my view as the Euro project shows. It is an endictment on the modern political process and this is seen a progress that will somehow deliver a better society.

The world of candy floss dreams....

This advice is almost as bad as the advice given to GO about his hair. 😉 is it a rug?

The consequences of voting No are looking pretty bleak.

Coalition of Conservative/UKIP govt in near future. Lead by Boris and Farage, both of whom are keen to strip funding from Scotland.

Out of the EU.

More wars.

More disadvantaged and needy dying of starvation.

etc

If we stay in the Union we have no control over that happening. Better to be in control of our own destiny even if it's tougher than it should have been.

project feart, go for it!