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No Devo Max on the ballot paper was his decision....
But the SNP's mandate, as per the 2011 manifesto, was for an independence referendum, not one on further devolution.
You remember that word? Mandate?
Mandate, mandate, mandate, mandate!
Alex is so keen on using it currently that its a shame to forget what he went to the polls offering you in order to get elected...
😆
. I rather think he didn't and actually painted Cameron into a bit of a corner in a way that he had to refuse to offer it.
So not really Cameron's fault then?
.... Oh how funny it will be when that backfires.
I fail to see anything funny about the result however it goes.
Mandate, mandate, mandate, mandate!
No mandate didn't seem to stop the tories now did it?
I think the Bettertogether side rejected the second question/ Devo max option as they believe that would require a second referendum in England Wales and Northern Ireland
[url= http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28996005 ]http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28996005[/url]
For a bit of light relief, I did find this funny. Puns come thick and fast. Shakespeare would be proud.
athgray - Member
Would either of you have liked devo max on the ballot paper?
Can't speak for them, but I would have preferred something along those lines.
I think the UK needs restructured with the removal of the top layer and more decentralised power. From what I can see the North of England is in a similar position to Scotland.
Not an option offered though, so we'll take what we can get and work from there.
Hopefully the ripples caused by an independent Scotland will invigorate democracy in the rest of the UK, but how you handle that is up to you lot.
At least you will have learnt how the establishment uses the tools of a controlled media with breathtaking dishonesty, and the benefits of using social media to counter it - that's if they don't find a way to censor the internet citing paedophilia or terrorist concerns.
If Scotland wins the Referendum, it's FaceBook we have to thank...
more decentralised power
Serious question here
Given the revelations over the indifference shown by locally elected officials over a long period in Rotherham that have hit the headlines this week (and apparently SOS are due to reveal a similar story in Glasgow in tomorrows paper) do you think that further decentralisation is perhaps not just a panacea, but a thoroughly dangerous move? (I make this comment not just referring to Scotland, but the wider context too)
ninfan - Member
...do you think that further decentralisation is perhaps not just a panacea, but a thoroughly dangerous move?
Democracy is an imperfect tool.
Rotherham looks to me like a failure of administration, showing the lack of a powerful and objective independent audit process happening as a matter of routine.
There should be no hiding place for corruption, and entrenched maladministration is a form of corruption. (That's IMO, of course)
Can't speak for them, but I would have preferred something along those lines.
You have previously talked about the neverending cause for independence. Excuse me for saying I don't believe you.
If Scotland wins the Referendum
Not quite sure what you mean by this????
citing paedophilia
The only person that has been citing paedophilia is you. You described Westminster as a collection of slimebuckets previously harbouring paedophiles, currently harbouring paedophiles, and will continue to harbour paedophiles unless Scotland gets independence.
it's FaceBook we have to thank..
I prefer to put my faith in more than social media.
So, what we'll get with a no vote then?
Not at all. With a no vote Scotland gets a say in decisions which affect the currency and their interests have to be taken into account. Not the case if you vote yes.
Epicyclo - yes, however it certainly opens serious questions about the system of local government and locally elected officials having oversight over, for example, child protection issues and police funding - the figures coming back like Lancashire having in the order of 100 recent prosecutions and South Yorkshire having none, say that something must be wrong with the system as it is.
That type of devolved power isn't doing anyone any good!
Given the whole farce of the Dame Butler Sloss inquiry into the alleged paedophile ring at Westminster decentralisation of power doesnt seem any more dangerous than the current situation, and could be a whole lot better with more people feeling their vote matters, their opinions are listened to and people taking clear responsibility for what happens in their area.
athgray - Member
You have previously talked about the neverending cause for independence. Excuse me for saying I don't believe you.
That's fine, but if you care to look through my previous posts, you'll see that I have several times stated a preference for a federated UK, in which each part had its powers fixed and not removable by the federation, ie the Federation derives its powers from its constituent parts and not the other way round.
I also think Scotland is quite capable of going it alone, in or out of the EU, NATO etc, and it is quite an exciting prospect, and more attractive the closer it gets.
With a no vote Scotland gets a say in decisions which affect the currency and their interests have to be taken into account.
You do know that the festival is over in Edinburgh. Just the fireworks to come....
Democracy is an imperfect tool.
Trouble, it usually comes on two legs.
I prefer to put my faith in more than social media.
Agreed. Although there's no denying the power of social media in spreading ideas, truth, and unfortunately lies. That's not just a reference to the referendum. The number of people I see popping up on my newsfeed that believe any old tripe and don't bother trying verifying it, is frankly worrying.
As good as social media is for spreading ideas and movements, it's still deeply flawed. The argument for traditional news media is that they act as gatekeepers, verifying before publishing. That falls down of course when news providers are in favour on one goal or another.
Although I can't see Scotland turning out like some of the other examples of political change from the past couple of years which have been at least in part, fuelled by social media.
That's the big problem, though - we don't have an impartial and balanced mainstream media. Social media has big flaws, but it is fantastic at telling the stories the mainstream media don't want to tell.
For example an official No campaign person was arrested yesterday for assaulting a female Yes supporter - no mainstream sources have covered it yet. It was a kick to the stomach, obviously less serious than an egg.
I trust social media far more than I trust mainstream media. Far fewer vested interests.
.....if Scotland wins the Referendum
If Scotland is the only country voting, how can it lose?
I thought it was "yes" Scots vs "no" Scots, not Scotland vs the other 3 countries in the Union.
I thought it was "yes" Scots vs "no" Scots
Well, and the Labour activists bussed up from down south and paid £25 per day to knock on doors for Better Together 😉
I trust social media far more than I trust mainstream media. Far fewer vested interests.
There's no shortage of vested interests in social media. It's the individual scale that provides the biggest difference.
Yep, the if Scotland wins the referendum comment was very telling - explains a lot. How about the >50% who would view that as a bad result?
But to swallow much of the yS BS you have to be very blinkered. But at least someone has asked the DO a straight question on the currency in a Radio Scoltand phone in - so First Minister, is a currency an asset (or simply a means of exchange)?
To which - The First Minister replied: “[b]We haven’t argued it’s the currency that’s the asset, [/b]it’s the financial assets of the United Kingdom.”
Pull the other one Alex, but at least inside the last 19 days you can now be honesf about the currency. That would be a refreshing change and only what we deserve on such an important issue.
That's the big problem, though - we don't have an impartial and balanced mainstream media.
The Beeb is know globally for its impartiality and lack of balance. No wonder is has such little respect around the world.
Social media has big flaws, but it is fantastic at telling stories that honest people don't want to tell.
FTFY!
It wasn't my comment, but I don't have a problem saying I think Scotland will lose out if the vote is No.
Because that's exactly what lots of politicians down south are saying - there will be a cut or complete removal of the Barnett formula, and there are many more austerity cuts to come.
The Beeb is know globally for its impartiality and lack of balance. No wonder is has such little respect around the world.
BBC Scotland is facing an existential threat, of course it can't be impartial about its own breakup - independent academic studies have shown how impartial it is on the subject.
I think the UK needs restructured with the removal of the top layer and more decentralised power. From what I can see the North of England is in a similar position to Scotland.
I agree completely, but if you vote yes this will never ever happen. If you vote no, then then everyone can work on getting devo max for Scotland and the whole UK.
From this point of view (pragmatic, sensible and productive IMO) yes is the wrong vote.
Scotland will have to address it's fiscal issues whatever the vote Ben. One way is much easier and less costly that the other. For the DO to claim otherwise just shows that he is indeed deceitful.
It's amazing that people can swallow the idea that the DO can deliver something/everything that no other nation/political party can deliver. The fairy tale re-writing of basic truisms is startling.
I agree completely, but if you vote yes this will never ever happen. If you vote no, then then everyone can work on getting devo max for Scotland and the whole UK.
Problem is that no political parties are promising that. Or anything like that. We can't work on fixing the system when the system isn't allowing any options for change. Devo Max is unfair on the rest of the UK, and no party is promising anything near Devo Max, let alone a federal system of government and proper reform of Westminster.
So how do we work on it? Launch a new political party? Try to change the Labour Party? It's just not going to happen.
Problem is that no political parties are promising that
Of course they aren't now, the nats want full independence so they won't talk about a compromise. However they surely must do after a no vote - what else would they do? Go quiet and sulk?
Devo Max is unfair on the rest of the UK
Unless it includes Wales, the North etc. If the vote is no, there must be a discussion on this. The debate has raised a lot of issues, they won't just go away.
However if the vote is yes, the Welsh and Northerners will get sweet FA.
Scotland will have to address it's fiscal issues whatever the vote Ben.
Every country has fiscal issues, but an independent a Scotland would be in better shape than it would be as part of the UK - Scotland has been a net contributor to the Union, contributing more than we get back for the past 30+ years, and without expensive projects like Trident and HS2 to pay for we'll be even better off.
I think there may well be a few difficult years of transition, but in the long run we'll be fine.
Of course they aren't now, the nats want full independence so they won't talk about a compromise. However they surely must do after a no vote - what else would they do? Go quiet and sulk?
Who? After a No vote, Westminster will immediately lose all interest in Scotland, and the focus will turn to the 2015 election - where Labour will probably lose to a Tory/UKIP coalition or something equally unpleasant. None of the Westminster parties are showing even the slightest interest in changing the Westminster system - why should they, it works for them - and a relatively small number of Scots deciding to stay in the Union won't change that.
Ben see my edit.
Yes, but they don't then lie to their people about being able to cut taxes and raise spending etc. It's utter hogwash. As it's most of the fairer society smokescreen. There is about as much truth in most if this as there is in arguing that a haggis is a wee beastie that runs round the glens.
But there will be two major disappointments for yS - either most Scots will (remain) be canny enough to vote for what is in their best interests; or independence (sic) proves to be very different from what is currently being promised. No one delivers fairy tales in the real world. The reality will be quite harder and accompanied by high levels of totally unnecessary uncertainty. All for the DOs new throne and ego. Bizarre.
In lighter news, turns out that a model in a Better Together leaflet is voting Yes 😀
Ben see my edit.
Yes - thing is, they will go away. Only reason these things are being discussed now is the threat of the breakup of the union. With that back in its box, there will be no motivation for any of the Westminster parties to look at the issues.
So Ben is you believe that rUK/Westminster will have zero interest in Scotland going forward why on earth are you voting for a system where the same people will be settling you main policies? That can only be foolhardy to delegate such powers to foreign and disinterested parties. You guys really have to make your minds up with less than 20 days....
you believe that rUK/Westminster will have zero interest in Scotland going forward
THM, this raises a very good point actually,
Its a strange dichotomy indeed that according to the nationalists, if we stay together as a union, Westminster has no interest in ensuring a future functioning and successful Scotland...
whilst at the same time they are also telling us that if we separate, one of the key reasons Westminister will agree to a Currency Union is the importance to the rUK of a functioning and successful Scotland as a neighbour 😆
So Ben is you believe that rUK/Westminster will have zero interest in Scotland going forward why on earth are you voting for a system where the same people will be settling you main policies? That can only be foolhardy to delegate such powers to foreign and disinterested parties. You guys really have to make your minds up with less than 20 days....
last time I looked.. Con/Dem were in charge of Westminster and SNP were in charge of Holyrood..... They are hardly the same people...
Only 17 days for you chaps to argue over how many angels fit on a pinhead before we take the pin away... 🙂
With the final run in yS are banking on CU/default on debt and scare stories on NHS. Both lies with the actual spending on private sector spending on NHS north of the border now clarified along with SNP policy to actively encourage private sector participation. The scale of the deceit is truly breathtaking. Lies right at the centre of the final debate.
And these are the people who are going to deliver nirvana?!?
Epic - if only, the nats will carry on whining well after the result on the 19th.
Indeed gav and the Holyrood lot are proposing abdicating even more power to Westminster and even less (ie, no) representation. You couldn't make it up.
SNP policy to actively encourage private sector participation.
Oh really? Wow...
THM, you're as bad as Better Together with your scare mongering pish.
And these are the people who are going to deliver nirvana?!?
You know fine well it's not a vote for the SNP and they'll not be in power forever.
You can say it over and over again, it doesn't make it true. Relardless of the true amount of spending on private services (still less) and how the money is spent (very differently the overall budget is still determined by Westminster.
[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/nhs-expert-only-a-yes-will-save-the-health-service-in-scotland-from-westminster-cuts.25192360 ]Allyson Pollock, professor of public health research and policy at Queen Mary University of London, warned reforms in the NHS south of the Border could result in "serious" consequences for Scotland by translating into reduced funding through the Barnett formula.[/url]
You know fine well it's not a vote for the SNP and they'll not be in power forever.
So where are the policies from the other parties which show us what direction iS will take in the future, which solve all the problems of the SNP policies?
And the most likely alternative is labour who are against independence,
teamhurtmore - Member
And the most likely alternative is labour who are against independence,
It won't be Westminster controlled Labour anymore.