[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

edit: can't be bothered

[b]epicyclo[/b] - Member
Article in the Independent sums it up

EDIT: @epic everything I see and read (not least this currency doscussion and the fact Scotland does not propose to have a central bank of any kind) leads me to believe Scotland will be materially less fiscally responsible and will run a very large budget deficit

konabunny - Member
But bencooper said the closer decisions were to the people, the fairer they are. So Shetland under iScotland is fairer than Shetland under the UK, but Shetland under Shetland would be even fairer.

That's a good point.

After independence, there will be more power devolved to the islands of Scotland so that they derive more benefit from the resources in their area.

If Edinburgh becomes a black hole like London, and ignores the needs or desires of the islands, then the island communities should seek independence.

Scotland's finance minister says no "currency, no debt" (apologies of this has been posted before).

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28943041 ]BBC - Swinney[/url]

I say no debt, no independence.

Salmond might, but that is part of the gamble..might, should, could rather than anything definite!

If left to any of his minions then it will become a disaster in the same way as a lot of other links currently being worked between Scot/Eng that the person on the street has no knowledge of!!

The new Forth bridge is supposedly ontime & on budget unlike Holyrood and the trams. Police Scotland is a mess as is the new education policy, all will be sorted eventually but a lot more could and should have been done. There are a whole raft of day to day issues being ignored and masked by the oil and currency issues.
Regardless of which government we have in place it is down to the civil service to work out the detail. They are only going to get one go at sorting out the parting of the ways...... 🙄

jambalaya - Member
The Yes campaign in Scotland wants to be Scotlands "political elite "

Well, seeing as the Yes campaign consists of around 50% of Scots, that's a lot more equitable than the current situation.

These "fairer" discussions are quite amusing, Scotland will be fairer because all the rich people will live/be tax domiciled elsewhere (Sean Connery, Andy Murray, Stagecoach founders etc)

Trekster - Member
...They are only going to get one go at sorting out the parting of the ways......

True, I'm sure some whopping mistakes will be made by both sides.

But we have the next few hundred years to sort it out.

jambalaya - Member
These "fairer" discussions are quite amusing, Scotland will be fairer because all the rich people will live/be tax domiciled elsewhere (Sean Connery, Andy Murray, Stagecoach founders etc)

Ridiculous, isn't it? So tell us why some rich Scots are not living in the Uk? Who decided that tax policy?

Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?

True, I'm sure some whopping mistakes will be made by both sides.

But we have the next few hundred years to sort it out.

don't remember seeing that on a Yes poster 😉

big_n_daft - Member
don't remember seeing that on a Yes poster

No, it's all got to look like roses, but we know there's a few thistles in there.

We also know you can get rid of thistles and plant roses if it's your own land. Just takes time. 🙂

jambalaya - Member
These "fairer" discussions are quite amusing,

Independence is only the beginning of a fight.

Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?

Yes, that's how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?

Confirmed: iScotland will default on its debt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28943041

Great start!

It's not our debt, the Treasury says so.

Sheesh - look, these are all negotiating positions. No currency union, not taking the debt, they're all posturing before the referendum. After the referendum it'll be discussed sensibly by grown-ups.

teamhurtmore - Member
Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?
Yes, that's how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?

seosamh77 - Member
tbh I agree. independence is only a starting point. If it turns our the same as we have, It'll be a waste of time.
Independence is only the beginning of a fight.

I agree.

Some political parties will be turned on their heads after independence.

I think the LibDems are toast. A double betrayal - being gutless in the coalition and anti independence will cost them.

There's a lot of fury amongst Labour party members about what is seen as a betrayal of the party - in bed with the Tories has never had much appeal.

In the short term the SNP will gain from this, but once the other parties sort themselves out, I believe the SNP will wither on the vine unless they fill the LibDem void.

Strangely the party which will come out the least affected will be the Conservative party. Their voters will have a party that has stuck to its guns and principles, and will probably attract the more right wing SNP supporters, so it may actually grow.

Of course, that is just my opinion. and I could be way out.

futon river crossing - Member
Confirmed: iScotland will default on its debt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28943041

Great start!

To say there would be is just utter bull.

If there's a default it'll be rUK that will be defaulting.

If it's not your debt, how can it a negotiating position? "Listen here, we're not going to pay the debt, that isn't ours anyway, take that"!!!

epicyclo - Member
seosamh77 - Member
tbh I agree. independence is only a starting point. If it turns our the same as we have, It'll be a waste of time.
Independence is only the beginning of a fight.
I agree.

Some political parties will be turned on their heads after independence.

I think the LibDems are toast. A double betrayal - being gutless in the coalition and anti independence will cost them.

There's a lot of fury amongst Labour party members about what is seen as a betrayal of the party - in bed with the Tories has never had much appeal.

In the short term the SNP will gain from this, but once the other parties sort themselves out, I believe the SNP will wither on the vine unless they fill the LibDem void.

Strangely the party which will come out the least affected will be the Conservative party. Their voters will have a party that has stuck to its guns and principles, and will probably attract the more right wing SNP supporters, so it may actually grow.

Of course, that is just my opinion. and I could be way out.

futon river crossing - Member
If it's not your debt, how can it a negotiating position? "Listen here, we're not going to pay the debt, that isn't ours anyway, take that"!!!

To be honest I don't think the no debt thing is a negotiating position on a CU at all, it's just a general overall negotiating position that will be used to gain a share of the assets.

I think the CU position is just public facing politics.

teamhurtmore - Member
'Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?'
Yes, that's how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?

So all the countries in the EU have the same tax regime do they?

After the referendum it'll be discussed sensibly by grown-ups

Firstly I wouldn't assume that the grown ups will have a sensible conversation. Any discussions will make the recent head-2-head discussions look like a quiet chat in the park. Secondly any agreement would need to be ratified by the UK Parliament - and I can already hear the braying from the back benches. I won't comment on the Scottish Parliament - but I will take a wild guess that it won't be much better!

Scottish Labour had to come out as No, firstly because that's whats best for the whole of the UK (and Scotland IMO), secondly because a Yes vote does weaken Labour nationally. Scots voters must understand this so to "finish" the party there for that is a bit short sighted.

I posted before I could see Scotland moving to the right post independence, in the past anti Tory (right) was anti-English/Westminster / pro-independence. If Scotland becomes independent people will be able to vote freely left/centre/right without the anti-English/Westminster factor influencing their vote. The results could surprise many.

The Scottish man in the street view:

As far as the CU is concerned, the Bank of England is the UK govt bank paid for by the citizens of all the countries of the UK.

Scotland is entitled to its share of the bank its taxes have paid for. The BoE issues the currency, ie the £. If we are not getting a share of the joint account, then why should we pay its debts?

Whether that is technically correct, I have no idea, but it is a common perception.

Anyhow, the sun is shining, off for a ride... 🙂

jambalaya - Member
The results could surprise many.

It's a technical default.

Back in Feb, the situation was cleared up about the actual debt. You can't split any debt up, that has always been misleading and would be an actual default. After the DOs stupid comment, HM T cleared this all up. The rUK will service the debt and an iS will compensate for its fair share of the benefits of the debt. The FC has laid this out clearly as has the the BT representatives

The rest is a smokescreen. A useful one given the lack of substance in yS but still a smokescreen.

No see..., I have consistent on this. It helps to understand how it works.

teamhurtmore - Member
It's a technical default.

Back in Feb, the situation was cleared up about the actual debt. You can't split any debt up, that has always been misleading and would be an actual default. After the DOs stupid comment, HM T cleared this all up. The rUK will service the debt and an iS will compensate for its fair share of the benefits of the debt. The FC has laid this out clearly as has the the BT representatives

The rest is a smokescreen. A useful one given the lack of substance in yS but still a smokescreen.

No see..., I have consistent on this. It helps to understand how it works.

You are talking as if these extreme scenarios will happen, they won't.

Scotland will be sterlingized with a share of the assets and the debt(It's the blatantly obvious middle position). The only arguing points there are how much of either, which will not solved on this thread.

So all the countries in the EU have the same tax regime do they?

Do you guys not read the news? No, that's why it doesn't work (among other things) and why Mark Carney explained why it was necessary. Currency unions require (1) conditions from optimum currency area to be met (tick, UK; cross Europe) and (2) monetary and fiscal union.

Europe (to exist) needs to have full fiscal union - that is the lesson of the crisis. The rUK would not be stupid enough to grant a CU without very clear rules over Scottish fiscal policy which as the FT leader states to today, negates the whole point on the referendum.

So we do spin around indeed on the vanity project roundabout.

jambalaya - Member
The Yes campaign in Scotland wants to be Scotlands "political elite "
Well, seeing as the Yes campaign consists of around 50% of Scots, that's a lot more equitable than the current situation.

You can stick you head in the sand if you want (and salmond hopes you do) but a currency has not been, is not, and cannot be an asset. It's BS designed to deceive. And you seem to have fallen for it hook line and sinker. The DO will be delighted.

Your last point doesn't make sense I'm afraid. Sterlingisation is the extreme version where Scotland uses the £ outside any formal arrangement. So the rest of the sentance is irrelevant.

konabunny - Member
jambalaya - Member
The Yes campaign in Scotland wants to be Scotlands "political elite "
Well, seeing as the Yes campaign consists of around 50% of Scots, that's a lot more equitable than the current situation.

The Yes campaign isn't 50% of Scots or anything like it. It's a small group of people with whom possibly around 50% of the electorate agree.

Is there a legal definition, to cut through all the BS?

teamhurtmore - Member
You can stick you head in the sand if you want (and salmond hopes you do) but a currency has not been, is not, and cannot be an asset. It's BS designed to deceive. And you seem to have fallen for it hook line and sinker. The DO will be delighted.

Your last point doesn't make sense I'm afraid. Sterlingisation is the extreme version where Scotland uses the £ outside any formal arrangement. So the rest of the sentance is irrelevant.

Why are you campaigning on here? No-one is moving from their positions. You aren't convincing anyone.

Sterlingisation may not be ideal, but it's what will happen and will be made to work.

The rUK would not be stupid enough to grant a CU without very clear rules over Scottish fiscal policy which as the FT leader states to today, negates the whole point on the referendum.

A CU would also mean that every time something bad happened to the Scottish economy, the rUK would be blamed by Scots politicians and media. Being hectored by Alex Salmond for not doing enough for Scotland [b]post[/b] independence could get incredibly trying.

Scottish Labour had to come out as No, firstly because that's whats best for the whole of the UK (and Scotland IMO), secondly because a Yes vote does weaken Labour nationally.

Scottish Labour have a visceral hatred for the SNP, and Alex Salmond in particular - Labour has run Scotland, from the MPs down to local councils, as a one-party state for decades and they resent anyone else taking "their" votes.

It's not about what's best for the UK, it's not about what's best for Scotland, it's about what's best for the Labour Party.

Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?

What I suspect is that an independent Scotland will follow similar tax policies to countries like Ireland and Luxembourg, ie very low business tax rates to attract/retain businesses. Given the spending desires of the SNP this will mean higher taxes elsewhere, the SNP will tell you it will be raised from all these extra oil/gas fields which will magically appear but the fact is it will have to be raised from personal taxation/employment taxes. As Scotland will be fairer the "rich" will make up the shortfall, more so than in the UK where the top 1% pay 30% of the taxes, so I guess Scotland will go for 40% or 50% I hope Sean Connery et al are planning on coming back. Of course not paying for Trident is going to make every Scot rich.

edit: Also as Scotland won't know what currency its going to use I don't see how the government will be able to borrow any money, not least if it walks away from its share of the UK government debt, so in that case taxes will have to be even higher as Darling pointed out countries like Panama have to run a budget surplus. As the UK doesn't run a surplus Scottish taxes will have to be higher and/or spending lower than the UK.

No it won't because that is the worst case for Scotland as the YS team have shown - remember they dismissed it in one paragraph. It's that stupid.

Why is anyone on this thread then? Bizarre comment. I can see why you talked about spinning, your comments seem all over the place.

Seems like you need to read what the FC actually said about sterlingisation and understand what it is.

In the end though you are correct. No one is moving (well not enough anyway) so the vanity project will be parked where it belongs come 19th. Scots are far too canny (well enough are anyway) to know what is in their best interests.

jambalaya - Member
Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?

@epic, we can't be sure as no one has told us.
What I suspect is that an independent Scotland will follow similar tax policies to countries like Ireland and Luxembourg, ie very low business tax rates to attract/retain businesses. Given the spending desires of the SNP this will mean higher taxes elsewhere, the SNP will tell you it will be raised from all these extra oil/gas fields which will magically appear but the fact is it will have to be raised from personal taxation/employment taxes. As Scotland will be fairer the "rich" will make up the shortfall, more so than in the UK where the top 1% pay 30% of the taxes, so I guess Scotland will go for 40% or 50% I hope Sean Connery et al are planning on coming back. Of course not paying for Trident is going to make every Scot rich.

Big assumption.

Labour has run Scotland, from the MPs down to local councils, as a one-party state for decades

[img] [/img]

A snapshot of a one party state.

@seosamh - yes I had to make some assumptions to answer the question, all speculation of course. Like many have to around this referendum not least those with a vote.

Ahahaha ahahahahaha ahahahahaha ahahahahaha.

I always wonder what motivates someone to write "hahaha" - anyway, glad I've amused you, now go back and look at historical results:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland

I always wonder what motivates someone to write "hahaha"

Your own Wikipedia link shows that Labour's share of the vote peaked at 49.9% in 1966. It got about 60% of the seats. That's the high water mark - everything else is lower.

In other words, very far from a

one party state

Ahahahahaha ahahahahhhha ahahahahaha hahahahahahaha 😆 😆

jambalaya - Member
@seosamh - yes I had to make some assumptions to answer the question, all speculation of course. Like many have to around this referendum not least those with a vote.

Look at the general election results - you have to go back to 1964 to find an election where Labour didn't get more than twice as many seats as the next party.

Same with Scottish local elections - the SNP's massive rise in the last decade excluded, Labour usually has more than double the number of seats of the next party.

Nice snapshot Konabunny I wonder which party is doing best according to your graphic?
Also does the graphic depict a result which was considered remarkable at the time? If so why was it considered remarkable?