[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

So if the budget gets reduced in England due to privatisation

You believe claims that privatisation in healthcare reduces costs ? Why ?

Increased private sector involvement in the NHS has been going on years, right back to the days of New Labour (it doubled in their last 4 years in power), yet during that period the NHS budget hasn't fallen, in fact it has increased.

With that in mind further private sector involvement in the English and Welsh NHS should be good news for Scotland.

ernie_lynch - Member
So if the budget gets reduced in England due to privatisation
You believe claims that privatisation in healthcare reduces costs ? Why ?

You believe claims that privatisation in healthcare reduces costs ? Why ?

How do private companies win contracts? By having nicer logos? By treating their staff better? No, they win contracts by being cheaper.

Not seen the thing about Wall St banks making contingency plans to move from the UK to Ireland in case the UK leaves the EU? That's an order of magnitude bigger than banks maybe leaving Scotland.

being outside EU regulation would probably increase the attractiveness of rUK as a financial centre

but EU exit is unlikely, and if we did we would very likely remain part of the EEA in any case

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11040484/EU-exit-could-force-Wall-Street-banks-to-desert-Britain.html

http://rt.com/uk/181340-us-banks-desert-britain/

http://www.dw.de/us-banks-said-to-weigh-uk-exit-if-britain-leaves-eu/a-17860190

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/17/uk-britain-eu-banks-idUKKBN0GH0PX20140817

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So can we say the lovebombing is over now?

I believe the ultimate target is to dismantle the free at the point of use and start charging.

Well I can't argue with that because you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe. And you know better than I do what you believe.

I could say that I believe the ultimate goal of Alex Salmond is to declare himself Emperor of Scotland and rule by decree.

But let's stick with known facts.

I believe the ultimate target is to dismantle free at the point of use and start charging and get people buying up insurance policies creating a 2 tier system. Maybe not from labour but from the Tories, most definitely.

very unlikely, too many groups in society (including me) would never vote for it.

the financial efficiency advantages of a free at point of use system are enormous when looked at a society level, the issue is managing the costs whilst improving outcomes especially when the PFI bubble really starts to bite

bencooper - Member

How do private companies win contracts? By having nicer logos? By treating their staff better? No, they win contracts by being cheaper.

Which must mean that the US spends a lot less on healthcare than us then. So why don't they ?

BTW, do you know if many of these so-called lefties who are backing YS also agree with you that privatisation reduces costs ?

Well quite a few (lefties) are now fans of the Adam Smith Institute Ernie, so god know where they will end up by the end of all this

They want to start charging people for drink related injuries.
That would be the thin end of the wedge.
Next it would be smoking related illnesses.
Then it will be sports related, what's that, you fell of your bike while hammering it down a rocky descent breaking your clavicle , that was a stupid thing to do. Out comes the big self inflicted rubber stamp and credit card reader.

And before you know it unless you are struck by lightning while sat in a comfy chair in your living room whilst wearing thick socks and listening to whale song you will find your self some how responsible and reaching for your bank card.

So can we say the lovebombing is over now?

I'll give you a hug when I'm next up in Scotland 😀

I think some people in rUK want the Union to continue and are happy for more devolution within the UK

I also think some people think that if you don't want to be part of the club then go but don't expect any favours, and there are shades of grey in between

I'm in the former group until you vote Yes then I'm in the latter

breaking the Union will change many things that make the UK a great place to be, changes to institutions will be significant and we will both be diminished. What I'm not going to support is in addition to the costs of separation to rUK is cough up any more money or any sovereignty to give you independence "lite"

but at least my kids can have a University education without tuition fees if you vote Yes so it's not all bad 😉

ernie_lynch - Member

But let's stick with known facts.

I won't need to use the NHS much in the next 30 years, touch wood. So facts as they current are are fairly irrelevant to me.

At the moment though my experience of the Scottish NHS throw family member is very positive. I see no need to turn it into a market.

Must admit I'm quite surprised at your approval of the marketisation of the NHS. Always had you down more to the left.

So facts as they current are are fairly irrelevant to me.

So let's talk about hypotheticals instead ?

Must admit I'm quite surprised at your approval of the market is at I on of the NHS.

🙄

vote "yes" and you wont get Eastenders.... got to be a vote winner

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11044573/Lord-Birt-Independent-Scotlands-viewers-must-pay-extra-for-BBC.html

teamhurtmore - Member

NW nothing fibbing about the election results at all.

JY showed you the numbers and you've made no attempt to rebut. They simply don't say what you claimed. I could accept that as a mistake at the time but to maintain it now is clearly dishonest.

seosamh77 - Member
...I won't need to use the NHS much in the next 30 years, touch wood. So facts as they current are are fairly irrelevant to me...

If you have parents they may be.

Check out the costs of aged care and also the costs of dying of something like cancer in a privatised system.

Or a child needing a heart operation.

If you have parents they may be.

Check out the costs of aged care and also the costs of dying of something like cancer in a privatised system.

NW - I just ignore trolls*. There are plenty of articles showing what I said from across the political spectrum. The democracy deficit is another myth.

* TBF, didn't even bother to read, so not sure what was said to rebut anyway and have no interest.

The ironical thing is that in one case where Scotland voted labour and got Tory was dear Maggie and now they are copying RW policies that would make even her blush. Still that was a good example of how being exposed to NS Oil can be a double edged sword. But at least there was a simple hate figure to blame instead. Nothing new there.

Oh good, we're back to the BBC scare story - apparently we'll have to pay for BBC shows that we currently get for free 🙄

Yet again deliberately confusing matters. The currency is not an asset to be shared, never has been ,

Thanks for the troll claim for using actual facts against your unevidenced claims 🙄 Really when all you have left is pathetic name calling when presented with facts- really why not counter the actual election results and prove your claim to be true. Have you noticed how many posters on the last few pages have mentioned your MO , your posts and content? - how many have criticised mine?You are getting a lot of trolling here - well either that or you are telling porkies in your posts. Its not hard to work out which it is.

NW nothing fibbing about the election results at all. The democratic deficit is another misrepresentation used by yS.

Will someone just ask him for the data [ third time he has made the claim with no evidence at all to support it - the thing he accuses AS of doing] then re post what I showed. We all know its is a BS claim

There are plenty of articles showing what I said from across the political spectrum. The democracy deficit is another myth

teamhurtmore - Member

* TBF, didn't even bother to read, so not sure what was said to rebut anyway and have no interest.

I think I'll use that policy- anyone that provides hard facts that contradict my bullshit, I'll just declare a troll and not bother to read it and therefore I will be right. FFS.

Noam Chomsky backing Scottish independence:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-noam-chomsky-backing-yes-1-3387174

The i/Independent this morning publishes a poll conducted in England by a Welsh academic, purporting to shoe that only 19% of English people want Scotland to leave the Union amongst other points.
The important point though, is the majority view that should Independence happen, then Currency Union is strongly opposed by the people in this survey (haven't got my copy to hand, will show actual figures later).
For me personally, these figures are encouraging as i suspect it will help to drive up the yS vote. As i believe Independence is going to happen at some point anyway its best that it happens sooner rather than later.
I am puzzled though as to why the majority of yS supporters think politicians are lying about CU, when this poll shows that the largest electorate in the UK is strongly opposed to that course of action?
Why is it acceptable for Scots to want to protect their interests, but if the rest of us wish to do the same its 'bullying' ?

Oh good, we're back to the BBC scare story

I would have thought not getting Eastenders was a real bonus......being able to pick and choose will mean not funding a lot of the dross hence why the Beeb grandee's are so unhappy at the likely budget cut. You will be able to put the money into "Clydesiders" or similar

The "scare story" is that a Yes vote will mean the end of the licence fee in it's current form in rUK and a different model will need to be created to enable access for rUK and non-rUK residents. Some may argue that it's going to happen anyway but a Yes vote makes it a near certainty

you may get a World Service broadcast though 😉

muddydwarf - Member

I am puzzled though as to why the majority of yS supporters think politicians are lying about CU, when this poll shows that the largest electorate in the UK is strongly opposed to that course of action?

The 3 questions there are why, how informed it is, and how strongly. Or to put it another way, what was the english electorate's opinion on currency union, before westminster and the media started telling everyone it was a bad idea. And, you have a strong majority, but how much do they actually care? My nonscientific survey of a dozen or so english people who're against currency union revealed none of them really knew what it was, no idea how representative that may be of course.

And its almost universally accepted that the NHS will be privatised in England in the not too distant future.

With regards to the NHS an independent Scotland will lose many of the benefits of scale the UK NHS enjoys, the service will be more costly to provide with a higher bureaucratic overhead.

@Nothwind, I would say most of us in the UK thought currency Union was a bad idea as soon as we heard about it, nothing to do with Westminster. If Scotland votes for independence I hope all the UK parties re-assert their position on currency union and other Scottish issues so we can make sure we vote for the party at the UK general election which stands for the values we believe in. If necessary I would be very happy to have a referendum on the issues.

The 3 questions there are why,

how informed it is,

and how strongly

The currency costs argument for rUK is minor: I went to the North Devon Agricultural Show on holiday this year and you could get get in paying in Euro's, in pre Euro europe Dutch/ German currency was interchangeable at the border. If a small county show can get it's head around it I'm sure the big boys can

bencooper - Member
Oh good, we're back to the NHS scare story - apparently we'll have to pay for NHS treatment that we currently get for free

Or would you call that 'project fear'? 😉

Why is it acceptable for Scots to want to protect their interests, but if the rest of us wish to do the same its 'bullying' ?

I think it's the total refusal to even negotiate on the matter that's poorly received. Even the most adamant voices on here point out that iScotland would never sign up to the term that would need to put down for it to be acceptable to rUK, but we'll never find out. The stance of not discussing what will happen after a vote, but only when it suits us is in bad faith and lot of people don't like it.

I would say most of us in the UK thought currency Union was a bad idea as soon as we heard about it, nothing to do with Westminster.

Anecdotally, most folk I know living in England want as few barriers as possible so were quite happy at the idea of the CU. I've not asked them about it again recently but it certainly wasn't as clear cut as you'd seem to think.

Or to put it another way, what was the english electorate's opinion on currency union, before westminster and the media started telling everyone it was a bad idea.

This would be interesting to know.

jambalaya - there is no UK NHS

I think it's the total refusal to even negotiate on the matter that's poorly received. Even the most adamant voices on here point out that iScotland would never sign up to the term that would need to put down for it to be acceptable to rUK, but we'll never find out. The stance of not discussing what will happen after a vote, but only when it suits us is in bad faith and lot of people don't like it.

as soon as Mark Carney stated that currency union requires the ceding of sovreignty it was a dead duck.

The whole premise of the independence vote is that Scotland has a different political direction than rUK and different spending and taxation priorities. The whole essence of the Yes campaign is the desire to create a divergent economy to that in rUK

you can't have that and a successful currency Union, and rUK isn't going to risk the stability of the pound for the convenience of not having to have a few Euro's/tartan pounds in your pocket

A hardening of English attitudes

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/20/scottish-independence-referendum-english-attitudes

big_n_daft - Member

you cede sovreignty in a currency union, decisions on monetary policy are directly influenced by a separate state,

You should take that one up with the No campaign tbh, they insist Scotland would be giving up all influence on monetary policy...

muddydwarf - Member

I am puzzled though as to why the majority of yS supporters think politicians are lying about CU, when this poll shows that the largest electorate in the UK is strongly opposed to that course of action?
Why is it acceptable for Scots to want to protect their interests, but if the rest of us wish to do the same its 'bullying' ?

jambalaya - Member
And its almost universally accepted that the NHS will be privatised in England in the not too distant future.

Quite simply not true. It isn't going to be privatised and its not universally accepted. The NHS does many things very well but it does many things very poorly and very inefficiently. The French service isn't free at the point of use, do we say that is a privatised service ?
With regards to the NHS an independent Scotland will lose many of the benefits of scale the UK NHS enjoys, the service will be more costly to provide with a higher bureaucratic overhead.

The truth of it wasn't really my point, I'm not particularly qualified to comment.

The point was about the perception.

that's the problem with this particular debate, it's overly concerned with facts and has very little concern with the emotion.

A hardening of English attitudes

I'm not really surprised. Most of the time, for most English people, Scotland is an irrelevance - we're this wee country up North which makes whisky and fried Mars bars.

But now the English media is filled with stories about Scotland, and lots of it is about how Scotland is richer than the rest of the UK, has more spending per head, and wants to leave the UK but wants to keep the Queen, the BBC and the Pound.

Or to put it another way, what was the english electorate's opinion on currency union, before westminster and the media started telling everyone it was a bad idea.

**** 'em , it's our ball and we are taking it home.

If you don't want to be friends anymore get your own ball.

it's our ball

It's a shared ball that we helped pump up.

(That popping sound was a metaphor stretching to breaking point...)

If Scotland leaves the UK and joins Europe why would you not want to have the euro.

I'm not really surprised. Most of the time, for most English people, Scotland is an irrelevance

for most people anywhere outside their normal "world" which may be as small as a village in the middle of nowhere or as large as a city is an irrelevance

- we're this wee country up North which makes whisky and fried Mars bars.

you should see what people say about Liverpool, and visa-versa,

But now the English media is filled with stories about Scotland, and lots of it is about how Scotland is richer than the rest of the UK, has more spending per head, and wants to leave the UK but wants to keep the Queen, the BBC and the Pound.

a lot of English media is the Yes campaign implicitly/ explicitly telling rUk (mainly the English) that we have been awful to the Scots and that it's all our fault, that we are now bullying poor Scotland and continuing the Westminister "yoke" that has stopped Scotland being a Utopia

can't think why attitudes are hardening

I think I'll use that policy- anyone that provides hard facts that contradict my bullshit, I'll just declare a troll and not bother to read it and therefore I will be right. FFS.

I am puzzled though as to why the majority of yS supporters think politicians are lying about CU,

when this poll shows that the largest electorate in the UK is strongly opposed to that course of action?

Why is it acceptable for Scots to want to protect their interests, but if the rest of us wish to do the same its 'bullying' ?

I think the argument here is it harms both countries. The issue against is that rUK bears the burden of risk not iS. However I would also point out that the US bailed out the Uk, the UK bailed out Ireland. Ie if one of your major trading partners goes belly up it is still in your best interest to bail them out whether in a formal union or no union at all.

The stance of not discussing what will happen after a vote, but only when it suits us is in bad faith and lot of people don't like it

1) is anyone considering moving savings to English banks? Been considering this and noticed the scotsman covered it the other day http://www.scotsman.com/news/how-likely-would-run-on-banks-be-after-yes-vote-1-3511906

2) is now a stupid time to consider buying a house in Scotland?

Still interested in anything fact based about the above if anyone works in these kind of areas

Still interested in anything fact based about the above

Good luck with that - on here we tend to deal more in wild speculation 😉