[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-voters-previously-against-yes-vote-explain-why-they-changed-their-minds-9593134.html ]No voters who are switching to Yes...[/url]

slow day if we are just listing folk who agree with us.
That is too both of you BTW.
[s]Forgive my lack of bias here will you fellas[/s] 😉

Sorry for trolling you both 😀

Alternately:-
[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/new-poll-yes-32-no-46-dont-know-22.1404634503 ]Support for independence appears to have stalled [/url]

Yup, it really is hard to tell how it's going to go.

No it isn't. It never has been. No has always been well ahead.

Past polls aren't an indication of future voting. The trend is moving towards Yes, but the question is is it moving fast enough, and have people taken account of the first-time voters properly?

bencooper - Member

No voters who are switching to Yes...

I thought it was going to be a link to a serious poll finding ! 😀

Ben

Those are the straws you must keep clutching, I suppose. But every indication is that its still strongly No.

Indeed, (largely) canny folk who know what is best.

This will get closer though. AS knows how to play the game even if he lacks the detail on the important stuff. Three percent just from doing a Farrage on TV - mainstream cannot handle BSers as Cleggy showed with UKIP.

[quote=bencooper ]The trend is moving towards Yes

er, you appear to be replying to:

[quote=heraldscotland]Support for independence appears to have stalled

The independence debate is not in the national news as much as I thought it would be although this could be the quiet before the storm. What is it like in Scotland? Much in the media? Anybody had people knocking on the door canvassing for support?

are you suggesting there that Scottish issue are not covered generally in the Union 😉

Anybody had people knocking on the door canvassing for support?

Not from either official campaign, no. My windowcleaner (voting Yes) saw the small sticker I had on the shop window, mentioned it to one one else on his round who had more stickers and posters, and she dropped in with some, which I've also passed on to neighbours who wanted them. So it's more a self-organising thing, really.

Oh, there was the leaflet from Better Together in the post, but that went straight in the recycling.

There's an interesting discussion over on The Website Which Must Not Be Named, around the subject of pensions. It goes like this:

Taxpayers in the UK pay taxes all their working lives, and receive a state pension when they retire. This includes taxpayers in Scotland. That pension continues to be paid out if the pensioner moves abroad - as it should be, since the pensioner paid into it all their life.

The UK government confirmed that pensions will be unaffected by Scottish independence, all taxpayers who have paid in will continue to receive a pension from the UK government. So basically, at the point of independence, an independent Scotland will have no pensions liability, as all the pensions will be being paid by the UK government.

Considering how much of the welfare budget goes on pensions, that's a pretty big whack of money that an independent Scotland will save - estimates of £100bn have been made.

Interesting.

[So basically, at the point of independence, an independent Scotland will have no pensions liability, as all the pensions will be being paid by the UK government]

Not so fast Ben. Not everyone is retired. For those yet to retire, their ultimate entitlement will be affected by pensions policies of iS. The rUK will not be picking up the full tab for a current 25 year old who retires in 40+ years. Largely another non-story about recognising liabilities at the point of independence. But nothing committed about liabilities generated thereafter.

Yes, of course there will be a scaling thing - for me, there will be 20 years of UK pensions I've paid into, and whatever else from Scottish pensions.

Basically the pension liability of everyone in Scotland at the date of independence will be paid by the rUK - which is fair enough, we've paid taxes so we should get our benefits back.

Yes, of course there will be a scaling thing - for me, there will be 20 years of UK pensions I've paid into, and whatever else from Scottish pensions.

Basically the pension liability of everyone in Scotland will be paid by the rUK - which is fair enough, we've paid taxes so we should get our benefits back.

I thought that the current state pension wasn't funded that way? Current pensioners get their pension from current PAYE payments. So you'd presumably get your Scottish pension from Scottish taxpayers ?

That's going to be a problem for the rUK government. It's as if we've all been paying into a savings account, and instead of saving the money the government has been spending it.

The liability remains, however.

So you'd presumably get your Scottish pension from Scottish taxpayers ?

Scottish pension, yes. I'm going to get a Scottish pension, which I'll pay into from the date of independence, but before then I've been paying into a UK pension, which the rUK will still owe me.

It doesn't make sense any other way - the alternative is that, for example, someone who retires one year after independence gets a full pension paid for by the Scottish government, who have only received one year's NI payments from that person.

That's going to be a problem for the rUK government. It's as if we've all been paying into a savings account, and instead of saving the money the government has been spending it

As I say, a bit of a non-issue. In the event of separation there'll be a negotiation of the split of assets & liabilities. This is but one of many subjects of negotiation. And before you say "but the UK promised", just think what that means when actuaries on both sides get involved.

Why would the national news be interested Ben? The rehashed BS was exposed months ago. No coherent case has been presented to date and all key questions ducked. Most of rUK has simply dismissed the whole charade but would re-engage if the vote seemed close to avoid the obvious harm that would be caused to all parties.

In the meantime the more hysterical/trivial attempts of yS are probable best served by channel 5.

Most of the rUK dont care as we cannot vote ...forgive the troll as you like to call my questioning of your "analysis".

TV debate is on!

Salmond is still trying to get Cameron to debate, but he has had to make do with Darling. Salmond needs to make this an England vs Scotland issue because he hasn't been able to put across an argument for independence that appeals to Scots on a practical level.

Of course he does and hopefully CMD will be sensible enough to avoid. It's pretty much impossible to deal with rampant BS and distortion in the context of a TV debate as Farrage's brilliantly awful examples show.

We have seen enough though. The DO came out to play in the big boys playground and was mashed by all and sundry. Enough said....no wonder he had to hide behind the lame bully excuse.

THM using the word bully is just not acceptable! It does not fit in with junkyard's independence forum rules. No doubt he will be along to tell you off 😉

Salmond needs to make this an England vs Scotland issue because he hasn't been able to put across an argument for independence that appeals to Scots on a practical level

Similarly you cannot really blame AS for doing the things that will do benefit his campaign the most even if a portion of that is to appeal to base nationalism.

Again you defend CMD for playing politics and criticise AS for playing politics

Neither is great IMHO but i can see why both do it and they are playing the same game the same way.

The constant comparison of AS to farage is a cheap slur and the type of BS deceit you object to THM [ again oh the irony/pathos in your posts] - even ernie challenged you on that point though of course it is a troll when i do it.

Who FNF?

No one can complain about rehashing yS terminology!!! No guesses why the word slips so easily off his tongue....

Similarly you cannot really blame AS for doing the things that will do benefit his campaign the most even if a portion of that is to appeal to base nationalism.

True. But I can say that he has failed to sell a rational case for independence to Scots according to the polls. I don't see people changing their minds that much in the months to come either.

Exactly FNF. It's going to be tough to get this to 7k now (even with plenty of trolly padding).

[quote=bencooper ]It doesn't make sense any other way - the alternative is that, for example, someone who retires one year after independence gets a full pension paid for by the Scottish government, who have only received one year's NI payments from that person.

Now I'm really confused. What exactly is the point of this vote if Scotland is already independent from the UK?

THM the troll claim [ NOM NOM NOM] is tragic
Here is the point that is not beyond you [ except to defend obviously hence the ad hom whilst claiming only I do it}
your starter for 10 ....best of luck with it
So dispatches was it like how you described it or how they described it?
How is that a troll?
Go on explain how my point is incorrect ? you cannot and we all know it hence you play the man.

You were doing your hyperbolic thing [ lies you would call it were AS to do it] and you know there is no credible way to explain it.

Its amusing to have you two call me troll and claiming i had a near mental breakdown ...but its just me doing the trolling name calling stuff eh

As credible and believable as anything else you type.
As for bully I dont think i have accuse anyone of bullying on this thread o rthis forum so that would be a straw man faster 😛

JY I would never call you a troll. I did call you a nat once though 😆

Thanks for the respect 😀

[quote=Junkyard ] As for bully I dont think i have accuse anyone of bullying on this thread o rthis forum so that would be a straw man faster

Well for that you get one of these:

[img] [/img]

because faster didn't suggest you'd accused anybody of bullying

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

(feel free to ignore me as I've no idea what's going on in your argument with fnf and thm and don't want to know - but couldn't resist the opportunity)

I think someone has been on the tipple - either that or paranoia/self delusion. 😉

Aracer guilty as charged ...goes to sit on the dunces step for a while * 😳

THM was the starter for 10 too hard you had to play the man yet again

Insults is all you have to offer whilst claiming i troll ... the DO one has nothing on your BS

* he did suggest i would object to bullying when I have never accused anyone of bullying . I am not sure how anyone can bully anyone on here tbh though THM seems to be giving it a try [ unless of course i am just being drunkenly paranoid that he is having repeated digs at me]
Shall we see what the evidence points to THM 😉

JY bullied me when I proved him wrong about the trams though. I mean I like totally pwned the guy and he just wouldn't let it go.

You get used to it. Imagine being trolled about a TV programme you clearly stated that you didn't watch!! It's beyond desperate. Best not to feed FNF but even that doesn't work as you can see clearly.

Now I'm really confused. What exactly is the point of this vote if Scotland is already independent from the UK?

Yes, you are. Scotland at the moment is not independent, so all Scots pay into the UK pension fund. Once Scotland is independent, then Scots will pay into a Scottish pension fund.

However, there will still be a pension liability for the rUK to cover those payments that Scots made into the UK pension fund before independence. On the date of independence, Scotland will have zero pension liability because there will have been no payments into the Scottish pension fund yet.

JY, is AS the "leader of the current state wanting independence?" You seem to be succumbing to nobody is voting "no" syndrome.

[quote=bencooper ]Yes, you are. Scotland at the moment is not independent, so all Scots pay into the UK pension fund.

Is Scotland not benefiting from those payments as part of the UK?

However, there will still be a pension liability

Not planning on taking your share of the liabilities then?

Is Scotland not benefiting from those payments as part of the UK?

Yes, of course - pensioners in Scotland receive their pensions from the UK. And that will continue after independence.

Not planning on taking your share of the liabilities then?

Depends if we get a share of the assets - it's a good negotiation point. I assume there will be some negotiation along the lines of Scotland taking over the pension liabilities in return for substantial assets.

Ben, please tell me that you are not planning your own pension on the basis of that view. If so, please see an advisor quickly!

THE Scottish Government’s plans for pensions in an independent Scotland amount to the “biggest mis-selling scandal in history”, according to the chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee.

You have been warned. Please don't fall for yet more lies when it comes to you pension. Seriously (STW joking apart, this is a serious piece of advice if you are exposed)

This is, of course, all about state pensions. I'm pretty much assuming there won't be a state pension by the time I get to retire, if I ever do.

[quote=bencooper ]Depends if we get a share of the assets - it's a good negotiation point. I assume there will be some negotiation along the lines of Scotland taking over the pension liabilities in return for substantial assets.

I'm sure iS will get its fair share of the assets (though not a share of things which aren't assets) in return for taking on its fair share of the liabilities. I don't think anybody sensible has ever suggested otherwise, though some delusional people have suggested walking away from the liabilities.

Or does "substantial" imply you were expecting more than that - in which case let me remind you of the Edinburgh agreement.

JY bullied me when I proved him wrong about the trams though. I mean I like totally pwned the guy and he just wouldn't let it go.

You get used to it. Imagine being trolled about a TV programme you clearly stated that you didn't watch!!

Dodgy yS practices on C4 at 8

Rather ironic what the dispatches website says

Antony Barnett goes on the campaign trail with both sides of the Scottish independence debate to investigate claims of dubious tactics and misinformation.
My emphasis obviously.

So both sides not just one...I think I know which you think comes out best without either of us bothering to watch it

Was your description an accurate description or a misleading one? No amount of calling me names will change the fact you were biased in your description and I am not sure why you are responding like this tbh. Its not even that a big a deal beyond your obfuscation tbh.
Now what do you say when AS does this sort of thing?

Y, is AS the "leader of the current state wanting independence?" You seem to be succumbing to nobody is voting "no" syndrome.

Yes your point is correct but i find it hard to believe you did not know what I meant. It would have been more accurate to say they are the heads of the states involved or affected.
Of course many are voting no and i would imagine it is still the majority.