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Aw shucks Thm you say the sweetest things but....no not for 500quid not even for 500 unicorns 😆
Every played poker with a prof Ben?
My dad only knows Gin Rummy.
Europe will be fudged, of course it will, because the alternative to not letting Scotland join will be a lot messier, and we meet the criteria anyway. Only an officious moron would make Scotland leave and then rejoin agin in a year or two.
And you only need to get 28 other countries to agree with that point of view to make it come true... 😉
Unlike, say, academics at prestigious universities who have to produce peer-reviewed papers to get funding.
Like Professor Adam Tomkins at the School of Law of the University of Glasgow ?
According to Professor Adam Tomkins :
[i] "It is clear that if we leave the UK then we would need to reapply to join the EU. To imagine that an independent Scotland could negotiate and ratify the terms of membership which the Scottish Government are proposing within an 18 month time-frame is hopelessly unrealistic"[/i]
http://news.stv.tv/politics/281876-law-professor-says-independent-scotlands-eu-membership-assured/
Fascinating ernie but what nationality is he ? 😉 [ not a real question to be clear]
It's impossible to be neutral or unbiased but is is possible to stick to factual evidence. Funny how a whole range of people manage to do that even though they are on very different sides of the political and economic debate!
Funny how folk only say this about the ones who agree with them and then ignore it when say their side use the figures of someone who then criticises their sides analysis [ cost setups for example]
You should have watched dispatches programme as it mentioned how the UK "neutrality" was not true [ in diplomatic communications] and they [ UK] put pressure on international figures and leaders to support the Union...see if you can name some it worked on.
Clearly Ys do exactly the same and put pressure on folk so that some wont speak out and feel silenced.Neither side, nor their supporters , are anywhere near impartial but some are way more biased than others
To try and claim your side is and the other is not is daft [ I am not sure if you are claiming this tbh.
Gordi, take it up with scotcen social research
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25846914
Their idea not mine. I would rather spend the money at the Peat Inn, Inverlochy or Altniharre than buying a yes vote!
Professor Adam Tomkins? This Professor Adam Tomkins?
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https://mobile.twitter.com/ProfTomkins
Yeah, he's totally impartial 😀
Ah, but he's working at a Scottish Uni so is therefor not impartial and can't be trusted. See how that work? Silly, isn't it.
The argument from the Prof in Oxford and the legal advice given to the Government is that although that option is the most obvious in law, the situation isn't likely to occur to a whole host of things mentioned in both papers and reports. u But I feel we've been over this before.
[quote=bencooper ]Only an officious moron would make Scotland leave and then rejoin agin in a year or two.
You do remember we're talking about the EU? Do you not see the problem?
No one can predict what the EU will do and , given they fudged the Euro, stopped having referendum when they were not going their way and then claimed it was not a constitution then I am sure we can all agree they can do pretty much anything they please
Personally, given they are expansionist and the precedent[ish] of germany I think they will find a way to allow them to "remain" in the EU.
Most EU leaders think Cameron is an idiot - several have already said so - so I wouldn't put it past various EU leaders to wave Scotland in just to wind him up.
Yeah, he's totally impartial 😀
Erm, that was the point 🙄
It was in response to your apparent suggestion that politicians are biased but not academics, remember?
bencooper - MemberPeople are unreliable when they (1) are ignorant of the facts, (2) know the facts but forget them, (3) know that facts but prefer to lie, (4) know the facts but prefer to deceive the voters
So pretty much every politician, then?
Unlike, say, academics at prestigious universities who have to produce peer-reviewed papers to get funding.
Hence my comment : "Like Professor Adam Tomkins at the School of Law of the University of Glasgow?"
😀
No, I agree that academics can be biased - however they've got no intrinsic reason to be, unlike politicians, and without evidence you can't say an academic is biased just because they're Scottish.
So dispatches have you watched it yet 🙄
😆
which is it 1, 2 ,3 or 4 ?
8)
Where do you think they get their funding from Ben? You have watched the climate debate?
Why would Paul Krugman ever defend austerity?
Dodgy yS practices on C4 at 8 (phew still on the train for that) then Peston ("Welllllll Huw....) on the biased (!!) Beeb at 9
Even less to learn that "more Lance" at 9 on C4. Appropriate level of telling the truth perhaps? From a viewing perspective I reckon lance gets it just
You're so deep into your own comedy posting style that this post is barely comprehensible.
😆 😆
I appreciate that KB as does the DO - he knows how to keep things simply untrue much better than most.
Have you never heard Peston's reports on the news? Don't bet a beer on any report starting without Wellllllllllll Huw......
Better than most but not better than you?
Your assessment of the dispatches programme is at odds with what it actually did so heal thyself rather than keep moaning about his deceit /misrepresentation.
Calling me some more names wont make your account anymore accurate.
Crikey, hunger really plays with the mind doesn't it......it even starts to get embarrassing. Perhaps a little morsel might help avoid any more outings from under the bridge.....
Nah, missed it. Got in and the programme on Uni Challenge (lots of very bright people from elite institutions) seemed far more interesting and factual.
Salmond-esque degrees of misrepresentation to say otherwise Someone would be very proud!!!!
Meanwhile, in related news, more unsuccessfully trolling reported elsewhere according to the Torygraph
Alex Salmond has been accused of personally pressurising the body that represents Scotland's financial services to drop a report on independence, The Telegraph can disclose.The First Minister telephoned the chairman of the Scottish Financial Enterprise (SFE) last November and is said to have discouraged him from publishing a briefing paper on the referendum.
Both Mr Salmond and John Swinney, the finance minister, are also alleged to have rung senior executives of leading SFE member companies expressing their concerns about the paper.
A source at the trade body characterised the ministers' conversations as "forceful" and said the SNP Government had been "trying to discourage us from saying anything" on the referendum
The SFE defied Scottish Government pressure and published a report that contradicted some of Mr Salmond's most central claims on the country's finances after independence.
AS must be getting hungry too?
Is that better or worse than the PM using the Foreign office to try to get leaders of other countries to support the No side?
One is trying to get people to say what they think, the other is trying to stop people saying what they think.
Is that better or worse than .......
What if it was the same, would that make it ok ?
I'm sure it would. What do you think ?
Is that better or worse than the PM using the Foreign office to try to get leaders of other countries to support the No side?
Whatever happens in the division of oilfields after independence, Scots should rest assured that they will be one of the world'a leading producers and exporters of whataboutery.
Interesting thread here and IMO a preview of future attractions from an independent Scotland, racing to cut taxes to attract/retain businesses. The fact is someone else is going to have to make up the difference or public expenditure is going to fall.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-oil-industry-call-for-less-tax ]Oil Industry Tax Cuts Proposed[/url]
Whatever happens in the division of oilfields after independence, Scots should rest assured that they will be one of the world'a leading producers and exporters of whataboutery.
Seems like a pretty fair comment given that nearly half this thread is THM et al attacking Salmond for doing what every other politician under the sun is doing.
Crikey, hunger really plays with the mind doesn't it......it even starts to get embarrassing
To repeat calling me some more names wont make your account of the dispatches programme anymore accurate. You were incorrect and you have no defence so you are left with name calling only. Your were wrong everyone knows it even you. the fact you do this rather than retract is pathetic [ literally].
Yes the SNP have pressurised numerous bodies into taking up supportive positions or not publishing/ highlighting overly negative ones on independence
I know this will come as shock seeing as you[s]"chose"[/s] were too busy to watch the programme you mentioned but so has the UK government
So which are you here 1, 2, 3, or 4?
All politicians/both sides are a little bit duplicitous and pressure folk to say things that support their position. Obviously when china and Obama do this you highlight it as genuine support and just criticise the other side when they do it.
Some balance is required here THM and you are some way from it.
Claiming I troll and name call when you get facts wrong is an interesting tactic and one so tragic no t even the DO has done it yet.
[b]bencooper[/b]
Only an officious moron would make Scotland leave and then rejoin agin in a year or two.
The delay before re-joining would more reasonably be 3-5 years, it's highly unlikely it could be as short as 1 or 2, so such a longer delay doesn't look to be the work of a moron. It could be that Scotland could agree an immediate transition or fast track but that IMO means adopting the euro, the full EU book of legislation and an appropriately large budget contribution. Given the relatively small resources available to Scotland in terms of manpower that's a big ask given all the concurrent negotiations with the UK about separation.
@whatnobeer - AS is very much in the premier league of misrepresentation.
Which elected leader are you saying is poor at it
CMD and his greenest ever govt?
CMD and the No changes to the NHS?
Clegg and his pledge over tuition fees?
Brown ending boom and bust?
Blairs dossier?
Shall i go on or is that enough?
Who is this elected leader you are holding up as a bastion of truth ?
As he is a politician of course he is full of shit.
He is the leader of his party and his country of course he is in the premier league of lying bullshittery
This is not news.
As the dispatches programme noted both sides were engaged in skulldugger for they are campaigns run by politicians to achieve a political goal
You have to be pretty naive to be surprised by this and massively biased to only moan at or notice one side doing it.
To single him out alone is simply to say you want to vote no.
but that IMO means adopting the euro
It means agreeing to adopt it at some time in the future but you still need to pass the tests and they wont.
As has been noted there are other countries who have not joined the Euro and the EU is clear that they will not force them.
they will not be forced but they will be forced to say they will join when they can.
but that IMO means adopting the euro
Aw yeah, big man, wir totes gaunnae tek the euro, we love a euro likes <== actual text of Scottish Euro commitment for EU entry.
A'up in't it time to move on't Yorkshire free state. Tha can keep yer € unless it's free.
Still don't really understand this fear of committing to the Euro - after all, just a couple of years ago it was SNP policy. You remember, back when the pound was 'a millstone round Scotland’s neck' and automatic EU membership was guaranteed...
As he is a politician of course he is full of shit.
Politicians do lie, who doesn't, but they also have to compromise to get anything done. Take Clegg for instance he said no to tuition fees and traded that out to the tories probably thinking he would get PR voting. As a junior partner in a coalition he never really had any power to get anything done without compromise. Are we all not a little harsh on politicians?
Take Clegg for instance he said no to tuition fees and traded that out to the tories probably thinking he would get PR voting.
That makes is sound like a minor change in detail over an fairly unimportant issue. Clegg however didn't treat it like that at all, he did a lot more than simply "say" no to tuition fees.
He made a [i]pledge[/i] - a solemn and binding promise, that he vote against any increase in tuition fees, and that he would put pressure on the government to introduce a "fairer alternative".
Much fanfare was created to publicise this pledge as Clegg sought maximum media attention to what was a central LibDem policy, and one which undoubtedly won the LibDem votes.
Clegg even posed with dark-skinned kids to increase his credibility when he was engaging in photo-opportunities to publicise of his "pledge".
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The magnitude of Clegg's dishonesty was far worse than the average politician's failure to deliver. Contrary to the much bandied about allegation that all politicians liars imo most are in fact far more honest than they get credit for, and failure to deliver isn't usually deliberate.
When they make "pledges" they tend to stick with them, I doubt that you would be able to find another example of an election pledge deliberately broken.
Clegg and tuition fees is not a good example, it's way off the 'dishonest politician scale'.
Clegg wasn't dishonest, he was un-principled. He sold out on everything the Lib-Dems stood for to be in a coalition government and swan around with the title of Deputy Prime Minister. He didn't even trade them for a referendum on proportional representation just the "grubby little compromise" (his words).
@Junkyard, if Scotland is as strong as the SNP says you will definitely qualify for the euro. I don't see how you can not.
No Clegg wasn't unprincipled, he had principles.
Here is one of his principles which he wanted everyone to see :
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There is little doubt that the LibDems won extra votes because of Clegg's "pledge". But he didn't keep it, which makes him dishonest imo.
jambalaya - Member
@whatnobeer - AS is very much in the premier league of misrepresentation.
Of course and this is an important issue not only for the people of Scotland but also for rUK (Yes all of it)
Of, course Cleggy talked bllx. But he has come from decades of irrelevance. The lib Dems had a crash course in what it means to have responsibility for execution not just easy rhetoric that can never be/will never be executed. By accident (and the folly of a TV debate) they get elevated to a position that no one imagined. Hardly surprising that the promises were a complete mirage. A harsh lesson learned.
The difference with the deceitful one is that these are real issues, with real policies that will be implemented, with real questions that need to be answered without hiding behind the 3Bs. That is why you cannot dismiss the DO so lightly (plus he has had a political lifetime to get ready to answer them).
As jambalaya said it is not the deceit/misrepresentation in itself that is remarkable it is the magnitude of it. That puts it into a whole different level. There is a blatant lie at the heart of the whole iS debate that I have highlighted over an over again. To waste money and time on something centered on such a basic lie elevates his deceit to a completely different level v the standard political BS that we put up with on a daily basis.
BT was sleepwalking into this which makes them partly culpable. Having said that they really should keep quiet and let yS condemn themselves out of their own mouths. Above all avoid the TV debate. If there is any value in Cleggy it is to point that out (actually TBF they had a job to do and broken promises a sided, they actually did an ok job in appaling circumstances , so deserve to be cut some slack IMO)
Imagine the tories without the lib dems to hold them back. Things could have been a lot worse. There are many things to consider when slating coalition governments containing parties with not much in common.
Are we all not a little harsh on politicians?
In general yes we are. In this example No a million times no.
if Scotland is as strong as the SNP says you will definitely qualify for the euro. I don't see how you can not.
I still dont live there and I still cannot vote.
They wont be able to make the necessary changes to their central bank as they will be using the Pound 😉
FWIW the four criteria are
*Price stability, to show inflation is controlled;
*Soundness and sustainability of public finances, through limits on government borrowing and national debt to avoid excessive deficit;
*Exchange-rate stability, through participation in the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM II) for at least two years without strong deviations from the ERM II central rate;
*Long-term interest rates, to assess the durability of the convergence achieved by fulfilling the other criteria.
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/who_can_join/index_en.htm
as they will be a new country they cannot meet any of them and certainly not exchange rate stability for two years.
faster i agree the lib dems have reigned some of the tory excess re europe the NHS and done some good stuff re raising the tax threshold
However The tories could not rule without them and he has more power than he thought and he sold his soul to a deal for PR initially and he [ and possibly the entire party] are unlikely to be forgiven fr this
In essence he made some serious errors in the first few days/negotiations but after that they have done some good for sure and they get little credit for it.
Imagine the tories without the lib dems to hold them back. Things could have been a lot worse.
You mean like imagine the Tories without a parliamentary majority ? .....unable to pursue their right-wing agenda ?
That would have been [i]"a lot worse"[/i] ?
Well yes, I guess so.......if you are a Tory.
So every Tory in the country should be grateful that Nick Clegg and the LibDems were prepared to sell their principles for the simple privilege of a ride in a chauffeur-driven ministerial car. And I'm sure they are.
....adds Richard Harris and Durham Uni to the list. (I wonder if his stuff is peer reviewed?)
One of thm's early posts