[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

bencooper - Member

It comes from Professor Patrick Dunleavy at the London School of Economics, he's not a Yes supporter in the slightest.

Well you would like to believe he is impartial, he tells you want you want to hear.

In fact it's the same Prof Dunleavy who's figures the government completely misunderstood and inflated by 12 times to get their discredited estimate.

I'm well aware who he his, now why haven't you commented on the vast costs that for some strange reason he is not including in his £200 million figure?
Selective reading again Ben?
Do you honestly believe in the £200 million figure?

ernie_lynch - Member
It must be over 150 pages ago the last time someone suggested that Scotland is the last remaining colony of the British Empire...

Excellent way of not answering the question. The independence campaign is about our future, not the past, although that provides many good reasons for wanting control over our own affairs.

Surely a man of your great erudition should be able to come up with at least one country wanting to come back into the fold.

Surely a man of your....

I don't make ridiculous comparisons between Scotland possibly wanting to separate itself from the rest of Great Britain and colonies being granted independence from the British - which includes the Scots.

Nor do I make silly comments suggesting that Scots are living 'under the yoke'.

I leave all that nonsense to you.

ernie_lynch - Member
I don't make ridiculous comparisons between Scotland...

I take it that means you don't know of any countries wishing to surrender their independence and return to British rule then?

Epicyclo I can name a country that is willing to surrender it's independence, it is called Scotland. The majority of Scots are still not interested in independence and look set to show their support for the union by voting no according to pretty much every poll.

I take it that means you don't know of any countries wishing to surrender their independence and return to British rule then?

You can take it that I don't go along with your ridiculous suggestion that Scotland is under "British rule".

The living "under the yoke" comment is perfectly valid for some periods of Scottish history. However the best oppressors were the Scots themselves.

Same is true of English history. Remember the days of living under the Norman yoke, or the Danish yoke, or the Roman yoke ?

I did think we were talking about the present though, ie 2014.

Beat around the bushes as much as you like, but no-one has yet come up with a country that is willing to go back from independence to being ruled by the UK.

No matter how often you say it Scotland isn't ruled by the UK anymore than London is ruled by the UK.

Offering up Scotland as some sort of British colony is emotive bollocks which some nats have resorted to because they lack the ability to make a coherent case for so-called Scottish independence.

epicyclo - Member

Beat around the bushes as much as you like, but no-one has yet come up with a country that is willing to go back from independence to being ruled by the UK.

Remember when the British Empire marched into Scotland and forced you into UK rule?
No! You don't!
Your comparison is ridiculous.

ernie_lynch - Member
No matter how often you say it Scotland isn't ruled by the UK anymore than London is ruled by the UK...

Ah well, there's only 83 days left...

Nice flag redesign btw. 🙂

ernie_lynch - Member

No matter how often you say it Scotland isn't ruled by the UK anymore than London is ruled by the UK.

You're right- since neither Wales or Northern Ireland voted for the current government either, all 3 are ruled by England.

Glad we cleared that up.

Northwind - Member

Glad we cleared that up.

Nothing to clear up, we've always known this was about a minority of Scots not liking the English.

Oh good grief

Ps.
Dear Northwind, et al,
I am very sorry that you do not feel British.

xxx
sbob.

I am very sorry you could not use reason to argue against the facts so you made up some shit about him not liking the english

Are facts about our electoral system anti english ?

sbob - Member

I am very sorry that you do not feel British.

I feel British, and Scottish, and European. I'll still feel British post-independence.

You're right- since neither Wales or Northern Ireland voted for the current government either, all 3 are ruled by England.

And London.

London with its population bigger than that of Scotland's didn't vote for the current government either, so it must mean that it is "ruled by England", as you put it.......it's under the British "yoke" :rolls eyes:

Have you guys who come out with this silly emotive nonsense not figured out that it might not be enough to win the vote in September ?

Increasingly it looks like that the majority of Scots remain unconvinced about the virtues of separating from the rest of the UK, do you really think that talk about being ruled by the English really helps ?

Or is it a case of at this late stage trying any tactic in the hope that it might possibly work ?

So what part of it is wrong? Easy to call something "silly nonsense" but I can't help but notice you've not actually attempted to refute it.

Junkyard, this:

You're right- since neither Wales or Northern Ireland voted for the current government either, all 3 are ruled by England.

is bollocks, it isn't a fact.
What other motive than anti-Englishness would explain this false statement?
Do enlighten me...

Ernie is spot on. Plenty of Scots do not hold the view that we are ruled by other people. I suppose what needs dispelled is the myth that yes voters are somehow heralding a socialist cause against the rest of us not quite "Scottish enough Scots", supportive of a Tory 'regime'.

Before you all dig out those Che Guevara t-shirts again, some have mentioned the rise of the foodbanks as an example of a social injustice, hence the need for independence. I saw a program recently that outlined the plight of a family from Hull using a foodbank. How does Scottish independence help them? All I can think of is that perhaps with our own national broadcaster and press we don't need to hear about Hull, then can carry on in ignorant bliss. Power to us brothers.

Also I reckon Trident is not a big issue on its own. People will vote yes regardless of any political parties stance on it. If SNP ever change their stance on nuclear weapons I don't see many brothers giving up the good fight to freedom. I do understand though that this issue allows some to feel an unfounded sense of moral superiority.

I know their are Scots on both sides of the debate with poor geography skills, however since this the yes side raise the issue, I will say there will be significant numbers of yes voters that could not point to faslane on a map.

Easy to call something "silly nonsense"

Very easy, especially when people try to suggest that Scotland is some sort of colony under the yoke of the English.

it isn't a fact.
What other motive than anti-Englishness would explain this false statement?
Do enlighten me

dispelled is the myth that yes voters are somehow heralding a socialist cause against the rest of us not quite "Scottish enough Scots", supportive of a Tory 'regime'.

does a picture help?
[img] [/img]

do you really think that talk about being ruled by the English really helps ?

Yes, it seems to be the only card that wee eck has left to play. And the polls suggest that he has some success with it especially when he adds the word Tory to it. Given that most if not all of the other major arguments (to the extent that they even exist beyond the realms of fantasy) have been squashed already, I would expect the ruled by the English card will become a regular one played over the remainder. Time for mass screenings of face painted antipodeans......

Map shows how unrepresentative all those years of Labour government were, doesn't it...

Given that yet another body reaches the obvious conclusion...

The study concluded: “Any future independent Scottish government would need to further consolidate its fiscal position, meaning either an increase in taxes, a reduction in government spending or a combination of these two measures.”

...yS might as well play the ruled by English card for all it's worth. It's a better argument than the rest of the guff.

[quote=Junkyard ]does a picture help?

Indeed it does. Just look at all those orange bits at the top which will be ruled by the central belt.

Map shows how unrepresentative all those years of Labour government were, doesn't it...

Not really. It shows just how unrepresentative of Tory support a political map can be.

That is a political map of the UK after the last general election. In that election the Tories received 36% of the vote and failed to secure a majority in Parliament, they were however able to form a government thanks to all those Scottish Liberal Democrat MPs.

However looking at the map you could mistakenly believe that support for the Tories in the UK was solid and overwhelming, in contrast with actual reality. Which of course is why Junkyard posted it.

EDIT: I posted it to prove that NW point was correct as we cannot really debate this I am relived to see you did not go down the personal route nor make a spurious reason for why I posted it.
the clearest point would be that almost all the Blue is in England bar 4 so it is obvious that NW point is correct
If you remove those 11 seats [ scots lib dems] they still have 353 seats so No ernie it would not be true to say that. you can even remove the scot tory one as well if you want and they still have a majority. Pfft facts eh

BTW do you have a reference for your claim re the Scots role in the empire as we would not want to attempt to mislead now 🙄

aracer well we have not done that angle before ...its like deja vu all over again.

It proves NW was correct and not anti english

Ninfan those really are blue tinged glasses you wear 😉

What conclusion do you reach?

A different one to you.
Firstly, no-one voted for a coalition government.
Secondly, it doesn't matter where Westminster is located geographically, it houses MPs from England, Scotland and Wales.
By golly, we even had a Scottish Prime minister not that long ago!
So no, you are not ruled by England.

Unless you harbour anti-British, anti-English feelings in which case I could quite understand that point of view.

JY. Plenty of people think the way I describe. As an aside, how do you think Scottish independence helps a family in Hull using a foodbank??

[quote=Junkyard ]aracer well we have not done that angle before ...its like deja vu all over again.

Just like we've not had the "ruled by the English" before, eh?

athgray - Member

JY. Plenty of people think the way I describe. As an aside, how do you think Scottish independence helps a family in Hull using a foodbank??

It's unimportant.
Much like wanting democracy but only as long as you get the result you want.

If you remove those 11 seats [ scots lib dems]....

So you mean that contrary to the impression that the map you posted gives most of Scotland [i]isn't[/i] Liberal Democrat ?

That map is misleading ?!!!

[img] [/img]

I saw a program recently that outlined the plight of a family from Hull using a foodbank. How does Scottish independence help them?

1) Why does it have to be radical?
2) If the UK leaves the EU does anyone expect radical change from that?
Should we not bother discussing it then?
3) It is a proposal to be independent it is not a proposal to become a radical socialist utopia free of inequity with equal opportunities for all.

2) if the only proposal were to leave the EU but keep everything else the same, then no, that's not worth talking about either.

3) well, correct - unfortunately some nationalists see independence as an achievement n itself. It shouldn't be - it should be a tool that unlocks some other more important goal - like, reducing inequity, poverty and conflict.

States should exist to serve their populations and facilitate good governance. There has not been an articulation of what significant changes should and could be made with the new tool of independence or why those changes could not be made under the status quo - just an assertion that there will be an improvement even though everything will stay the same.

Ultimately this is a problem with the SNP being the Tartan Tories - they think they can only sell independence on a "don't scare the horses" platform - "don't worry, independence won't mean that iScotland will nationalize your second bedroom and force you to speak Lallans to your dog". But if you push a small c conservative platform then you don't end up with significant changes (so why bother ?) and you don't have any technocratic/pragmatic arguments in favour of change (so you can only appeal to sentiment).

Time for mass screenings of face painted antipodeans......

A different one to you.

So no, you are not ruled by England.

Unless you harbour anti-British, anti-English feelings in which case I could quite understand that point of view.

JY. Plenty of people think the way I describe. As an aside, how do you think Scottish independence helps a family in Hull using a foodbank??

Ernie is it really your claim tha I have used a map of the election result by constituency to misrepresent the election result. Is that you being humorous? The map proves NW point which is all it was meant to do hence you are left doing this desperate stuff. Ignore the figures if you wish but it undeniably proves that england decided we got Tories and not the regions/areas NW mentioned.

KB thanks you for your post and explanation. I understand your view, Cheers.

Who do I answer JY or gordimhor?
JY watch what you copy and paste. The first part was a statement, not a question.

I know but I included it as you had directed it to me and it seemed pointless to abridge - I may have got a little cut and paste happy even by my standards 😳

Ignore us both is my best advice 😉

I know I should but I can't.

Gordimhor, that is what saddens me. Can Scots not find the same way out of the same old claptrap as a struggling family using a foodbank in Hull? 😥 I hope we can.

Loads of waffle, but still no countries that want to come back under UK rule.

"Loads of waffle" says the man who makes a comparison between former colonies of the British Empire and Scotland today, and talks about being "under the yoke" 😆

<sigh> I've resisted, but this is for you, epicyclo:

[img] [/img]