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Meanwhile, Alastair Darling has wimped out of a debate with Alex Salmond:
Darling had previously said that he would be willing to debate "any time, anywhere".
Darling had previously said that he would be willing to debate "any time, anywhere".
But Salmond won't ? Why is he refusing have the debate with Alistair Darling on July 16 insisting that he will only debate with Cameron on that date ?
Salmond/SNP/Yes Camp appear to be more concerned with posturing, theatricals, and grandstanding, than getting on with the debate.
If he's available to debate with Cameron on July 16 then he is very clearly available to debate with Darling on July 16. Darling is right not to allow Salmond play silly games and to change the date of the debate to suit his posturing. Salmond needs to learn that he can't always bully and dictate.
bencooper - MemberMeanwhile, Alastair Darling has wimped out of a debate with Alex Salmond:
Are we reading the same article?
Honestly Ben, in the nicest possible way, you are mental.
Well the article I'm reading says:
The pro-UK Better Together campaign withdrew from the contest
Now you can argue if you like about whether their reason for pulling out is valid or not, but the basic fact is that they pulled out.
Mr Darling, Better Together’s leader and the former Labour Chancellor, had accepted an invitation from the broadcaster to debate Mr Salmond on July 16.
The pro-UK campaign said it was told by STV that the date was “firmly set” and it was “not willing to enter into negotiations with either campaign on the timing”.
However, Better Together said the broadcaster immediately bowed to Mr Salmond’s request to move it to a later date despite him being available on July 16.
The First Minister has said he would go head-to-head with David Cameron on that date but he would not debate Mr Darling until after the Glasgow Commonwealth Games
Mr Darling has accepted another invitation for a debate on the BBC on August 12 but it was not known whether the First Minister would participate.
I've trimmed the article for you into the relevent bits. Have another go.
Why is he refusing have the debate with Alistair Darling on July 16 insisting that he will only debate with Cameron on that date ?
Simples! He wants to debate with the organ grinder, not the monkey.
Now you can argue if you like about whether their reason for pulling out is valid or not, but the basic fact is that they pulled out.
The date was set, Salmond pulled out.
Another date has been agreed to by BT, Salmond is yet to agree to it.
I've trimmed the article for you into the relevent bits. Have another go.
Impressed as I am by your copy and paste skills, I'm still struggling to see where it says anyone other than Better Together pulled out of the debate.
Guardian reports it completely differently
Obviously that could just be the biased London-based media spin though, of course...
The First Minister has said he would go head-to-head with David Cameron on that date but [b]he would not debate Mr Darling[/b]
I'm not sure I can make it any easier for you to comprehend.
So Salmond should have an open offer to debate anyone on whatever date Better Together want? If BT want to send the office cat, Salmond should still debate with it? The offer always was Cameron on the 16th, or Darling at a later, more convenient date.
Presented with that, Better Together pulled out, as it says in the article.
Even offering to debate with Darling is a pretty big concession - as head of Better Together, Darling should be debating with the head of Yes Scotland, Dennis Canavan, who has always been more than willing. But BT don't want that either.
So Salmond should have an open offer to debate anyone on whatever date Better Together want? If BT want to send the office cat, Salmond should still debate with it? The offer always was Cameron on the 16th, or Darling at a later, more convenient date.Presented with that, Better Together pulled out, as it says in the article.
Even offering to debate with Darling is a pretty big concession - as head of Better Together, Darling should be debating with the head of Yes Scotland, Dennis Canavan, who has always been more than willing. But BT don't want that either.
You know it's stuff like that convinces me just how bankrupt of any sensible arguments the Yes camp really are.
It's all meaningless posturing that has absolutely nothing to do with the real debate.
You know it's stuff like that convinces me just how bankrupt of any sensible arguments the Yes camp really are.
I think I'll hold back on replying, lest I be banned.
The worst thing is I genuinely believe Ben [i]isn't[/i] trolling, just straight up delusional.
fasternotfatter - Member
Independent Scotland 'could not charge English students tuition fees'More SNP dreams are shattered. In the event of independence I would like to thank Scots for providing English students with free degrees.
POSTED 3 HOURS AGO #
So how does that sit with the constant crowing and assertions on this thread that we will not be in the EU? Take your time...
So how does that sit with the constant crowing and assertions on this thread that we will not be in the EU? Take your time...
By "crowing and assertions" I take it you mean what is already written into European law?
Already covered:
Once Scotland leaves the EU they can do whatever they like.
It wasn't your post I was referring to,but are you saying that two of your fellow anti independence contributors to this thread might be...well,wrong?
It's all meaningless posturing that has absolutely nothing to do with the real debate.
+1
Ben isn't trolling, I agree, but would prefer misguided (unsurprisingly given the BS spouted by yS) rather than delusional which is a trifle rude don't you think? AS has tricked lots of people the same way (including real cyber nats and trolls)
Ah,you are up! So THM,could you clear something up for me,you spent as lot of time (and a great deal of imagination making up interesting nicknames) telling us we would not be in Europe,yet on the last page you talk about a free education and "another piece of BS biting the dust" as an EU member Scotland would not be able to refuse English students,so which is it you believe in?
bencooper - Member
Meanwhile, Alastair Darling has wimped out of a debate with Alex Salmond:Darling had previously said that he would be willing to debate "any time, anywhere".
POSTED 7 HOURS AGO #
I think you'll find this is a good example of everyone involved being a prick.
Anyway, God save the Queen.
Coz I certainly won't. She can **** off.
You mean it, maaaan.
you spent as lot of time ... telling us we would not be in Europe,
Hate to point out your on-going compulsion to misrepresent yet again ducks, but I think you will find that I have spent little time on that specific topic (other than quickly pointing out the obvious BS, but that's v simple)
yet on the last page you talk about a free education and "another piece of BS biting the dust" as an EU member Scotland would not be able to refuse English students,so which is it you believe in?
Shall I draw the tongue in cheek next time? I would love to avoid the £36-50k bill that I would face if THM minor chooses to go to a Scottish Uni. Go Alex Go (tongue swapped to the other side there)
The worst thing is I genuinely believe Ben isn't trolling, just straight up delusional.
I know, that weird delusion where I can read and understand the words of a newspaper article 😉
You do know that when you start insulting your opponent, you've already lost the argument?
Anyhow, isn't it interesting that Better Together pull out of a debate on STV right after they're offered one on the BBC? Neither broadcaster is brilliant, but STV are getting noticeably more balanced in their independence reporting, whereas the BBC is getting worse.
All-in-all a rather tawdry and unedifying little spat there - good job the issue isn't that important. (Ducks, it's back on the other side here, just in case)
Personally, I find it quite odd that the PM of my country doesn't think that Scottish independence is an issue worth having a debate about. Of course Cameron isn't stupid, he knows that there's no way he can win a debate with Salmond, but he can't come out and say that. So instead we have the odd situation where he alternates between making pronouncements on independence and then saying it's an issue for the Scottish people only.
Hud yer wesht Ben,You will be getting accused of being at best misguided.
My ongoing compulsion to "mis-represent" pales into insignificance to your inability to remain consistant in your BS.
I have spent little time on that specific topic (other than quickly pointing out the obvious BS, but that's v simple)
Maybe read back the huge quantities of cutting and pasting you were doing early on in this thread and the links to various experts saying we would not be members of the EU and re-evaluate that statement,or you could just continue with what some might call terminological inexactitudes.
To be fair he has consistently called AS and myself names* whilst demanding we respect each other.
Cameron wont debate as he cannot win as he is not Scottish and he knows it will help the other side. He is many thinks but stupid is not one of them.
Like much of this [ including AS] it is politically wise if not something you would applaud on the grounds of integrity, democracy or honesty.
* I doubt even THM want to argue troll is flattering though he probably thinks me asking is a troll 😉
It's not just Cameron, though - Better Together suck at debates, and they know it. Pretty much every debate, even in front of a strongly unionist audience, sees a swing to Yes. So BT often refuse to put up speakers for debates, or when they do they do on the condition that the debate isn't filmed.
So they ideally don't want any televised debates at all. Does anyone really think Darking would do any better against Salmond than Cameron?
So more stories on what we wont be allowed to do because of an organisation that we won't be a member of, the usual contradictory stuff then.
Assuming that Scotland doesn't get special allowance from the EU to continue charging rUK students (which there is an allowance for in law, no idea how likely it is to be granted though), there would be nothing stopping the Scottish government seeing up a fee scheme similar to the one in Ireland. Fees would be free for all EU students, including rUK, but there is a student contribution requirement to allow exams to be sat etc which if you're resident in Scotland would be paid for by an income assessed grant. Sorted.
Yes, ducks handled quickly and early. Haven't got involved in latter discussions as EU situation rel. clear. So "huge" is a gross misrepresentation even by your on-going standards. But if it keeps you happy......
As Clegg has show, having a TV debate with someone who will deliberately and willfully play roughshod with facts is a hiding to nothing. Far better to let yS condemn themselves out of their own mouths. Normally, I support FoSpeech as it allows people to make fools of themselves (Griffin, Farrage, Salmond etc) but having BS debates is potentially a waste of time and money. Farrage showed clearly how such events can be manipulated. No one benefits.
Salmond would chew up Darling in the way that Farrage chewed up Cleggie. That the latter did that with scant regard to telling the truth, tells much of the story.
Darling holds most of the trumps and outstanding aces in his hand but has taken the notion of letting your losers go early to an extreme. He cashed in one trump with the CU and co-ordination of that. Otherwise he has been lacklustre at best.
Does anyone really think [b]Darking[/b] would do any better against Salmond than Cameron?
Has the THM effect of using insulting names rubbed of on you now Ben 😉
Good Freudian slip 😀
Otherwise he has been lacklustre at best.
He's being set up to fail.
I see Salmond's still feart when it comes to the proposed TV debate with Farage...
Why on earth would Salmond want to debate with Farrage? He's not going to debate with the Monster Raving Loony Party either.
Ah, so Alex is allowed to pick and choose who he debates with but Cameron can't?
Ooh, look, there's the faux-outrage bus going past the window again!
The breakup of the UK is probably the biggest thing to happen politically in the last 100 years at least. You think it's beneath the dignity of the Prime Minister to debate on it?
Of course everyone can pick and choose who they debate with. Darling said he'd debate Salmond "any time, any place". Now he's changed his mind about that.
And I'm really not outraged in the slightest. More amused at Better Together - it takes a certain talent to shoot yourself in the foot so many times.
AS and CMD are both the leaders of their respective countries and the yes no positions. It is not unreasonable that they have a debate
Farage is a loon who hates one union [ not enough to not be an MP there or take their money] and loves another so much that he will go to a foreign land to tell them to stay in the union and not die by irony or embarrassment 😉
CMD is not choosing who he will debate he is refusing to debate. it is not the same thing.
You are comparing chalk and cheese here in terms of the people and the scenario.
He's being set up to fail.
Spot on Ben. In his position, I would feel v uncomfortable, perhaps that is why he not doing a great job. He knows he holds all the aces but he is losing the tactical skirmishes. He was out-of-his depth in the financial crisis and looks the same here. I expect that G Brown is quite happy to see that, which is a shame given the seriousness of the issue at hand.
AS will always seek to frame the debate around Westminster/English Tories. CMD is tactically correct to avoid that. As compelling as that argument is for most Scots, it is the not central to this debate. Even if it was, AS is proposing letting the same people control economic policy anyway but that elephant is looking tired by now.
Of course everyone can pick and choose who they debate with. Darling said he'd debate Salmond "any time, any place". Now he's changed his mind about that.
So what's wrong with July 16 ? Why is that unacceptable ? Cut out the bullshit and explain exactly why July 16 is unacceptable.
You've been banging on about this debate over two pages, so it's clearly very important to you, how about you now explain why July 16 is unacceptable ?
Go on, don't be shy, this debate is 'so important' I think we all deserve an explanation as to why Salmond won't debate on July 16.
Let's just assume Darling was lying when he said "any time, any place", so there's no need to keep whingeing about it and we can move on. So why can't the debate be staged on July 16, isn't the debate that important after all, is whingeing and playing silly games far more important ?
AS never said yes to it [ he sent an invite to Dave] and, this will be a shock, but it is for political reasons that he is doing this.... I know imagine.
He prefers to debate nearer the vote to sway the crucial undecided rather than when the vote is some way
Its not hard to find the reasons tbh - you are free to find them noble or ignoble
So what's wrong with July 16 ? Why is that unacceptable ? Cut out the bullshit and explain exactly why July 16 is unacceptable.
Because it's right in the middle of the biggest sporting event ever held in Scotland, there are a few distractions.
And of course Salmond would like to get the biggest audience for the debate, he doesn't want to be competing for air time with the rhythmic gymnastics.
He was willing to compromise if the debate was with the Prime Minister, but if it's going to be with a backbench MP then he's less inclined to be accomodating.
Because it's right in the middle of the biggest sporting event ever held in Scotland, there are a few distractions.
23 July to 3 August?
he's less inclined to be accomodating
Head of the No campaign
I still don't get why Alex is allowed to pick and choose how accommodating he is, while Dave isn't
Maybe he's got better things to do, like running the country, picking the fluff out his belly button, something like that?
Heres a lesson Alex, the Prime minister of the country doesn't have to jump when you tell him to!
Ooh, look, there's the faux-outrage bus going past the window again!
It was supposed to be a faux-outrage tram but, you know...Scotland.
bencooper - MemberI know, that weird delusion where I can read and understand the words of a newspaper article
You seem to only be able to understand the words that you want to.
Now which of these statements, from your source, do you disagree with?
Salmond agreed to a debate with Darling.
The date was set, Salmond pulled out.
Another date has been agreed to by BT, Salmond is yet to agree to it.
These are all from your source Ben.
Which date has Darling pulled out of?
Darling said he'd debate Salmond "any time, any place". Now he's changed his mind about that.
Again, which time and place has Darling pulled out of?
You keep asserting that he has changed his mind, so give me a specific date and location for the debate that he has pulled out of.
Because it's right in the middle of the biggest sporting event ever held in Scotland, there are a few distractions.
No it isn't. July 16 is a week before the Commonwealth Games. That's not the reason - try to think of another one.
It's amazing that despite creating such a fuss about this debate you haven't yet thought up a reason why it can't be on July 16.
Although you, me, and everyone else, knows the real reason - because Salmond wants to play silly games. And he wants to call the shots, bully, and dictate - another reason why people should vote No in September.