[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

So were they/are they only Scottish when the sun is shining. Don't forget wee eck's profound comments in 2007

We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity, as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in 'gold-plated' regulation.

And the same guy who pledged his support for one of the great banking M&A disasters of recent times. So the Scots are meant to take a risk on this chancer?

Selective memory,so remind me; was that part of a salmond speech against a Westminster push for tighter regulation of banking? Or were they pulling the wool over every bodies eyes back then?

Surely the point is that no matter how inadequate UK regulation was at the time, Mr S saw even that as excessive and was calling for even [i]less[/i] scrutiny than was being applied in 2007...

Junkyard et al, quite interesting summary of the Treasury guarantee given over existing UK debt, which explains the rationale for taking the action:

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2014/02/14/1770832/how-scotland-really-lost-sterling-union/

Rebel12: I really struggle with points of view like that. I [I]could[/I] decide to sell my car and buy a donkey, but it would feel like cutting my nose off to spite my face.

I'm still not convinced that the Scottish independence movement isn't just 20% old school nationalists with an unpleasant side in bigotry, and 80% people who just hate the Tories?

Your memory is clearer than you make out. The comments speak for themselves.

But when the sun went in, his tone changed didnt it:

The people responsible for RBS...were the London ([i]deliberate choice of words as usual[/i]) Treasury ([i]strictly not true, wrong body by when do details matter with wee eck[/i]). Unfortunately, they were also responsible for regulating, or at least misregulating, the financial sector as well ([i]coveniently or otherwise leaving our BoE and FSA[/i]). I'm afraid people ([i]you know the ones behind the gold-plated regulation that absorbs so much time[/i]) have to take responsibility for the past mistakes they made.

Talk about selective memory! So the Scots are meant to take a risk with this chancer?

So to flip your coin l could,if arsed, find speeches of a similar vein from the politicians you would have continue to rule my country,with the added bonus of not caring about Scotland,which even you would have to admit Salmond does. Not selling much with that one,are you?

You could but it would be a fail. In his own words he argued that the people who failed us (and whose quotes you are free to find) were far too strict in the first place. Doh.....

So the Scots are meant to take a risk with this (fair weather) chancer?

First and foremost he cares for himself. If he really cared for Scotland he wouldnt talk such BS.

The only defence for Salmond on this subject is that light-touch regulation wouldn't have made much of a difference; the uk regulation was inadequate and outmaneuvered anyway. So the best he can say is that he'd have made the same call everyone else did. He's fairly unusual in that he's admitted he was wrong, but what's that worth really?

I would say to anyone feeling too pleased about that, that they're welcome to show me the alternative leader who would have led us to a different end. While condemning Salmond you condemn all of his opponents in the same breath.

For anyone in the Yes campaign to claim they'd have prevented the banking crisis is absurd. The truth is it made idiots of the majority of so-called experts in and out of government, few people get to be smug about it.

([i]I[/i] get to be smug about it because I always said predictive economics is as reliable a science as reading entrails. But that's not totally constructive- just because I was right to throw poo, doesn't mean I'm not a poo throwing monkey)

Course, those same experts and institutions are still calling the shots and making predictions and assigning credit ratings with the same confidence as they did before they turned out to know ****-all, but that's another thread 😉 Though, it is those same experts making judgements over Scottish independence, so perhaps not. Bring forth the entrails!

So the Scots are meant to take a risk with this (fair weather) chancer?

First and foremost he cares for himself. If he really cared for Scotland he wouldnt talk such BS.

THM, couldn't agree more - the man's as slippery as an eel dipped in olive oil. Far far worse even than what you'd typically expect from the average politician! You get the feeling he'd say anything to achieve his ambition of being president of Scotland.

Unlike CMD or say Clegg - now those are virtuous politicians who do what they say.
I think we can all agree we dont trust any politician.
I fail to see why wee eck gets this much grief from folk tbh.
He is no different from any other

I don't agree, despite my previous posts I do think that Scotland could make it as an independent country . . . . . . eventually.

I dont think anyone thinks it will be seamless but a generation is OTT.

Junkyard et al, quite interesting summary of the Treasury guarantee given over existing UK debt, which explains the rationale for taking the action:

the financial sector will relocate, probably to London. How could they not?

I need to register and , as it murdock, I decline

It's not actually

I stand corrected
Ta

I shall register and read

The FT stuff is not new (but being alphaville they try to make it a bit edgy!) It's the point I made earlier about how this actually works in practice. It does however correct the idea that somehow the existing debt is carved up and some bond holders would own rUK debt and others scottish debt. That is an absurd notion.

McCrone wrote about this at length in his book (still IMO the essential reading not the BoD) - this debt will always be owned and honoured by rUK. Scotland will pay a financial compensation in proxy. That bit is simple,

But the FT is correct on the bargaining power though.

If Scotland goes Independent, and if they retain the pound, without the Bank of England acting as guarantor (Lender of Last Resort) then the financial sector will relocate, probably to London. How could they not?

It does seem that the currency issue is a big deal on stw, and even to Alex Salmond but it doesn't seem to be such a big deal to the people of Scotland.

Only 3% and 2% of those polled respectively said EU membership or currency was most important to them in deciding how to vote in the referendum yet our politicians see these issues as priorities.

It will be interesting to see the opinion polls in a few days time but my personal opinion is that Mr Osborne has succeeded in irritating quite a few people who were going to vote no.

I am sure that you are right Gordi. As always, when grief set in there are the classic stages:

1. Denial: been there for a while (the WP is not a BOD)
2. Anger: his supporters who swallow the bully idea are here now as you indicate (Oh F it is)
3. Bargaining: where AS finds himself this morning (can we go back and start again)
4: Depression: coming soon when the truth sets in (bllx, screwed the vote up again)
5: Acceptance: sept onwards..... 😉 (pint of 90/- please Archie)

Bargaining would be exactly where Alex Salmond would have hoped to be at this stage. I dont think Messrs Osborne and Cameron planned to be pre-negotiating though.

Anger: his supporters who swallow the bully idea are here now as you indicate

Mr Osborne has succeeded in irritating quite a few people who were going to vote no.

rebel12 - Member
...So does the Scottish population have the stomach to sacrifice the comfort and stability in their own lives, to put their own lives on hold for future generations and the greater long term cause?

That's exactly why I will be voting YES.

I expect an initial period of uncertainty, mistakes, and there will be some who do well out of it and others who take a hit. The beauty is that we will be able to get rid of non performing politician because our system will be democratic and more answerable to Scotland's needs. (ie not outnumbered by SE English voters needs)

There's a lot of playing the man on this thread - all the Alex Salmond jibes. That's a waste of time.

A couple of points about that - one of the things I got taught at school a long long time ago is that when you see one side using the play the man scenario, that side is losing because they obviously don't have valid answers. So even if you haven't got the answer yourself, you know to avoid that side.

The other point is that Salmond is unlikely to be the Prime Minister of Scotland 2 elections in.

The SNP is only a small part of the independence movement, there's plenty of people from other parties involved who are temporarily aligned with the SNP, and after independence there's no need to vote SNP any longer.

Mind you the way the LibDems and Labour are behaving, they may be on the nose for a long time - this is a country where grudges are held for hundreds of years - so unless there's a cull at the top of those parties, they may be gifting the SNP a few bonus elections.

That's your own affair - as it should be. Far from revelling in Salmond being caught offside in the currency affair, i really don't care about whether it makes him look bad or not. My only interest is that the UK does not enter an agreement so fraught with risk for so little potential return as a formal Currency Agreement with Scotland. What you do after that is of little concern to me.
I will be frank, i want Scotland out of the Union. If the NO vote wins in September i fear this issue will rumble on and on, creating continuing uncertainty in the UK & on the wider markets. It wont do the UK any good so its best if Scotland goes now.
I truly believe Scotland can & will be a successful & vibrant Nation & i look forward to seeing that happen.
So long as my taxes aren't backing up the gambles of a Scots Govt/banking system I'm all for it.

It does seem that the currency issue is a big deal on stw, and even to Alex Salmond but it doesn't seem to be such a big deal to the people of Scotland.

There is no doubt in my mind that Salmond will suffer from the Churchill effect. "Aye ta for winning the war,now see ya!" The problem that will rumble on in the event of a no vote is that despite any claims of good bridge playing from them,the amount of anti-Westminster sentiment that the no campaign are building is significant. And that is among the home owning teachers I work with. I have asked the English pro union supporters on this thread to share with me on several occasions the positives that retaining the union offers,hell in a perfect world they would be examples used by the no campaign..Still waiting...Westminster have created an atmosphere in this campaign that will be a very,very long time fading.
For the record,I'm not a fan of Alex Salmond,however l feel the likes of thm etc do him a huge disservice by assuming this is just a power trip for him. He has devoted his life to the nationalist cause and this is his overriding focus.

Konabunny

"The public are morons"

Sheesh,isn't it awful when people make up their own mind?

I think places like this are an example of the benefits of union. I have already said that give it 5 or 10 years, forums won't be Scottish enough for many. Too many topics like riding at Swinley or the Lakes, or politics that won't affect us. I enjoy hearing the views of a cross section of the UK and others further afield. We will likely see an STW.scot that would allow us to back slap each other about the unequalled quality of riding on offer, or discussions on the merits of the Forfar bridie. Life will change massively, not just the politicians we see on the television, but the papers we read and the programs we watch, websites we will congregate around. Sure, UK based media and views will be available but others have made it clear what the think of the BBC for example, while forgetting it is not bad. I wait with baited breath to see the neutrality of SBC news.

Life in the UK I really find is not that bad, in fact I find it on the whole pretty decent. There is a wealth of differing opinions, however I feel there is more linking us than seperating us. I find the "subjugation", "we are a doormat" stuff really tiresome.

Politically it has been stated that people will not forget Labour standing side by side with the Tories on currency union. The Lib Dems are already dead as are the Tories. These parties will flounder for a lengthy period following a yes vote. We have only one real choice. I worry about the poor judge of character of many fellow Scots. They vote for independence but will get a wolf in sheeps clothing, with a ready made blame figure if he does not get his way.

If the vote is no, then independence supporters always have the chance to do this again in a few years. The people with the most to worry about post Yes are No voting Scots. I hope that people do not decide to vote yes because we can't have a currency union. That would be like demanding a piece of your neighbours garden, then setting fire to your house when they refuse. I am not keen to be in that house when it burns.

athgray - Member
...They vote for independence but will get a wolf in sheeps clothing, with a ready made blame figure if he does not get his way...

We keep hearing allegations of this nature. How Salmond is going to be king of Scotland or dictator or suchlike.

I've been watching him for a while and haven't seen any imperial signs.

Is there any evidence for this, or are you simply repeating just another of the Project Fear slurs?

If the vote is no, then independence supporters always have the chance to do this again in a few years.

English pro union supporters on this thread

It'd be interesting to see some updated polling on this, purely rUK polling. Divided up into the respective regions (I say regions to include the different regions of England, and North and South Wales for that matter).

I have already said that give it 5 or 10 years, forums won't be Scottish enough for many

I'm trying to work out if you're being serious or not.

There are already people from all over the world on this forum - sure it's UK-based, but that's the internet for you. And especially in a website about trails and things that won't move after independence, why on earth would Scottish people want their own website?

Anyhow, I'm off to troll the US framebuilding forums 😉

I'd be interested to see how 'pro union' the electorate in the UK actually is - i think many would be surprised. Certainly, of all the people i know & have expressed a viewpoint it is overwhelmingly for Scotland to leave. In fact, i only know two people who are pro union & they are both Scots.

Ben,any good links for US framebuilders? I do likey gazing at rivendells etc.

OT, but does anyone has any good links for oil/gas import export data for the current UK?

And data on what would be the rUK capacity for importing would be, specifically from outside what is currently the UK?

One extra thing, I know the oil card is overplayed. But can anyone tell me what the total oil production of what would be an iScotland (on the most recent figures) as a % of the total consumption (per annum) of the EU.

I seem to remember seeing a figure somewhere between 1.5% and 4%. No idea where, or it's accuracy.

Ben,any good links for US framebuilders? I do likey gazing at rivendells etc.

For forums, there's:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/
http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php/229-Framebuilders
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/

Individual framebuilders there's lots, but I like this guy's work for a start:
http://www.tomiicycles.com

epicyclo, I have already posted evidence to that effect previously.

muddy. I am a pro union member of the UK electorate. Despite how it may appear here, so are a significant number of people living in Scotland.

I notice on several occasions that pro independence comments and literature like to portray the UK as England. It suits their cause to portray it that way.

Recent yes campaign literature asked the question, "What will become of the UK after independence?"
The conclusion was that it would be ok, however only mentioned England throughout, whilst showing a picture of the St George flag.

Are there yes and no heartlands in Scotland?
Or is it just purely down to choice?

From what i have seen, there is a bigger sense of dis-union south of the Border than in Scotland. How much of this is a sense of exasperation with the issue, & what it will mean in the future i don't know.
I doubt it would result in any serious movement to leave the Union though because - as has been mentioned before - Scotland really doesn't figure that highly in our day to day thoughts despite the claims of some that we are desperate to hold onto Scotland. Most are indifferent or leaning towards a 'you know where the door is, close it behind you on the way out' position.
I feel sorry for pro Union Scots, they appear to be caught between the rhetoric of the Nats & a rising sense of exasperation down South. I think the only way forward is to make a clean break now, stand or fall on your own feet & we shall do likewise.

OT, but does anyone has any good links for oil/gas import export data for the current UK?

Euan Mearns has loads of good stuff on energy on his blog.

http://euanmearns.com/

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I feel sorry for pro Union Scots, they appear to be caught between the rhetoric of the Nats & a rising sense of exasperation down South.

I think also quite a few pro-Union Scots* also don't quite understand that the Union they love perhaps doesn't love them back. This is (I think) a spoof video but it gets the point across:

https://vidd.me/aF7

*And I would be pro-Union if the Union hadn't changed. We have a lot of shared history, Scotland used to proudly describe itself as North Britain. What's happened is not that Scotland is breaking away, it's that the nature of the Union has changed - the rise of the City and the death by a thousand cuts of the manufacturing base, the increasing move rightwards of all political parties, these things have moved the rest of the UK away from where Scotland was and is.

^ the problem is that it isn't just Britain that has changed, but the World, which is why there is likely to be a demoralising surprise for the yes campaign should they happen to succeed.

The comments to that video are quite enlightening - not. If those anti-English comments are anything to go by the sooner we dissolve the Union the better.

The comments to that video are quite enlightening - not. If those anti-English comments are anything to go by the sooner we dissolve the Union the better.

You must know that reading the comments on Youtube or any video site is a bad idea? 😉

[quote=konabunny ]The public are morons.

Isn't that what AS is relying on?

Those comments were like the Daily Mail cycling section! 😆

Indeed citing You tube comments as a reason for union disillusion - that is what you have suggested all along in these debates anyway iirc - is daft.

Was a lighthearted comment Junky, but my point remains. Scotland leaving the Union will in the long run be the best option for the Union. The continuing uncertainty and unrest that the Nats are determined to commit to in the event of a NO vote will not be conducive to the long term health of the UK. If the vote would put the issue to bed one way or another then that would be one thing, but the Nats aren't going to let it lie should they lose in September & for that i think it is best for the UK you go as soon as is practical.

Given the near 50/50 divide of the populous on the issue it is unlikely to go away whatever way the vote goes - be it an EU or Scots referendum
We have had referendum on both issue in the 70's and it has not gone away.

the Nats aren't going to let it lie should they lose in September

Its not a nats or a Unionist thing IMHO its just the issue generates strong opinions

Those comments were like the Daily Mail cycling section!

Speaking of the DM, their leader today is interesting...