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You cannot be accusing of us apathy 😉
It is a fair point you have made
ATG, no voters don't need to say much. YS is doing a great job at explaining why everyone should vote NO - his own policy recommendations (the ones that stand up to scrutiny) all point one way ie, NO.
No need to engage in/with the additional nonsense as it only legitimises it.
Boring day 99 though. Gordon Brown or nothing.....errrrr,.....nothing please.
aracer+1.
Are we now to believe that polls are being fiddled, and that few actually intend voting no?
No - but I think also we place too much faith in polls. They're never marvellously accurate at the best of times, and this is an extraordinary situation. There's never been a referendum like this in the UK, so there's no previous data to analyse. Turnout looks like it's going to be massive - that's unprecedented in modern times too, and of course it's very hard to predict how someone will vote if they've never voted before.
We live in interesting times - when have you ever seen town hall meetings all over the country packed out night after night, with people wanting to talk politics? When has any other election in recent times got everyone this interested?
To be fair Ben, the BBC article's pretty clear how little confidence they have in the polls.
rUk will base its response on what iS does..stated position of rUK. Given they let the Irish in i think we will be safe.
iS and Ireland are in totally different positions: UK and Ireland have a treaty that provides for mutual voting, travel and residency rights. Everything's up for grabs between UK and iS as long as iS isn't an EU member state.
Polls? Only relevant when they tell the story that suits your agenda!!!! 😉
What, you mean like a continual shift towards Yes? 😉
To be fair, since January they seem to have been largely static give or take a point or two.
When are the next high yes polls due out?
Wings/Newsnet Panelbase being the best examples.
To be fair Ben, the BBC article's pretty clear how little confidence they have in the polls.
The article does no such thing, which presumably is why the BBC has a dedicated interactive page on the issue of Scottish independence opinion polls.
In fact they describe the polls as "important". They do however caution at oversimplification and assuming that they predict exactly what will happen on polling day, pointing out that they are "temperature readings valid at the time they are taken" and that other factors need to be taken into consideration. All perfectly sensible remarks.
Opinion polls do have a margin of error and they occasionally get things very wrong but there's a reason why organizations, including political parties (although they always claim not to be unduly concerned about them), pay large amounts of money to have them commissioned - they are extremely useful in gauging public opinion.
And let's be clear what we are talking about here with regards to opinion polls covering Scottish independence - every single opinion poll, as far as I'm aware, from every single polling organization, has placed the No campaign in front.
Now even if you allow for a huge margin of error it is quite frankly ridiculous for the Yes camp to pretend that there is no need for concern.
There is of course still time for things to change dramatically but time [i]is[/i] starting to run out and all the evidence suggests that something substantial is needed to shift things in the Yes camp's favour.
It's still winnable for the Yes camp imo and I would be surprised if it doesn't at least end up much closer than the polls are currently predicting, but it's rather silly for Yes supporters to pretend that everything is just hunky dory.
Time to start panicking ! 🙂
ernie_lynch - MemberThe article does no such thing,
"This campaign will be a real test for the polling companies themselves.
You would think, given the choice is simply "Yes" or "No", that the challenge to produce accurate figures would be relatively simple; but predicting the same "Yes" or "No" choice in the 2011 UK referendum on the Alternative Vote system caused some pollsters grief.
The September referendum has no precedent for the pollsters to measure their 2014 poll results against.
We need to keep that in mind as the campaign develops and the tide of opinion polls sweeps over all of us."
From the article : "Individual polls are important"
Funny comment to make if claiming to have 'little confidence' in the polls.
As I said : They do however caution at oversimplification and assuming that they predict exactly what will happen on polling day.
Time to start panicking !
Funny how it's the No camp who seem to be doing the panicking, then - repeatedly lying then being caught out, hiring expensive PR companies to completely rebrand themselves, having a big spat between the "leaders" about whether Cameron should debate Salmond, etc etc.
In no way is it in the bag for either side. I waver between optimism that Scots are smart enough to choose the Yes option, and pessimism that too many Scots are too scared, servile or self-interested to do so.
I think it's encouraging that, every time there's a debate in a school, college or community centre, it starts off with a No majority and ends with a Yes majority.
Funny how it's the No camp who seem to be doing the panicking....
If No camp are panicking then it would indeed be funny peculiar. The evidence suggests that it's the Yes camp that should be doing the panicking.
And if as you suggest "every time there's a debate in a school, college or community centre, it starts off with a No majority and ends with a Yes majority" then you better get your finger out - time's running out.
I can't imagine why within an 80 year time frame the nats have left it to the final days before a referendum to make the case for independence.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27793967 ]JK Rowling says No[/url] Given she knows a thing or two about writing fantasy fiction, that's a poor review for the White Paper then.
Probably more to do with she's friends with Alastair Darling.
bencooper - MemberProbably more to do with she's friends with Alastair Darling.
Or as she herself says:
"The more I listen to the 'Yes' campaign, the more I worry about its minimisation and even denial of risks. Whenever the big issues are raised - our heavy reliance on oil revenue if we become independent, what currency we'll use, whether we'll get back into the EU - reasonable questions are drowned out by accusations of 'scaremongering'".The statement also said: "I also know that there is a fringe of nationalists who like to demonise anyone who is not blindly and unquestionably pro-independence and I suspect, notwithstanding the fact that I've lived in Scotland for 21 years and plan to remain here for the rest of my life, that they might judge me 'insufficiently Scottish' to have a valid view."
Some great tweets rolling in about it, I'm genuinely not sure if they are satirizing the situation or not.
Becky Ford ?@orknip 12m.@jk_rowling millionaires may be better-together but the rest of us want the chance to build a better, fairer future. #indyref #YES
Blair Knapp ?@KnappBlair 17m@jk_rowling how much homeless and poor could you have helped with 1million pounds ?? Instead you've backed Tories well done you #scum
Stephen Dobbie ?@DobbieStephen 1m@Daily_Record @jk_rowling much tax did she save on her millions this year....but she's never had to struggle frm day 2 day in her life
Kieran Psyl ?@Kieran_Psyl 2mWhy don't you come to Scotland and visit a couple foodbanks, @jk_rowling? Tell those people that we're Better Together.
Jason Campbell @jcampbell1888 · 1h**** you JK Rowling you whore
Rob Dean ?@Rob_Dean1314 50s@jk_rowling judas
Ross McCafferty ?@RossMcCaff 1mMy favourite so far RT @gazzabhoy1980: **** j k rowling and that wee gadge harry potter
robbie burns ?@stephenkidd56 2m@blairmcdougall @jk_rowling Money would've been more appreciated by food bank charity's as will my YES vote
but she's never had to struggle frm day 2 day in her life
she was a single mother living on benefits and actively does not avoid paying tax.
and I thought STW as vitriolic.....not going to on twitter then
Funny how it's the No camp who seem to be doing the panicking,
The evidence suggests that it's the Yes camp that should be doing the panicking.
Well this should be fun
TBH neither side is panicking and both are doing what they have done from the start. Little has changed on the ground opinion wise though yes have gained a ;little but are still behind
The undecided are still going to decide it as the others [ yes and no], as this thread shows, are somewhat entrenched in their views and wont be swayed
Saying anything else is an STW squabble.
@ben She is an intelligent woman and she makes many valid points. Her personal friendship is probably driven by her political views.
Her piece is worth reading and worth reading twice.
[url= http://www.jkrowling.com/en_GB/#/news-events ]JK Rowling on Scottish Independence[/url]
Her personal friendship is probably driven by her political views.
You mean that her pro-Union views aren't based on a personal friendship with Alastair Darling as bencooper suggests ?
She's got her own independent views which aren't dictated to her by Alastair Darling ?
What's all that about then ?
After the comments a few pages back about the extent of abuse received by the Yes campaigners I suppose to go with the tweets re. JK Rowling above we could add [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10891229/Alex-Salmonds-office-implicated-in-smear-attack-on-mother-who-spoke-up-for-the-Union.html ]this sorry tale[/url].
I was wondering when that would come up 😉
She was portrayed as an "ordinary person" - she isn't. This was pointed out. One person on Twitter appears to have called her a Quisling, which wasn't nice.
This is the standard Better Together technique - get caught fibbing, complain about hordes of online cybernats abusing them to distract from the fibs, go quiet when asked to produce evidence of the abuse. Rinse and repeat.
get caught fibbing, complain about hordes of online cybernats abusing them to distract from the fibs
What are you accusing her of lying about ? Being a normal/ordinary person/mother ?
A senior special adviser to Salmond has accused her of being the daughter-in-law of someone who she claims to have never met, are you suggesting that she is wrong to complain about that ?
Ms Lally said Mr Salmond visited her home
The bitch is a double agent!!!
It's her money and she's entitled to her opinion.
Maybe the money could be used to bus in some Scottish Labour stooges to the public debates that BT constantly refuse to attend.
So... how many people in this thread actually have a vote?
So... how many people in this thread actually have a vote?
We've done this before - on average the people who have a vote are on the Yes side, the people who don't have a vote are on the No side. There are notable exceptions of course.
me
My wife and I do.So... how many people in this thread actually have a vote?
I spoke to someone this week who said she "liked the idea of independence" but "didn't have faith in Scots to run our country".
"What happens to my driving licence and passport?"
"How much does that cost me if I need to change them?"
"I don't trust him to run the country"
This lady is a very outgoing and seemingly self-confident person who has built up her own successful small business over the past 8 years and this makes me find her outlook all the more depressing.
Ultimately, Scotland will get what it deserves. I really fear for a No vote.
All the gnashing of teeth is just distraction. The question should be very simple. Should the country govern itself or not?
I'm sure it will be a No. The combination of those fearful of change, those self-loathing Scots who think we are incapable, and the combination of the mass media being generally against it will, I think, be too much to overcome.
Example, my own mother refuses to vote Yes because "Salmond is a wee Hitler" and "he'll let the Asians take over".
You can't reason with that mindset.
Meanwhile a small business owner was just assaulted (for real, not someone being nasty on Twitter) for displaying a Yes sticker in his window. Police have got the CCTV.
Will he get a big splash in tomorrow's papers?
But then you can't reason either with a mindset that dismisses as bullying, or whatever, any view other than your own. The iS campaign has done that so much it is as much of a turnoff as the No campign's lack of imagination.
I keep hoping for something more useful with which to consider which way to vote but at the moment it is all heat and no light. So it is back to the White Paper which is so thin it isn't enough for a soap script let alone the formation of a state.
Example, my own mother refuses to vote Yes because "Salmond is a wee Hitler" and "he'll let the Asians take over".
I had a funny discussion with my windowcleaner - known him for over 12 years, really nice decent bloke, but he just announced that he'd voted UKIP in the last elections because he's worried about immigration. However he's voting Yes because he thinks an independent Scotland will be better able to control it.
We can all pontificate, the two sides can try to shape the debate, but people will vote because of the strangest reasons.
I'm sure it will be a No. The combination of those fearful of change, those self-loathing Scots who think we are incapable, and the combination of the mass media being generally against it will, I think, be too much to overcome.
I see you missed out those people that genuinely believe we're all better off in the union.
If I was Scottish and voting no I'd be calling you swears.
Well, apart from being factually wrong, since she isn't the daughter in law of Pat Lally as they had claimed (oops, people in glass houses accusing other people of fibbing eh!)
How do you think that his actions fitted in with the civil service code Ben?
And as for the abuse that doesn't exist, yes, clearly its all in their head, no abuse of JK Rowling, nothing to see here, move along people...
voted UKIP in the last elections because he's worried about immigration. However he's voting Yes because he thinks an independent Scotland will be better able to control it.
Brilliant - so does that make him a Little Scotlander? or is he only voting UKIP because he's impressionable and the BBC have been beaming in Farage from abroad, whilst supposedly also brainwashing people to vote No?
those self-loathing Scots
Nice. The Zionists call any Jew who refuses to embrace their racist brutal regime "self-haters". It's such an easy cop out.
ninfan - Member
Brilliant - so does that make him a Little Scotlander? or is he only voting UKIP because he's impressionable and the BBC have been beaming in Farage from abroad, whilst supposedly also brainwashing people to vote No?
Remind me what % of the vote UKIP got in England again?
One person on Twitter appears to have called her a Quisling, which wasn't nice.
It's a better class of insult than you normally get on Twitter, tbf.
It was followed by lots of people asking what a Quisling was 😉
Interesting the abuse she suffered and the notoriety. The Wier's (euro-millions winners) have given the YS campaign £5.5m and it's hardly mentioned. Now it's clearly their money to do with what they want but their charitable foundation just gave out £150k for various Scottish projects (avg £2,500 each) and it does seem bizarre to give so much more for a referendum campaign.
Interesting the abuse she suffered and the notoriety.
We're talking about two different people here. The person who was described by a nat as : “A liar now and forever whatever the outcome of the vote, a known Quisling and collaborator” was Claire Lally.
The person who doesn't pay her taxes and has "never had to struggle frm day 2 day in her life" is JK Rowling.
Beware, the nats ill-informed character assassinations extend beyond one person.
The Wier's (euro-millions winners) have given the YS campaign £5.5m and it's hardly mentioned.
😯
Etc etc
They got a lot of abuse, and from proper newspapers not idiots on Twitter.
@ernie - I was referring to some of the Tweets posted earlier, they looked quite abusive to me. Plus some stuff I've seen on other news websites under the article covering her donation.
Ben, jambalaya claim was that the Wier have given the YS campaign £5.5m and it's hardly mentioned. I'm not not sure why you presumably think that giving 5 examples of where it has been mentioned undermines that claim. Nor can I see the the abuse that the Wiers got from "proper newspapers not idiots on Twitter". Which newspapers were those ?