[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

I miss elfinsafety he would have been fun on this subject.

"its the class war innit"

@kona/@duckman - yes I appreciate the UK has been one of the most flexible countries in terms of dual nationality. The Dutch for example do not allow you to hold citizenship of another EU country. Mrs T tried to downgrade the citizenship of the Falkland Islanders in the years running up to the war. So unlikely yes but possible.

@ben, very good again, on a roll today

[quote=aracer ]Junkyard  » What do you mean purely theoretical - its a real power they can withdraw it.....can i say straw man pretty please
Hang on, I saw a good response to that recently - oh here we go:
Brilliant we are now discussing fantastical what if scenarios

They clearly can withdraw the power so it is an actual power. Its theoretical what if only if we discuss whether they will or they wont ;whether they can is not theoretical they can end of debate.
An amusing sidestep that almost glossed over your wrongness 😉

aracer - Member
"bencooper » At the moment, with the way Westminster is set up, the process is not fair and democratic."
Are we back onto the House of Lords thing again?

Go on then, convince us that load of freeloading parasites are democracy in action.

(You'll notice I have no bias 🙂 )

Apparently because of the purely theoretical power of the UK government to revoke devolution. It seems Ben et al would actually be happy with just a constitutional change which made no practical difference whatsoever.

Or happy with a change that makes you worse off than before - main levers now controlled by a foreign government. Brilliant, but at least "we chose that."

Not a bad chat on all this here

http://www.politicscymru.com/en/cat2/article9/

Are you saying that currently scotlands main levers are not being controlled by the foreign country and they got the govt they voted for 😉

It is interesting but to put it bluntly if the UK can takea way the power it is devolution if they cannot it is federalism
It is a fudge of apiece
Interesting and yes there are similarities

Living together is similar to being married but it is not being married.

Devolved is a bit like federalism but it is not federalism
Not really any wriggle room.

Can you have devolved federalism ? Genuine Q btw? Cannot think of anywhere.

molgrips - Member
...I mean really - why? The concept of nationhood is really just nominal...
I think even the so called "Proud Scots" would argue with you on that.

Go on then.

You really need a dictionary Molly

This is what happens if we all feign confusion over the meanings of words we all understand.
Granted it is not trolling but I have no idea what it or what purpose it serves.

[quote=Junkyard ]They clearly can withdraw the power so it is an actual power. Its theoretical what if only if we discuss whether they will or they wont

OK, let's do that then. There's not a cat in hells chance of them doing so IMHO. Under what circumstances do you think such power will be withdrawn?

Not only has it happened, it was the Lords who did it:

http://www.scottishenergynews.com/lords-axe-holyroods-power-over-scottish-renewables/

So that's the unelected House of Lords removing powers from the democratically elected Scottish Parliament.

There's not a cat in hells chance of them doing so IMHO. Under what circumstances do you think such power will be withdrawn?

They can and it is not federalism- one of the few areas where we have a facts to work with.

FWIW I do agree they would be unlikely to do this but there is nothing to stop them which is the point .

[quote=Junkyard ]The allegation is they cannot not that they choose not to

Is it? I suggested it was theoretical.

Would you care to argue that the power of the Queen to deny royal assent to laws or deny parliament the right to assemble is any more than theroetical?

So that's the unelected House of Lords removing powers from the democratically elected Scottish Parliament

The Lords can propose amendments or delay matters but the Parliament Act stops them from defying the will of the Commons. If you're going to direct your anger at Westminster, at least get the right bit.

Here is what you said

because of the purely theoretical power of the UK government to revoke devolution

They can and they have.
I have nothing further to say as you are not this daft and I am not that interested .....for once 😉

This is what happens if we all feign confusion over the meanings of words we all understand.

I'm not feigning anything. I'm trying to explain that the concept of nationhood is arbitrary.

[quote=Junkyard ]Its amusing you wish to move the goalposts to an entirely different pitch to discuss the Queen [ gawd bless her]

It was an analogy rather than anything to do with badgers.

Someone is certainly badgering someone here* 😉

* is not a treasonous euphemism Ma'am.

This is what happens if we all feign confusion over the meanings of words we all understand.

😆

Good to see how in the political utopia that is Holyrood, that freedom of info and honest debate is valued so much higher than in Westminster...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/10850525/SNP-uses-majority-to-stifle-criticism-of-Alex-Salmonds-EU-membership-stance.html

And who was mentioning the fact that AS has a long standing tradition of suppressing debate and opposition? Still, it's only a little issue like Europe.

It is such a revelation to see a political party spinning stuff to suit their agenda and I am shocked beyond words to discover this sort of thing goes on...thankfully only in the SNP and Holyrood though

@Junkyard it's a bit more than spinning when you delete evidence and conclusions from a supposedly independent report which don't support your view.

I also read this piece after reading the link posted by @thm [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10850366/Scotlands-universities-prevented-from-speaking-out-against-independence.html ]Scottish Universities Preventing from speaking out against indepence[/url]

I was surprised the SNP is claiming Scottish universities would still receive a disproportionate amount of UK Cancer Research funding post independence. I would have thought they would receive zero. That would certainly be my preference, we have plenty of English, Welsh and Northern Irish universities which would appreciate the funding. Why send the money abroad.

The Vote No Borders mob are continuing with their cinema adverts, the latest just blatantly lies:

NHS Scotland has always been totally independent of NHS England, and there are already cross-border agreements on funding treatment. Unfortunately political adverts are exempt from ASA regulation, so it's not possible to complain about them.

it's a bit more than spinning when you delete evidence and conclusions from a supposedly independent report which don't support your view

NHS Scotland has always been totally independent of NHS England, and there are already cross-border agreements on funding treatment. Unfortunately political adverts are exempt from ASA regulation, so it's not possible to complain about them.

I've just watched that video three times and I still can't hear the bit where anybody mentions funding treatment!

On the point that they did mention - why on earth do you think someone from iS would be allowed to take the waiting list place of an rUK patient after independence?

Its good old Granny flat independence again

They're saying that the NHS now is UK-wide (it isn't) and that after independence you won't be able to have treatment at specialist hospitals in the rUK (you will).

and that after independence you won't be able to have treatment at specialist hospitals in the rUK

No, they didn't say that, listen again - they said that you'd be back of the queue with the other foreigners on the waiting list, not that you wouldn't be able to have treatment in the rUK

The clue was in the phrase "they can join the long list of foreigners waiting to be seen" rather than "no, you won't be able to"

There are long-standing cross-border agreements between all Eurpoean countries - it's not like Scots would go to the back of the list at all. Equally, all the English patients who come to Scotland for treatment would be able to do so.

Not on shared waiting lists!

I can get short term treatment in France with my EHIC card, I don't get sent over to get treatment on their waiting list because ours is full!

don't tell me - continued access to rUK waiting lists is another thing that Alex and his crack team will be able to negotiate in the 18 months after the referendum because it will be in both nations interests to continue with the current system 😆

Its certainly a positive message as to why the union is ace
Stay or your children die

With the wholesale privatisation of the NHS South of the border, hoping things stay the same after a No vote is very optimistic.

Ben, there is no need to wordy about NHS Scotland - it is in very good hands with Alex Neil. After all ...

A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “The Health Secretary has acted entirely appropriately at every single stage of the process regarding mental health service provision across NHS Lanarkshire and all of the key information in this case has already been in the public domain for a very long time."

You are lucky to have a service and responsible MSPs to be proud off. We should be so lucky in rUK.

With the wholesale privatisation of the NHS South of the border

And the NO campaign are accused of scaremongering! Have you a copy of the privatisation prospectus? I missed it's publication? Hope it does better than Saga yesterday. The IPO market looks a little soggy.

I haven't paid an awful lot of attention to the Alex Neil thing - what did he do wrong? He saved some wards from closing, didn't he?

Even if he did do something wrong, that's a rubbish argument against independence - by that argument, Neil Hamilton is a good reason for independence.

So you don't think the NHS in a England isn't being privatised by stealth? You think it's safe in Tory hands?

I think you will be doing well to get a reply from THM never mind a balanced one 😉
Re the tories given they said they would not do any reforms to the NHS and they then did another top down reform at some considerable costs few would believe a word they say on the NHS but yes they have not said they would privatise the NHS. Personally i doubt the electorate would let them but some of them would like to try.
Ben basically the claim is he intervened to keep wards open in his constituency and this was a conflict of interest between him as a minister and as an MSP. He told them he wished it to stay open but then left the decision to another minister- the issue is whether he declared the conflict of interest

Scotland's ministerial code says that ministers taking decisions which affect their constituencies "should advise the permanent secretary" to ensure there is no "conflict of interest".
Mr Neil clung on to his job as health minister on Wednesday following a vote of no confidence which was backed by every opposition party in Holyrood but defeated thanks to an SNP majority.

Basically I think we are in agreement that we dont really trust politicians to behave honourably or to tell the truth. Now on that point THM did you explain how the SNP were worse than UKIP? how are you marking that essay that makes that claim and then presents no evidence Teacher Sir?
To say that and then then attack the BBC for hyperbole was a beautiful piece of satire.

DP

You think it's safe in Tory hands?

And whats that got to do with independence?

By your own admission the NHS in Scotland is run separately from E&W under devolved powers, so [i]even[/i] if the Evil Tories did privatise it (which they won't) they can't privatise the Scottish NHS

Anyway, 4 years into their 5 year term the Evil Tories need to get a crack on with this mass sell off of the NHS that they were supposedly planning when they got into power, back when there was only 24 hours to save the NHS? I mean you would have thought they would make hay while the sun shined, and taken the opportunity to sell it when all those scandals came out about people dying in shit encrusted corridors under Labour, or when it came out that Andy Burnham had been covering up excess death rates in 14 NHS trusts - but no, it seems that it hasn't happened, it was all just another big old Labour scare story (project fear again!) and the one financial basketcase hospital that was put out to private (well, employee co-operative) contract has not only started to break even, but has just won an award as best hospital in the country - while at the same time NHS Scotland have been missing their targets and showed up for fiddling the figures by dropping people off the waiting list because they weren't willing to go to England for treatment 😆

Ben, - few pages back, I was criticised for highlighting the fact that the SNP had a track record of suppressing dissent that falsified the idea that Scottish policies were somehow above the normal skullduggery associated with "normal" politics. Several posters have suggested that there will be little change in this respect come a possible yes vote, and this has been rejected by yS supporters. That rejection in light of these two pieces of news above seems somewhat hasty. AS makes Mandleson look a mere novice in the dark arts.

The Scottish press has more details on Mr Neil than I will ever know! But for the rest of us are you arguing wholesale privatisation or privatisation by stealth?

(Sorry if you are hungry, but I simply don't waste time in feeding, you should have got that by now.....)

AS makes Mandleson look a mere novice in the dark arts.

But for the rest of us are you arguing wholesale privatisation or privatisation by stealth?

(Sorry if you are hungry, but I simply don't waste time in feeding, you should have got that by now.....)

Out of interest how would you mark the the answer when you challenged them to explain their thinking and they said just said troll?
Well teacher sir?

You cannot justify much of what you say therefore you dont even try and just do lame name calling/passive aggressive stuff.
I would assume - seeing as you reported duckman for his choice of words- you have reported me by now and I have had no correspondence. No one else accuses me of trolling you but you, lets see how you deal with that evidence.
I am attempting to hold your view to some sort of of reasonable/rational standard. You have the intelligence to not try to justify your more extreme outpourings to me or to ernie. If i was to say what it said about you character then you would call troll 😉

You know you cannot reasonably justify what you said hence i have to sit here being called a troll because you cannot apologise or defend your own utterances. On so many levels poor

FWIW i have agreed with you on many other threads - even the UKIP one till you said that - if i was trolling you i would attack everything you said rather than just the OTT stuff you say.

I have no idea what it is about this issue or SIr BS of Eck that leads you to this place where you just despise him and hate him and make outlandish claims about him and the SNP.

Several posters have suggested that there will be little change in this respect come a possible yes vote, and this has been rejected by yS supporters.

I am happy to accept that Scottish politicians can be as devious, duplicitous and deceptive as any at Westminster.

However, they are elected under a parliamentary system which makes them much more accountable, and much easier to remove. The SNP majority is an aberration - it's likely that most Scottish governments will be coalitions.

To repeat what's been said many times - independence isn't about this politician or that, it's not about the next election or the next year. It's about the next 10, 50, 100 years. It's about changing the system, not worrying about the individual players.

Well I hope you are correct Ben.

To repeat what's been said many times - independence isn't about this politician or that, it's not about the next election or the next year. It's about the next 10, 50, 100 years. It's about changing the system, not worrying about the individual players.

Two hours earlier:

So you don't think the NHS in a England isn't being privatised by stealth? You think it's safe in Tory hands?

It's perfectly possible to be both worried about current events, and step back to look at the bigger picture.

You mean your long term 'changing the system' hundred year plan, is flexible long as you can keep playing project fear with the Evil Tory bogeyman 😆

Face it, half the Yes campaign has been old fashioned PW's throwing their dollies out the pram because they didn't get the result they wanted in the general election!

The IPO market looks a little soggy.

the Evil Tory bogeyman

After independence I'm sure we'll have our own Evil Tories - and they might even do better than at present.

Face it, half the Yes campaign has been old fashioned PW's throwing their dollies out the pram because they didn't get the result they wanted in the general election!

If I knew what a PW was I could comment. Making up acronyms which no-one else understands - are you sure you're not THM?