[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

Cheers Stands corrected/informed however you wish to say it

Having just had a rather nice and long lunch, I can enjoy NWs response in good spirit. Scottish/French restaurant - haggis starter with a nip of whisky, (half drunk, half in the haggis - mmmmmm, brings out the flavour perfectly) with a Scottish host. A very educated Scot as demonstrated by his intended voting intentions 😉

But I do love the notion of feeling/being empowered to hand over power and sovereignty to a foreign power. A brilliant twist.

But I do love the notion of feeling/being empowered to hand over power and sovereignty to a foreign power. A brilliant twist.

Jamb, restaurant only a 10min walk from your office. I will send you the details. 😉

10 years since I last had a (decent) plate of haggis - the non deep fried version! And as a starter with a wee dram. Enough to make me change sides - almost!

@ben I'd be quite surprised if the anti EU support in Scotland was much different than it is in the UK

"I'd be quite surprised if the anti EU support in Scotland was much different than it is in the UK"

Ukip have 10% in Scotland,up from 7% because of Cameron visiting this week (seriously,Tory party down 3% in 7 days) Yougov have ukip dropping down from 30% to 24% in the last week in England. So a significant difference.

So if you are opposed to the EU you must be a UKIP supporter ? Where on earth do you get that logic from ?

I am totally opposed to the EU and yet I wouldn't vote UKIP if it was the only political party on the ballot paper.

This recent opinion poll shows that 39% of voters wish to leave the EU, which is not a high number relative to past opinion polls on the matter - many polls have in the past shown much higher opposition to the EU, but UKIP has not in any election so far received anything approaching 39% of the vote.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/uk-britain-politics-europe-idUKBREA2A0TQ20140311

And btw an opinion poll taken in Scotland last year showed that 34% of Scots were opposed to EU membership.

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/6761-scotland-and-the-eu-the-polling-evidence

Are you suggesting that 34% of Scots might have voted UKIP ?

EDITED.

Sorry;edit for the west ham supporting churchill loving pensioner

Ukip,[b]the party who have the strongest anti europe stance[/b]have 10% in Scotland,up from 7% because of Cameron visiting this week (seriously,Tory party down 3% in 7 days) Yougov have ukip dropping down from 30% to 24% in the last week in England. So a significant difference.

The new EU members are given a take it or leave it choice, so euro, working time directive and closer integration etc.

You make it sound like that is comprised solely of bad things. I'll be voting Yes because I fancy a change from the homogenised garbage standard of politician that is on offer at present as part of the UK.

teamhurtmore - Member

But I do love the notion of feeling/being empowered to hand over power and sovereignty to a foreign power. A brilliant twist.

Do you live up a mountain, possibly surrounded by guns? Consenting to give away control is basically what the modern world's made out of. Well, that and having power taken away without consent. You do it as a cirizen and you do it as a nation- whether the UK or iScotland.

The difference here, is making it our choice, because right now it's not. And retaking the right to take that power back, which right now we do not have. And if you can mock the idea of consenting to cede control to others, what should be the response to not even having that choice in the first place? Choosing not to have that option, in fact.

The difference here, is making it our choice,

You're not making any choice about giving power away though - you're voting for independence from the UK, there's no referendum being offered on Scottish EU membership. Whys that then? Why can't the Scottish people be trusted with an EU referendum? At least the evil Tories have guaranteed the poor downtrodden rUK the right to choose their own future, its more than Alex is offering!

[quote=wanmankylung ]I'll be voting Yes because I fancy a change from the homogenised garbage standard of politician that is on offer at present as part of the UK.

I was going to comment on another post, but had to take a timeout to 😆 at this. Do you think completely different types of people will decide to become politicians in iS?

ninfan - Member

You're not making any choice about giving power away though - you're voting for independence from the UK, there's no referendum being offered on Scottish EU membership. Whys that then?

That's a decision for post-independence. You're confusing the Scottish Government position with the way it'll be, a common problem. That first election is going to include a lot of decisions like this.

onsenting to give away control is basically what the modern world's made out of. Well, that and having power taken away without consent. You do it as a cirizen and you do it as a nation- whether the UK or iScotland.

Ponders asking ernie a question about surveys but remembers where that ends up 🙄

duckman - Member

Sorry for using up to date polls

How about using opinion polls that are actually relevant to what's being discussed ?

You know, like polls which show what percentage of Scots wish to leave the EU 💡

I was going to comment on another post, but had to take a timeout to at this. Do you think completely different types of people will decide to become politicians in iS?

I suspect that we'd get a reasonable number of people who are currently Westminster politicians attempting to be elected for the Scottish Parliament (whatever it may be called then) - which would be no bad thing. The woeful MPs who represent places north of the border would probably not get elected. We would get a lot of those MPs giving up on a career in politics and following up their corporate interest so that they can stay living in London. So yes, I do think that we would get different types of people trying to be Scottish MPs than what we do trying and failing to be Westminster MPs. I also think that the first government in an independent Scotland will be a coalition of Labour and the SNP, if not a majority Labour Gov't.

Scotland has bred some great politicians. For instance Gordon Brown and Tony Blair.

[quote=duckman ]Sorry for using up to date polls

Ah, so currency (DYSWIDT?) is the only important criteria for selecting a poll to support your assertion, not whether the poll in question actually provides any data on the point being discussed?

In which case I presume you'll be pleased to see that the very latest [url= http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/05/20/comres-battlebus-poll-for-the-independent-points-to-cameron-holding-on-as-pm-next-year/ ]ComRes poll[/url] shows support for Scottish independence is rising.

How about using opinion polls that are actually relevant to what's being discussed ?

[quote=wanmankylung ]I suspect that we'd get a reasonable number of people who are currently Westminster politicians attempting to be elected for the Scottish Parliament (whatever it may be called then) - which would be no bad thing. The woeful MPs who represent places north of the border would probably not get elected.

Well they got elected by the very same electorate, so why on earth wouldn't they get elected just because the workplace would be somewhere different? If they're so woeful, why haven't they already been voted out?

We would get a lot of those MPs giving up on a career in politics and following up their corporate interest so that they can stay living in London.

Ah, so the advantage is actually getting different MPs, not a different type of MPs. I suppose this does come back to the crux of what seems to be the main argument for independence - it doesn't matter if they're corrupt incompetent MPs, so long as they're our corrupt incompetent MPs.

Maybe I should phrase the question differently - for what reason would you get a different type of person becoming an MP just because the parliament is in Edinburgh rather than London?

Have you ever watched first ministers questions? There are not many politicians that stand out. We struggle to get enough decent politicians to make a cabinet from million people, good luck doing the same from only five million.

Well they got elected by the very same electorate, so why on earth wouldn't they get elected just because the workplace would be somewhere different? If they're so woeful, why haven't they already been voted out?

I suppose this does come back to the crux of what seems to be the main argument for independence - it doesn't matter if they're corrupt incompetent MPs, so long as they're our corrupt incompetent MPs.

Maybe I should phrase the question differently - for what reason would you get a different type of person becoming an MP just because the parliament is in Edinburgh rather than London?

Erm - because there are a lot of people living in Scotland for whom living and working in London is not a price worth paying in order to become a politician.

Erm - because there are a lot of people living in Scotland for whom living and working in London is not a price worth paying in order to become a politician.

So you want people with less commitment - that's brilliant !!! 🙂

It would seem that politicians don't spend all of their time in Westminster.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/21/mps-lazy-hours-margaret-hodge ]MPs spend less time in Westminster[/url]

So you want people with less commitment - that's brilliant !!!

No - I want people who have a life balance and set of values that means they live where they want to live rather than move to somewhere they dont like just to further their career. I want people who I can relate to.

[quote=wanmankylung ]They were not in direct competition with the people who have MSP seats at the time of that vote - who is to say either way who would win a vote between the MSP and a MP for the same area.

So some of the woeful incompetent Westminster MPs might get in. Presumably all current MSPs are a beacon of light in comparison?

Erm - because there are a lot of people living in Scotland for whom living and working in London is not a price worth paying in order to become a politician.

So how many of those do you seriously think have the ambition to be an MP in Edinburgh? ISTM there are far worse things (and plenty of compensations) about being an MP!

No - I want people who have a life balance and set of values that means they live where they want to live rather than move to somewhere they dont like just to further their career.

Now I'm really confused - you're telling me that the MP for Shetland won't have to live in Edinburgh?

I want people who I can relate to.

Ah, so I was right about simply wanting "our" incompetent and corrupt MPs.

[i]I want people who have a life balance and set of values that means they live where they want to live rather than move to somewhere they dont like just to further their career.[/i]

Why should they not like London? Do all Scottish politicians not like London? Do all Scottish people not like London? I think your rampant nationalism is clouding your judgement

So some of the woeful incompetent Westminster MPs might get in. Presumably all current MSPs are a beacon of light in comparison?

For your first question - you never know. They might not be able to stick around for long though. Would Danny Alexander be voted in? Probably not....

So how many of those do you seriously think have the ambition to be an MP in Edinburgh? ISTM there are far worse things (and plenty of compensations) about being an MP!

Now I'm really confused - you're telling me that the MP for Shetland won't have to live in Edinburgh?

If they don't want to be an MP in Edinburgh nobody is forcing their hand and personally I wouldn't want any MP to be representing me if their primary goal wasn't to do their best for the people who voted them in. (But that's a completely different matter which is more about career politicians who are just in the business of feathering their nest for later life).

I've just realised I'm perfectly qualified to be a Scottish MP - I don't like London. Will you vote for me, wanmankylung?

....set of values that means they live where they want to live rather than move to somewhere they dont like just to further their career.

So only Edinburgh MSPs will live in Edinburgh then, all other MSPs will live elsewhere. Otherwise you won't like their "set of values". Apparently.

[quote=wanmankylung ]If they don't want to be an MP in Edinburgh nobody is forcing their hand

In just the same way that nobody is forcing anybody to be a Westminster MP - but I'm still not sure why London/Edinburgh makes any difference to the quality of politicians.

(But that's a completely different matter which is more about career politicians who are just in the business of feathering their nest for later life).

Presumably there are no people like that in Scotland?

No. Because I don't think your debating skills or style are anything like the required standard.

I promise I'll try and appear more stupid and corrupt if you vote for me, and do my very best not to show your claims are indefensible.

No. Because I don't think your debating skills or style are anything like the required standard.

So it's nothing to do with policies or politics then, just debating skills and styles.

Good news for Gorgeous George Galloway then.

Much like Better Together there is no substance to what he/she has to say and the main approach is to try and repeat something enough times so that people start to believe it. Very much like your own approach ernie_lynch. It's not big, it's not clever and it's frankly boring.

I've just realised I'm perfectly qualified to be a Scottish MP - I don't like London

aracer - Member
duckman » Sorry for using up to date polls
Ah, so currency (DYSWIDT?) is the only important criteria for selecting a poll to support your assertion, not whether the poll in question actually provides any data on the point being discussed?

Well,the original point was that Scotland and England share a similar view on European membership. I would suggest the way people vote would be a fairly strong indicator of their views on certain topics.Remind me what the central focus of ukip is? Maybe there's is another reason why so many of you vote for them,but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are euro skeptics, rather than anything less savoury.

So if you are opposed to the EU you must be a UKIP supporter ? Where on earth do you get that logic from ?

I cannot think of anything less empowering than being ruled by people you did not vote for

I think the key argument on Scotland vs Westminster MP's is that Scotland would be ruled by their own corrupt incompetents rather than ours.

There have been some excellent politicians from Scotland, I've no doubt that with an iS they will attract more top quality people into politics. Sadly, there will also be a big increase in hangers-on as there will be a huge increase in beaurocrats, as I posted before there will be a long list of applicants (and a long list of jobs) in the new Scottish Foreign Office

Well,the original point was that Scotland and England share a similar view on European membership

there will be a huge increase in beaurocrats

I know this is often posted as a problem with independence, but is there evidence for it? Do other smaller countries have large numbers of bureaucrats?

@ben - currently you have no foreign/diplomatic service for example, no equivalent of HMRC, DVLA. There must be some economies of scale for Scotland's interests and Civil Service leveraging off that of the wider UK. You need to create all of that. It's good as it's Scottish jobs for Scottish people and a focus purely on your interests but it has to be more expensive that at present I think.

Jambalaya - to be fair to them on that, there's also a lot of civil service jobs covering UK roles up in Scotland - there were big CSA offices up there for example, the cynic would comment that certain politicians stacked lots of jobs up there in 'pet' constituencies so that the voters were suckling off the government teat and would keep voting Labour...

I suppose its possible that you could rerole them, so you might not need [i]more[/i] staff but I don't know how much you'd have to pay out in costs of retraining and reroling for example a CSA/CMEC office into a Scottish DVLA or passport one? or even if the current staff would even have the skills/suitability (and if you did close them, who would be responsible for that decision, would the office just close or would it pass into the hands of Holyrood? think of the redundancy payments the Scottish government might have to shoulder from that)

I don't like London. Will you vote for me

@JunkYard Well provided in the last 10 years you voted for one of Labour. Lib Dem or Conservative you have been ruled by who you voted for.

Assuming it's a minority party like SNP, Greens etc then you cannot seriously expect for a national government of the colour ?

Also to say you have no representation means you view the Scottish Parliament as worthless ?

Looks like this link might be useful

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/contact-us

You need to create all of that.

We do, yes. And I'm not minimising the challenges of having to build institutions. However there's a lot we won't need - we won't need a massive MOD, for a start, nor will we need the House of Lords and all it's ancillaries. We already have quite a bit - separate health, education and legal systems, and devolution has helped too.

So while in the short term I'm sure there will be costs and disruption, in the long run I think we will actually end up saving money. Best I can find with quick googling is this graph:

[img] [/img]

So Scandinavian countries have a higher level of government jobs - that's no big surprise. The Czech and Slovak republics and New Zealand, similar in size to Scotland, have smaller numbers.

So I'd say the number of bureaucrats depends more on what kind of country it is, not the size of the country. Scandinavian countries have more because of their welfare systems.

we won't need a massive MOD, for a start,

Eh, The white paper specifically criticised Westminster for reducing the size of the MOD in Scotland:

In Scotland, the adverse consequences of Westminster's defence policies have been felt in many ways:

...Ministry of Defence employment - civilian and service - in Scotland has fallen from 24,680 in 2000 to 15,340 in 2013, a proportionately larger fall than across the UK as a whole. Consequently, Scotland's share of UK-based Ministry of Defence personnel has fallen from 9.2 per cent to 7.5 per cent over this period

Now you're saying this is a good thing 😆