[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

Yup, that sounds reasonable. Still a good economy per capita, that's all that matters.

Still a good economy per capita, that's all that matters.

And how would you guarantee that ? You have already dismissed a central pillar of the SNP's economic strategy :

[i]With regards to the corporation tax - yes, that's one reason I doubt I'd vote for the SNP in an independent Scotland.[/i]

So what is your alternative economic strategy ?

Making stuff, exporting stuff - the old-fashioned things that people used to do to make money before they tried making money from money.

We've got the oil. We've got the whisky and haggis. We've got the renewables. We've got high-tech manufacturing, software development, R&D and cutting-edge esoteric bicycle manufacturing. We'll be alright.

I don't doubt that you have haggis but what do you mean you've got renewables ? For the whole of the UK renewables account for less than 5% of total energy use, which is less than half the EU average. And your North Sea oil rivals, Norway, over 40% of their energy comes from renewables.

I would concentrate on the haggis.

EDIT : My apologies, I've just checked and you are apparently on par with Norway. So it's haggis and renewables then 🙂

[quote=teamhurtmore ](BTW, I am not a fan of nuclear weapons)

Is anybody on here going to put their hand up and admit to being one? Personally this is one point where I agree with ben et al - we would be better off not wasting all that money on the Trident replacement.

Exactly what was the point of the argument about nukes? Yes it is one advantage of independence, no we don't need them to keep our place on the head table of the UNSC. Are we finished?

I'd say not given what's gone before.

Your off subject anyway. Freedom for The County of York! We'll be happy to take the UKs place on the security council. There's no place on it these days for them that can't get stuck in to a bit of bother.

Question about this renewables business. How are we going to export this to anyone but the rUK.

And if we can export this to anyone but the rUK, what's to stop the rUK buying energy from say France? I'm aware of two inter connectors to the continent, neither particularly big in the grand scheme of things. 1GW and 2GW is it?

So why, exactly, are we spending £100bn on Trident?

it's the going rate for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

Question about this renewables business. How are we going to export this to anyone but the rUK.

At the moment there are no big interconnectors. However that's just because it's not been a priority to build any - it'll take investment, but with so many fossil fuel plants closing so it'd be a good investment.

Well that's the obvious part answered. What about the rest of the question.

Okay, other part - of course the rUK can buy electricity from anyone it likes. But with fossil fuel plants closing and not many new nuclear plants coming along, will there be a lot of spare electricity in Europe to buy?

So it's just the rUK as an export market which I did actually mention.

There's been talk of more than this.

Does anyone have a decent analysis of planned future energy production across Western Europe and anything on international integration of electrical networks?

The UK has a legally binding EU obligation to have 15% of its energy requirements come from renewables by 2020. Last year, including Scottish renewables, the UK's renewables totaled less than 5%.

So obviously if Scotland becomes independence from the rest of the UK any further investment in renewables will have to redirected from Scotland to the rest of the UK, and away from non-renewable, so that these legally binding targets can be met. I doubt that will do much good for the Scottish renewable industry.

BTW you do realise that saying we have oil, haggis, renewables, etc, doesn't amount to having an economic strategy, don't you ? I did ask what would be your preferred economic strategy since you reject a central pillar of the SNP's economic strategy ?

The reality is that should Scotland become independence from the rest of the UK one of the likely consequences of that is that there will be a corporation tax war competition between the two, especially if there is a Tory government in Westminster.

This will undeniably lead to cuts in government expenditure and of course social provisions, public sector employment, etc. And all the promises of increased social provisions being made by the SNP will become a distant memory.

The SNP is embroiled in a racism row after one of its student leaders publicly called David Cameron an “English t”.

Roisin McLaren, president of Edinburgh University’s SNP branch, said that she had ignored the Prime Minister’s pleas to save the Union because it was “an English t telling us all what to do.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10823301/SNP-student-leader-in-racism-row-for-calling-David-Cameron-an-English-t.html

It's strange, I didn't see this Wings ❓

Miss McLaren, who has campaigned alongside Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond, yesterday said that her comments were “open to misinterpretation” and apologised for any offence caused.

😆

Arguing that Mr Cameron is a “toff Tory politician, who nobody here likes or voted for”, the 19-year-old dismissed his plea by concluding: “F*** off! If he If he’s had any sense, he would have kept his gob shut.”

Aside from the 17% who did in the 2010 general election.

Yeh, but he is a ****. That bit is fine.

Well if it's alright for Clarkson to call people scottish idiots (he only ever apologised for "one eyed")...

Any invocation of Clarkson is whataboutery.

BTW you do realise that saying we have oil, haggis, renewables, etc, doesn't amount to having an economic strategy, don't you ? I did ask what would be your preferred economic strategy since you reject a central pillar of the SNP's economic strategy ?

Luckily I'm not a politician, so I don't need to come up with my own economic strategies. Voting for independence isn't voting for the SNP, so as long as other Scottish parties have their own economic strategies that's fine with me. I'd probably agree with most of what the Greens or SSP suggest.

The reality is that should Scotland become independence from the rest of the UK one of the likely consequences of that is that there will be a corporation tax war competition between the two, especially if there is a Tory government in Westminster.

That's what was said before devolution. Didn't happen. Because the tax rate is only a part of what makes a company invest* in a country - there's a bunch of other factors. In fact there was a study which showed that the tax rate of one country had minimal effect on the tax rate of neighbouring countries.

*I hate that terminology. It's really the country investing in the company, with grants and the like.

aracer - Member

Any invocation of Clarkson is whataboutery.

Or jokery

Making stuff, exporting stuff - the old-fashioned things that people used to do to make money before they tried making money from money.

I have no doubt Scotland will be OK economically, you will be worse off but you seem happy for that to be the price of self-governance. Thats's your choice, the choice the UK government has allowed you to have.

Making stuff is done abroad, in low cost production centres be that India/Bangladesh or Asia.

Depends on the stuff. There's a high-tech satellite manufacturing company lust down the road from my house. There's quite a bit of high-tech manufacturing in Scotland.

My main concern all along has been he size of an independent Scotland, it's just not going to be large enough to have a really viable domestic economy.

Is it smaller than other "viable" countries like the Scandinavian countries, New Zealand etc?

Thats's your choice, the choice the UK government has allowed you to have.

That's very magnanimous of the UK government 😀

one of the likely consequences of that is that there will be a corporation tax competition between the two

That's what was said before devolution.

What are you on about ? No one said before devolution that there would be corporation tax competition.

In fact there was a study which showed that the tax rate of one country had minimal effect on the tax rate of neighbouring countries.

Yes I've understood that you reject the SNP's argument that Scotland's future prosperity will be helped by low corporation tax which will draw investment away from the rest of the UK and to Scotland. I asked you to provide an alternative policy, not what was wrong with the SNP's policy.

You said you haven't got one, which is both fair and honest. But not very convincing.

jambalaya - Member

Making stuff is done abroad, in low cost production centres be that India/Bangladesh or Asia.

The UK is still one of the world's strongest manufacturers- maybe not so much in terms of volume (though still huge amounts of food, pharmaceuticals, a surplus of cars) but in terms of value added we hit an all time high in 2010 and were IIRC 7th biggest in the world. (though Brazil was about to overtake us) So nah, making stuff isn't just done abroad.

*I hate that terminology. It's really the country investing in the company, with grants and the like.

Northwind - Member

Well if it's alright for Clarkson to call people scottish idiots (he only ever apologised for "one eyed")...

Which political party is he representing again?

To be fair to JC (though must add that I personally think he is a weapons-grade bell end) he said:

I have nothing against the Scottish and of course I regret making any remark that might have upset the disabled. But the idiot bit - there is no chance I'll apologise for that.

Anyway, it's clear that there is no anti-English sentiment in the SNP since they have asked her to stand down. Oh no, wait- actually they haven't. Because apparently her an apology for making comments 'open to misinterpretation' makes it all fine 😀

Is it smaller than other "viable" countries like the Scandinavian countries, New Zealand etc?

The Scandies are heavily dependent upon forestry and related businesses like paper. Their star industries have either failed and/or been sold to foreigners when they've run into trouble (eg Volvo, Saab, Nokia)

I don't see Scotland being much different in the medium term as the oil runs out, leaving a heavy reliance on tourism.

I'm curious about the high tech manufacturing, what is that exactly and who are the customers ?

It is magnanimous of the UK government to allow the Scots a referendum on independence, there is no requirement to do so. Ultimately it makes no sense to have a shooting war over it, we've seen that in the past and in the present elsewhere and we don't want that.

You seem to be living in the 1950s, Sweden is one of the most, if not the most, efficient manufacturing countries in the world. Less than 5% of New Zealand's GDP is made up by agriculture.

It is magnanimous of the UK government to allow the Scots a referendum on independence, 

Really?

I am not sure which is the more telling. - Miss Maclaren's comments or the justification. No surprise in either really, the undercurrent rarely stays below the surface for too long.

Always puzzled by the idea that the UK is not a strong manufacturer. Look at where we rank globally and the contribution of manufacturing to UK exports - this is applicable to the whole of the UK. Then look at the record of inward investment.

I am not sure which is the more telling.

Telling of what? A student said something silly, a bunch of UKIP people got upset. They get upset at everything, especially any perceived anti-English bias.

In addition to the unpleasant language, immaturity of the rant and odious sentiments, the unfortunate "lady" should also learn some "gratitude". Her interest in politics should allow her to realise that the Tory Renaissance in the polls (overtaking Labour according to the Guardian) is a god send to her fraught cause. Eds call that "it's all right we will be in power in W'minster next", is looking a little less certain by he day. The yS joker card?!?! With a bit more maturity perhaps she might get it?

Edinburgh Uni and the SNP must be very proud!

Surveys showed that most Scots didn't believe Ed Milliband's promise of more powers any more than George Osborne's threat of no currency union 😉

But I agree, Labour's sinking popularity helps the Yes side.

@mefty - 🙂 very good. Many people do think I am stuck in the 1950's !

I had a look on the NZ government site and they quote manufacturing at 22% of GDP but this includes the generation of electricity plus water and gas - seems a bit spurious to me. They also include making food products as manufacturing. It seems making wine isn't classified as agriculture either.

I hate quoting Wiki but this is what they say
[i]It has only small manufacturing and high-tech sectors, being strongly focused on tourism and primary industries such as agriculture[/i]

This is what I think will happen with Scotland.

As for Sweden they certainly did make stuff (like cars, aircraft) but those businesses didn't survive as independents and where sold off. I do know they have some high tech shipping related industries, like propulsion systems, but I wouldn't have said they where a manufacturing economy. The old joke used to be that Abba where a bigger exporter than Volvo. They are also double the size of Scotland from a population perspective.

@gordimor - Countries generally don't allow regions to break off and gain independence. I appreciate the very strong sense of nationality which exists in Scotland, legal system etc but right now it's a region, a bit like one of the States in the USA.

This is what I think will happen with Scotland.

Yeah, but just think what Bay city rollers comeback tour could do for the Tartan industry!

teamhurtmore - Member

I am not sure which is the more telling. - Miss Maclaren's comments or the justification

I don't think either's very telling tbh, student politics in action. She's not an SNP representative after all- she might be a member, and she'll have been voted to the position by other (maybe) members so she can (sort of) represent the society but that's all. The SNP could condemn her I suppose but it's the words of a kid, how much time do you think the press or serious politics should spend on it?

Mainly what it tells us is that people have opinions, which I didn't realise before. And I suppose it tells you something about the press, but that bit shouldn't come as a shock either.

Well, we can beg to differ. Either way, great fun to watch the subsequent "wriggling". Its becoming quite a trend!

[and its A*A*A, or A*AA or AAA to get into Edinburgh these days - cant even hide behind "ignorance"!]

In addition to the unpleasant language, immaturity of the rant and odious sentiments

As for Sweden they certainly did make stuff (like cars, aircraft) but those businesses didn't survive as independents and where sold off. I do know they have some high tech shipping related industries, like propulsion systems, but I wouldn't have said they where a manufacturing economy. The old joke used to be that Abba where a bigger exporter than Volvo. They are also double the size of Scotland from a population perspective.

As I am sure you are aware from your own working life, who owns something doesn't necessary matter to the viability of the industry in the country, just under 28% of gdp comes from manufacturing in sweden (phones still being important as is volvo), this is pretty much the same level as germany which is a manufactuing country I imagine in your view.

[quote=Northwind ]She's not an SNP representative after all- she might be a member, and she'll have been voted to the position by other (maybe) members so she can (sort of) represent the society but that's all.

Well that and somebody "who has campaigned alongside Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond". Presumably they didn't want her there, don't take her at all seriously, she isn't representative of anybody else campaigning and somehow sneaked onto the campaign despite that?

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle 😉

On 19 Sept, will these folk be able to re-adjust to being even vaguely straight?

teamhurtmore - Member

[and its A*A*A, or A*AA or AAA to get into Edinburgh these days - cant even hide behind "ignorance"!]

LOL, you can go to uni with straight As, pass out with a first, do a postgrad and a phd and still be pig ignorant.

aracer - Member

Well that and somebody "who has campaigned alongside Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond".

And what does that actually mean here?

True NW, there's a graduate in economics from Scotland's finest university who still thinks a currency is an "asset." But I prefer deceitful in that case rather than pig ignorant because I know that his prof taught him well. But a well made point!

I

In addition to the unpleasant language, immaturity of the rant and odious sentiments,

Brilliant