[Closed] Osbornes Budget - Yes or No?

How do you know what growth (or shrinkage) would have been if they hadn't spent?

Very true, but if you're going down that route you basically can't claim anything, especially not predictions of future growth based on something that's not happened yet, so we might as well all just shut up now.

The previous government apparently spent like it was water during the good times, sold off reserves, threw money at things to effect slight improvements and positive feeling. When the harder times hit they realised that they had to maintain that level to maintain votes and the good feel and sure it might help the economy to spend during down times, but if you're digging furthe and further into debt because you have no reserves then you're just like a gambler borrowing from his childs "college fund" in the desperate hopes he wins big and can pay it all back.

Rio - governments in the UK these days are squeezed so incredibly hard by electoral politics that the idea of them saving tons of money seems utterly improbable. Imagine how people would whinge if they thought the government was sitting on a fat pile of cash instead of giving it to them personally (in some form or another).

FWIW I work in the private sector, but for the last 5 years taht's been on projects funded by the govt. So I could well be in the craphole this time next year. However I'm not blaming the govt, I made the choices I made..

Imagine how people would whinge if they thought the government was sitting on a fat pile of cash instead of giving it to them personally (in some form or another).

Governments have always (until recently!) done that. I'd think it prudent, I'd hope others would see the sense in it rather than basing national financial security on passing trends. If others think there's no need for reserves then I hope they realise now that there is.

molgrips - that's why I included paying down debt, not just saving. What they could have done is balance the budget over the economic cycle as they said they would. But running a deficit in a boom is just not sensible ( and definitely not "prudent").

but if you're digging furthe and further into debt because you have no reserves then you're just like a gambler borrowing from his childs "college fund" in the desperate hopes he wins big and can pay it all back

Mostly agreed, except that growth is more or less guaranteed, eventually (barring some catastrophe). You are betting on a horse that you know is going to come in, but it's a question of IF it will come in before your college fund runs out...

And that's the issue here really - it's a question of timing. I can see both sides here have a valid argument (ie cut now or cut later) but no-one really knows which is best because we don't know when and how well significant growth will return. So we don't know a) if we can keep borrowing, or b) if our economy can sustain cuts.

I reckon both sides are just as likely to succeed or cause massive problems.

I don't particularly have a problem with the freeze on public sector pay, especially since those earning less than £21k are protected. (And I say that as a public sector worker who earns more than £21k.)

The raising of the Income Tax threshold is great.

The VAT rise isn't ideal but it gets a lot of money in quickly and is offset for lower earners by the raising of the Income Tax threshold. It is a regressive tax though, and I'd have preferred to have seen the top rate of income tax go up instead.

What is going to be a real shock, however, is the looming cuts. That's when things are going to really go tits up, especially here in the North East.

What really bugs me are the rants against public sector workers. Guess what, I spend all of my pay. On things made by the private sector...

Undecided atm.

To join in the Public / Private sector argument, the office where Mrs J works has admin staff paid at least £20k pa, they'll not be receiving a pay freeze - even though they do chuff all because the management in her office are weak, they've even said that they can't dismiss staff because anyone who goes isn't going to be replaced, so they're stuck with them. Whereas myself in the private sector on considerably less than £21k hasn't had a pay rise for the last two years and see no signs of one am well and truly f***ed!!

Guess what, I spend all of my pay. On things made by the private sector...

Great, thanks for that - so, my taxes pay for you to buy stuff - tell you what, why don't we just cut you out the equation and let me use my money buy stuff for myself?

I remain convinced that the rants against the public sector is bourne out of two things - the moral panic created by lies from the neocons and their organs of propaganda and simple jealousy

The politics of fear and envy are not nice

It does make me laugh when the same people complain about too much money in the public sector and poor services. Services cost and contray to popular belief we have a low tax,small public sector economy still compared to most similar countries.

Yes - (lesser of two evils) but I fail to see why international aid was "ringfenced". I would have though that would have been first thing to go based on the fact that any loosers would not be within your own electorate [/cynicism].
Image, obligations, etc I guess.

A public sector that bigger than the private sector is too big IMO. Especially since all the public sector does is redistribute money from the private sector.

Where do you think government gets is money from?

The politics of fear and envy are not nice

Hahahahahaha - good one there TJ "the end of the world is nigh, Tories will eat your babies and rape your grandmother"

It does make me laugh when the same people complain about too much money in the public sector and poor services.

The two are not exclusive - what people [b]don't[/b] see from public services is value for money and quality of service, in the private sector if you don't deliver that the customer goes elsewhere and your company goes bust, in the public sector your job is safe - the private sector taxpayers see and are repeatedly exposed to inefficiencies and attitudes that would quite simply not be tolerated in their own organisations and, unsurprisingly enough, they cry foul!

edit - maybe its simply because you live and work in the public sector, buffered from the realities of actually having to make a profit to justify your job, that you cannot see why on earth those who earn a living in the real world have become so frustrated at the sheer inability of the public sector to deliver value for money!

Great, thanks for that - so, my taxes pay for you to buy stuff - tell you what, why don't we just cut you out the equation and let me use my money buy stuff for myself?

Because no-one'd be doing his job. You don't even know what that is, and you are accusing him of being useless... Nice.

Image, obligations, etc I guess.

Compassion, generosity, altruism..?

what people don't see from public services is value for money and quality of service

People have no idea what constitutes value for money in public service. They just moan about what's not being done for them, and they moan about taxation. They've absolutely no idea how or even if it's possible to get more for less from the public sector.

Zulu - you rally are laughable.

I have worked in identical jobs in both private and public sectors. Guess which gave the best value for money - the public sector. Can anyone else say that they have done identical jobs in both sectors?

Your problem is Zulu you believe all the stupid propaganda put around by your neocon pals.

The moral panic about the public sector is based on lies repeated by the right wing press that plays to the prejudices of people like you .

It is the politics of fear and envy and you have been conned - showing how stupid you are

Great, thanks for that - so, my taxes pay for you to buy stuff - tell you what, why don't we just cut you out the equation and let me use my money buy stuff for myself?

Because, as the money passes through my bank account, it enables me to do my job.

bollocks molgrips - we're all exposed to the public services on a daily basis, whether it be trying to get an appointment at the local doctors surgery through to sorting out council tax payments, and every single person from a public sector background screams with frustration at the inability to deliver customer service, let alone a simple answer.

anyone here on tax credits has seen the amount of paperwork they had through the post and thought "WTF is going on!"

bollocks molgrips - we're all exposed to the public services on a daily basis, whether it be trying to get an appointment at the local doctors surgery through to sorting out council tax payments, and every single person from a public sector background screams with frustration at the inability to deliver customer service, let alone a simple answer.

Whenever I try to deal with a private sector company, I find their customer services to be delightful.

Miketually - and if they're not, what do you do? yep, choose whether you're happy with the poor service versus price balance, and if not you take your business elsewhere! Simple 'aint it - just like buying cheap bike bits off the internet!

you cant do that with a public sector monopoly

TJ has a point but is also guilty of sweeping generalisations. My wife works in the public sector (health) having previously been private sector and despite expecting it to some extent is still suprised on a daily basis by the lack of grip on reality a lot of colleagues have and their willingness to not even consider value for money.

Yes to the op btw

buffered from the realities of actually having to make a profit to justify your job, that you cannot see why on earth those who earn a living in the real world have become so frustrated at the sheer inability of the public sector to deliver value for money

Great, thanks for that - so, my taxes pay for you to buy stuff - tell you what, why don't we just cut you out the equation and let me use my money buy stuff for myself?

Clubber - I bet she would be amazed at the waste in the private sector in healthcare. I was.

Private healthcare cost more than public . Simple fact shown over and over. NHS spending control is now actually good. ( it wasn't in the past)

people i am forced to deal with in public sector are by and large helpless arses who are incapable of thinking for themselves and considering what action would lead to the best outcome

i'll allow certain healthcare professionals off the hook, but throughout local govt etc it's a shambles. I have friends in education 'provision' who admit their jobs are a sham.

iDave - and this doesn't happen in the private sector?

bollocks molgrips - we're all exposed to the public services on a daily basis, whether it be trying to get an appointment at the local doctors surgery through to sorting out council tax payments, and every single person from a public sector background screams with frustration at the inability to deliver customer service, let alone a simple answer.

Ah yes. Of course, this never happens in the private sector, does it? Have you ever encountered brainless bureaucracy or inefficiency in the private sector? I know I have.

The thing is, no-one I have ever spoken to has any ideas on how to increase public sector efficiency apart from saying 'well just reduce the waste!'

Then the next thing you know the public are up in arms about consultants swilling about.

You can't win....

I heard an interesting item opinion on whether or not we should actually decrease the deficit yesterday. They claimed that although we were in **** loads of debt that 90% of that **** load of debt was owned by people/organisations within the UK, and the profits would primarily go toward boosting UK pension funds. Will reducing the deficit too quickly screw the pension funds up even more than they already are.

Anyone go salary figures for healthcare practitioners, teachers and any other job where a public sector role has a directly comparable private sector role?

Budget calculator says that me and my family will be approx £500/yr better off, but i'll be screwed to for getting a job in the public sector when I finish up at uni.

It would be a shame to bring a sense of balance into the discussion though wouldn't it? 🙂 I think we can all agree that there are people in private sector jobs who are lazy, workshy, oiks and that there are people in the public sector who are workshy, lazy oiks. The privare sector ones do not always get the heave-ho but many do. It seems harder to remove public sector people from their jobs when they are incompetent or not providing any value. Sweeping generalisation suggests that we employ more public sector staff than we really need and that a combination of those people and the workplace policies makes it difficult for them to actually deliver a decent / the right service. I work for a public sector company. My job takes me into a good number of other companies - both public sector and private sector. On the whole, it is the public sector offices that I have worked in that display the higher percentage of useless and incompetent staff.

Ah yes. Of course, this never happens in the private sector, does it? Have you ever encountered brainless bureaucracy or inefficiency in the private sector? I know I have.

Yes, of course I have- [b]and I have taken my custom somewhere else[/b] - no customers, no money, company either improves or goes to the wall.

Thats how the private sector works!

TJ, in the private sector it happens for a while, then people are fired if they're impacting the bottom line. in the public sector the bosses are often as bad...

I think the argument concerning private and public sector workers is that, very often, private sector workers are not 'required', they are the icing on the cake whereas public service workers are 'necessary' for society to function. I suppose you could argue that privatized public transport etc are necessary but then we see what an almighty cok and balls the private sector makes of them.

Private sector - in it for the money?

Public sector - in it for the...erm...public?

Oh, and if you cut my pay we'll all strike and society will collapse and you'll have to look after your own kids and perform your own surgery.

And another thing! I don't think here is a private enterprise on the same scale as public services so getting a doctor's appointment in a 'private' kind of way is never going to happen.

I for one am teaching 5% less effectively if my pay is frozen/ cut etc which would be a pretty scary thought as I reckon I'm only functioning on about 20-25% as it is...

TJ - sorry, no not really in comparison... Which kind of makes
my point again that you're just a blinkered as the people you
lazily brand as believing eveything they read/hear from the neocon side.

Yes, of course I have- and I have taken my custom somewhere else

So? I was pointing out that using the lazy useless argument against the public sector is not necessarily useful, since it's a problem for all organisations private or public.

It is probably true that the public sector is somewhat less efficient, but that's just how it is I think.

A better way to reduce public spending would be to try and simplify procedures, systems and remove unnecessary services. That's not the same as just screwing them all because you think they're lazy.

company either improves or goes to the wall.

Ever shopped for electronics at Dixons? Bought bikes at Halfords?

i thought about 60% of public sector (local govt) jobs were to provide jobs for the unemployable? they wouldn't be missed. clearly we need teachers and nurses, but less convinced on diversity awareness directors.... etc

so, yeah TJ, you're safe, but the hard working essential person who decides you should have transgender awareness training may not be.....

in the private sector if you don't deliver that the customer goes elsewhere and your company goes bust

😆

Plenty of companies provide a shocking service but still make money because they are exploiting some situation (often fairly unethically) to their advantage. You should hear some of the outrageous tales about the companies that now maintain our railways from a friend who works on them. eg Getting paid £12 an hour to set up safety equipment 'for people to do repairs' on a train line that doesn't exist any more. And there are several layers of subcontractors all taking their slice.

The budget gets a no from me. There are good elements but the VAT rise and the freeze on child benefits for everyone rather than just the rich are a backwards step - they will hit poor families harder. The new welfare rules smack of Daily Mail vindictiveness.

Also, the tories are using the current financial situation with glee as an excuse to impose their dogma of privatisation and cutting. They are talking down the economy to justify it. Public sector workers and people on benefits are paying the price for a crisis created by the banks while the banks go back to business and bonuses as usual.

Also, people suggesting Gordon Brown created the world financial crisis need to get a grip on reality.

Molgrips - Yes but in both cases, cost or convenience has been the driver so service has been irrelevant.

TJ just remembered something else - when my wife was interviewed for her role they were actively recruiting from the private sector because in their words, the public sector is "institutionally inefficient".

Though to clarify, that's aimed at the many useless paperpushers, managers, empire builders and pointless job justifiers and so on, not the front line staff who are typically pretty decent and have their patients' interests at heart.

It is probably true that the public sector is somewhat less efficient, but that's just how it is I think.

🙄

Ever shopped for electronics at Dixons? Bought bikes at Halfords?

Molgrips, do you not get the concept - I'm able to [b]choose[/b]

Obi_Twa - Member

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Anyone go salary figures for healthcare practitioners, teachers and any other job where a public sector role has a directly comparable private sector role?

Me - identical roles in private and public sector. Public £12.70 an hour plus extra for unsocial hours etc. Private £11 per hour and no extras

Actually I think healthcare is skewed on this as due to the salary disparity the best folk go into the public sector.

I see massive inefficiencies all the time in the private sector. I see a manger wasting 20% of their time collating financial figures that no one will ever look at - and all they are doing is looking them up on the computer and copying them onto a bit of paper. Senior manger and 20% of their time is spent doing this - at the insistence of the regional manager who then doesn't read the figures.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Of course the taxpayer does subsidise private sector massively. all those people on minimum wage that then require benefits to keep them out of destitution.

If the private sector paid a living wage then this taxpayer money would no t need to be spent. Of course the CBI campaigned against the minimum wage and campaigns against any rise in it - despite the fact that it cost no jobs at all - 2 million jonbs at risk from the minimum wage according to the CBI before it was brought in.

Now this subsidy I resent greatly - the taxpayer subsiding private sector so as to boost the profits which go to the bosses.

another one - look at the amount of money taken out of private sector companies by the bosses?

Also, people suggesting Gordon Brown created the world financial crisis need to get a grip on reality.

Whilst there are many who think he is implicit in the activities that led to the banking crisis I haven't seen anyone on this thread explicitly blame him for the global economic downturn. But he's the one who didn't make allowance for the economic cycle in his spending plans - a beginner's mistake which left us in the current position when the inevitable happened.

Molgrips, do you not get the concept - I'm able to choose

I do you get your point that in theory you can choose a different provider if you are unhappy. But that is not relevant to the points I am trying to make.

Firstly, inefficiency is widespread throughout business NOT just the public sector.

Secondly, although in theory I can shop elsewhere, if I want to buy car parts or whatever at 6pm, I do not have any choice. Dixons, Halfords, Currys etc are all equally crap - free market imperatives have not resulted in good service. Halfords can be as rubbish as it likes and we will still shop there.

I think the work shy thing is probably highly insulting and often misguided.

Many of us can't comprehend exactly what other people do as part of their job and assume in our ignorance that this must mean that it is easier than it is. I'm not saying that there are not inefficient people employed in either sector, just that judging without intimate knowledge is foolhardy.

I think what people are really alluding to that there might be people in the public sector doing jobs that don't really need doing. I guess in times of plenty we can afford to employ enough folks to cross all the Ts, but in times of hardship we have to cut back a little which seem fair enough. The private sector is always about the bottom line and fat profits for the shareholder/ company owners so live in perpetual times of hardship at the coal face. The question I would be asking is why should this be so, just so the few can get unnecasarily even richer.

There will of course be a different mindset for those in steady public sector jobs to those in high risk private sector ones. The steady public sector employment comes with less impressive renumeration offset by the knowledge that is is slightly more secure. Those setting up their own private sector companies or working in a bonus driven culture are a little like the gold rush speculators a couple of centuries ago, working hard for a pitance for the chance of striking big. Big for some means bust for others so it's swings and roundabouts.

The question I would be asking is why should this be so, just so the few can get unnecasarily even richer.

Capitalism requires those dependent on being given a job to work for as little as is absolutely possible.

I can still [b]choose[/b] not to molgrips.

My bin collection is ****ing shocking, different bin every week - why cant I and my neighbours [b]choose[/b] to get our bins collected by someone who offers a better level of service?