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Ninfan's post is based on scant information available through mainstream media outlets, rather than evidence presented by all who were actually there, including people who were serving police officers. Historical revisionism is very easy, when the only narrative available is that from the 'official' sources.
Actually I tend to ignore mainstream media and go to source documents that have been released under the 30 year rule. The thing about the 'unofficial narrative' is that it tends to be bound up in rumour and propaganda - like how everyone knows that it was the army fighting rioters, not the police, and how there was this major secret government conspiracy that doesn't appear to be recorded anywhere, when all the documented reasons for things where pretty logical and boring.
"holding the country to ransom."
Is a phrase thats been applied to strike action for over a hundred years
the miners were desperately trying to stand up or the future of their communities and families, and the futures of all workers in the UK.
Whereas their leaders openly discussed toppling the elected government of the day. The miners were nothing but pawns in the marxists ongoing battle for a socialist revolution they couldn't achieve through democratic means
"Actually I tend to ignore mainstream media and go to source documents that have been released under the 30 year rule."
😆
What, documents released by the government?
😆
"Is a phrase thats been applied to strike action for over a hundred years"
By right-wingers and those with a vested interest in workers not having rights, decent pay and conditions, and against those who want to secure a decent future for their families and communities. And the mainstream right-wing press, basically. And any idiot who believes such bollocks.
"Whereas their leaders openly discussed toppling the elected government of the day. The miners were nothing but pawns in the marxists ongoing battle for a socialist revolution they couldn't achieve through democratic means"
What utter rot you talk. Do you seriously beleive we actually have any genuine deomocracy in this country?
😆
Now, run along and do some work for your Eton bred masters.
By right-wingers and those with a vested interest in workers not having rights, decent pay and conditions, and against those who want to secure a decent future for their families and communities. And the mainstream right-wing press, basically. And any idiot who believes such bollocks.
...and the people whose bins weren't being emptied, and the people who couldn't bury their dead relatives, and the people whose electricity was off, and the people who couldn't get to work, and the people whose operations were cancelled...
...and all the people who decided they had had enough of this shit and so voted in Thatcher, Major, Blair (Tory) & Cameron instead of Callaghan, Foot, Kinnock, Brown, Miliband & Corbyn
Blimey, the toffs must be really cracking their whips today...
"...and the people whose bins weren't being emptied, and the people who couldn't bury their dead relatives, and the people whose electricity was off, and the people who couldn't get to work, and the people whose operations were cancelled..."
Etc etc etc. All the fault of the unions, of course Because employers being ****s has nothing to do with any of it.
You must really yearn for a return to the days before unions existed, and employers were kind, benevolent and altruistic, and always ensured their workers had the very best conditions in which to work, equal employment rights, a minimum wage, and always listened to any worker who had an issue...
All the facts are out there, apart from Govt docs that won't be released for decades. If there's evidence good enough to get a conviction do that, if there's not an inquiry won't find anything new.
Incorrect.
My understanding is that an inquiry would have access to the unreleased government documents...
So, the best "no inquiry" defense is to release the files that currently have an 80 year release date
It's interesting, that certain documents will have different timescales of their 'release' into the public realm. I suppose those in control need to ensure nothing can come out, in their lifetimes, which could potentially incriminate them/force them to actually be accountable for their actions.
Time such practice was stopped. It's in the national interest that such events be open to scrutiny of the whole of society, there is no issue of 'national security' or any other such nonsense.
You must really yearn for a return to the days before unions existed,
I doubt it. Ninfan (excuse me talking for you ninfan) would probably be able to see that the role of unions continues to shrink and is less than when he can probably remember. On 13 in every 100 workers these days - negligible really. Used to be lots more.
Oh hello THM!
" They CONTINUE to represent a SMALER number of people in work"
😆
I'm still chuckling over that one. Well done (I know you didn't mean it, but you've amused me no end, so thanks).
Just a quick question THM; are you able to discuss any matter without needing to use numbers? I mean, are you able to analyse anything outside of a numerical framework?
Genuinely interested. It's just that every single argument you have on here, you have to use numbers to back yourself up.
Odd that - use facts, numbers and reliable data to support a point - radical I know
Football or non-football!!
But you use nothing other than numbers, which as we've already established (well, I had to tell you about it), are only as good as the methodology used to create them.
You don't seem to have any knowledge outside of a numerical framework, which you can draw upon to further reinforce/substantiate any argument you make. Issues such as the battle of Orgreave, and associated police and government conduct and accountability cannot be reduced to numbers. You've done nothing on this thread other than to try to convince yourself that unions aren't increasing in terms of membership. I'm no longer interested in your attempts to seek attention by showing that you might have a GCSE in maths, I'm far more interested in your opinion on the issues raised by this thread.
If you're not capable of such input, fine, leave it there. But I'm really quite bored by your constant need for attention, and I dare say everyone else is too.
Good night.
Actually Clodhopper I am much more bored by your patonising , overbearing and arrogant arguing style than anything else .
Isn't the freedom of choice to read something or not, a wonderful thing then? 😀
Isn't the choice to read something or not, a wonderful thing then?
Take a lesson out of you own book then - give us all a break
My comments on Orgreave were close to the start - that was something you obviously chose not to read. Odd that, there were no numbers in it!
I really have no sympathy with the miners here, if I put myself as a miner back then I would have gone to work as I don't believe in striking - I would have had my house vandalised, been physically attacked and been shunned from the society I lived in just because I had a different view.
The police weren't angels, I know, but I'm glad we don't see any of this union action any more, it has no place in modern society.
I grew up in the mining area and my dad worked as an engineer for the NCB. He quit rather than strike. That's someone who had principles and I hope I would have had the guts to do the same myself.
"I really have no sympathy with the miners here, if I put myself as a miner back then I would have gone to work as I don't believe in striking"
So you'd put your own interests before that of the greater community?
Would you then be surprised if other members of that community felt anger towards you?
"I'm glad we don't see any of this union action any more, it has no place in modern society."
Really? Why do you think that, then? Do you not think that workers should have some form of support that is independent of their employers? What's your view on the Deliveroo case?
So you'd put your own interests before that of the greater community?
No. I have my principles that I stick to. I am happy to have discussions about working conditions and pay etc but I will not withdraw my labour. I don't have any hatred towards people who strike, that's their choice, it's up to them. However too often people on the other side don't have any respect for other people's opinions and principles and in the miners situation chose to physically attack the people who didn't agree with them, intimidate their families and wreck their houses. That is disgusting behaviour.
Ok.
What about your dislike of unions, and the Deliveroo case?
What about your dislike of unions, and the Deliveroo case?
You think that challenging something in court, or lobbying for workers rights through parliament, is the same as using threats, intimidation and violence to get what you want? You can't see the difference?
Tell you what Ninfan; I'll answer your question when you've answered the ones I asked you yesterday. Thanks.
Besides; the question for was for newrobdob, not you.
@clodhopper.
People often come on here purely to express a view or opinion, not engage in a never ending argument. And frankly I don't doubt your views are sincerely held, but they are pretty far from what most people consider mainstream. It makes it difficult to engage with you in manner that doesn't end in conflict.
Sorry Clodhopper, I thought they were just the rhetorical rantings of an embittered old died in the wool socialist, still unable to come to terms with why Miliband the union stooge lost the last election.
But since the only question you seemed to actually ask me was:
Do you seriously beleive we actually have any genuine deomocracy in this country?
Then yeah, I do as it happens - see the above example of Miliband the union stooge losing the last election 😆
"I don't doubt your views are sincerely held, but they are pretty far from what most people consider mainstream."
Excellent. I'd hate to be considered 'one of the herd'...
"Sorry Clodhopper, I thought they were just the rhetorical rantings of an embittered old died in the wool socialist, still unable to come to terms with why Miliband the union stooge lost the last election."
Which shows your ignorance and inability to engage effectively with the debate. Which is a shame; you could learn something if you actually did engage with it properly.