[Closed] Orgreave Truth and Justice campaign Need Your Help This Is For The Miners

Much as I am interested in this and naturally sceptical of the police what would be the point of a public inquiry. Most of this was sorted out at the trials of the miners . The news reports by the BBC were shown to have been edited to put the miners as the aggressors because "it made better television. Police witnesses were shown to be giving evidence about events which occurred when they were not on duty. Many books and documentarys have already gone over all of this ground in detail. The officers involved in the 80's will now be towards the end of their careers the senior officers will be retired .

Tell me a good reason to spend a ton of money on this and I will sign.

Tell me a good reason to spend a ton of money on this and I will sign.

Because the pursuit of justice should not cease because its dirty coppers being chased.

My father was there. In uniform.

You rarely hear about the nasty stuff that went on from the side of the miners and the activists. Funny that.

There aren't endless pots of cash to fight every age old legal case - that may sound harsh but we have vital services here and now that are desperate for funding to be effective to protect truly vulnerable groups of people.

Find it hard to get excited about it - in-laws were there as coppers, neither side would come out of a [u]full[/u] enquiry looking very clever.

All a massive waste of public money going to the blood sucking lawyers, we have more current issues frankly at the moment.

@adjustable True but making sure the police cannot break the law and abuse their position is an important civil liberty that needs up holding. When they fail in this duty, and deliberately so we need to act.

You rarely hear about the nasty stuff that went on from the side of the miners and the activists. Funny that.

One lot were paid to uphold the laws of the land, to tell the truth, honestly protect our civil liberties , protect us from harm and deliver justice and they somewhat failed in that duty and were criminal in their actions.

Are you willing to comment on what you think of the polices behaviour at all?

A number of these were put on trial in 1987, but the trials collapsed, all charges were dropped and a number of lawsuits were brought against the police for assault, unlawful arrest and malicious prosecution. South Yorkshire Police later agreed to pay £425,000 compensation and £100,000 in legal costs to 39 pickets in an out of court settlement. Nevertheless, no officers were disciplined for misconduct.

Sounds like a money grab to me ...
As MCTD mentions neither side some out smelling of roses

Scargill was as self interested as Thatcher - she turned the police into her private army. He turned the miners into his.

BTW his pension is fine - but unfortunately even the NUM thought he was taking the piss re the flat ...

Orgreave was just the prelude for lies and deceit which South Yorkshire Police used in the Hillsborough Police Coverup 5 years later. They got away with it once so they thought they were untouchable. Which of course they were.

As MCTD mentions neither side some out smelling of roses

[i]There aren't endless pots of cash to fight every age old legal case - that may sound harsh but we have vital services here and now that are desperate for funding to be effective to protect truly vulnerable groups of people. [/i]

Yer, right...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/12/plebgate-police-inquiry-cost

[i]Everyone[/i] has a duty to uphold the law.

Can't defend coppers who broke the law, it was wrong.

My opinion, and that is all it is, is that it would also be wrong to siphon millions of pounds of public money to the lawyers at an inquiry to rake over something that is now 30 years old. I work around ex mining communities here in Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Staffordshire, and this post is the first I've heard of this latest campaign.

Maybe if people in this country stopped looking backwards all the time looking to find someone else to blame for things then we might have the gumption and balls to take on and tackle the problems that are facing us today and in the months and years ahead.

Signed. I saw some of the action at fairly close range in 1984, by accident and was horrified by the behaviour of the police. There was a lot of serious right wing agitation going on in those days.

give it a rest.. we ve had apologies for the slave trade, inquest in to hillsborough half a dozen times we ve replayed bloody sunday so many times no one can remember now who did what.. outcome.. not one person jailed or convicted of wrong doing.

whats done is done live for today

Everyone has a duty to uphold the law.

Can't defend coppers who broke the law, it was wrong.

My opinion, and that is all it is, is that it would also be wrong to siphon millions of pounds of public money to the lawyers at an inquiry to rake over something that is now 30 years old. I work around ex mining communities here in Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Staffordshire, and this post is the first I've heard of this latest campaign.

Maybe if people in this country stopped looking backwards all the time looking to find someone else to blame for this

Mr Blair seemed quite happy to "kettle" protesters ... how was that different? And lets discuss the legality of the Iraq war ...

give it a rest.. we ve had apologies for the slave trade, inquest in to hillsborough half a dozen times we ve replayed bloody sunday so many times no one can remember now who did what.. outcome.. not one person jailed or convicted of wrong doing.

whats done is done live for today

Yep - we were horrid in India, we beat up the Dutch, and we made the Americans revolt. That is history ...

The miners strike is 30 years ago - what is the point?

totalshell - Member

give it a rest.. we ve had apologies for the slave trade, inquest in to hillsborough

You got a problem with the Hillsborough Inquest ? The world knows the truth about Hillsborough because of the inquest, is that a bad thing ?

Edit : I mean inquiry.

You got a problem with the Hillsborough Inquest ? The world knows the truth about Hillsborough because of the inquest, is that a bad thing ?

Sorry, I didn't realise that you were at Hillsborough ...
It is great that the truth will eventually come out

Maybe if people in this country stopped looking backwards all the time looking to find someone else to blame for things then we might have the gumption and balls to take on and tackle the problems that are facing us today and in the months and years ahead.

whats done is done live for today

Perhaps you are just blinkered? That nonsense.

Coming out with a statement like that just tells me that you have your own blinkered views. If you cast views different to your own aside without regard, you are as bad as anyone else.
At least I heard about the policing of the events you have such strong views about from someone who was there for many weeks. He saw many faults in the policing, but certain forces had cultural issues that pervaded. He also said that they generally got along very well with the miners on the lines - the activists (miners and in particular, non-miners) were the main problem and most miners disliked that as much as anyone else.

It's not brushing things under the carpet - comments on here indicate that I, and those with similar views are well aware of what happened. I know people who were on both sides of the lines in the miners dispute, and TooTall makes a good point. Any sweeping has clearly not been very effective. And I would suggest that any "unlawful" activity by the Police etc nowadays is far less likely to be left unchallenged for 30 years - we have learnt valuable lessons from the mistakes of the past.

Our point is that - as a country and a society - we cannot afford the time or money to keep clawing over all the things that have happened over the years. We need to stop looking for someone to blame (and/or claim compensation from) and concentrate on how we sort out the problems we have now.

I have miners on both sides of my family, and uncles in the north east shipbuilders. I was brought up near Corby and still have friends there. I remember when a trip to visit relatives up north involved going past miles of pits, slag heaps, factories and furnaces along the A1/M1. Living and working where I do now I understand how dreadful it has been for communities who have had their main source of employment and pride closed down over the last 20,30,even 40 years ago. Mistakes - genuine and criminal - were made on all sides over that time.

But some communities have got up, brushed themselves down and got on with it. They haven't kept looking backwards to blame someone or tried to make themselves out to be victims. They've MTFU'd more than many of us can appreciate and gone through all kinds of problems to move on and start afresh.

And mark my words, the only ones who will see any real benefit from an enquiry are the lawyers. Shakespeare had the solution to that particular societal ill...

Maybe if people in this country stopped looking backwards all the time looking to find someone else to blame for things then we might have the gumption and balls to take on and tackle the problems that are facing us today and in the months and years ahead.

The idea is to learn the right lessons from the past. As Ernie said South yorkshire Police learnt the wrong lesson, it was called "impunity".

It's not brushing things under the carpet - comments on here indicate that I, and those with similar views are well aware of what happened. I know people who were on both sides of the lines in the miners dispute, and TooTall makes a good point. Any sweeping has clearly not been very effective. And I would suggest that any "unlawful" activity by the Police etc nowadays is far less likely to be left unchallenged for 30 years - we have learnt valuable lessons from the mistakes of the past.

Our point is that - as a country and a society - we cannot afford the time or money to keep clawing over all the things that have happened over the years. We need to stop looking for someone to blame (and/or claim compensation from) and concentrate on how we sort out the problems we have now.

I have miners on both sides of my family, and uncles in the north east shipbuilders. I was brought up near Corby and still have friends there. I remember when a trip to visit relatives up north involved going past miles of pits, slag heaps, factories and furnaces along the A1/M1. Living and working where I do now I understand how dreadful it has been for communities who have had their main source of employment and pride closed down over the last 20,30,even 40 years ago. Mistakes - genuine and criminal - were made on all sides over that time.

But some communities have got up, brushed themselves down and got on with it. They haven't kept looking backwards to blame someone or tried to make themselves out to be victims. They've MTFU'd more than many of us can appreciate and gone through all kinds of problems to move on and start afresh.

And mark my words, the only ones who will see any real benefit from an enquiry are the lawyers. Shakespeare had the solution to that particular societal ill...

So those who may have had something done to them that potentially could be unlawful should MTFU and move on? And this sort of thing should not be pursued through the courts because of cost issues?

Right. 🙄

Coming out with a statement like that just tells me that you have your own blinkered views. If you cast views different to your own aside without regard, you are as bad as anyone else.

Saying a false premise is false is not blinkered.
Have you a counter to me questioning your premise that is based in fact rather than emotion?

At least I heard about the policing of the events you have such strong views about from someone who was there for many weeks.

Anything factual?

And I would suggest that any "unlawful" activity by the Police etc nowadays is far less likely to be left unchallenged for 30 years - we have learnt valuable lessons from the mistakes of the past.

What country did you grow up in
Ps I think the goal is to have them not happen not to leave it unchallenged for 30 years - by which time we should all have MTFU and got on with it except greedy lawyers.

Its quite hard to have a rational conversation clearly.
Enjoy your night and yer beers.

whats done is done live for today

reading this thread as a person who was greatly affected by the miners strike and it's outfall.

good and bad arguments on both sides, sadly though somethings go too deep to be forgotten I suppose.

I had quite a few days at Orgreave that summer. I saw some behaviour that quite a few folk on here would prefer to believe couldn't happen.
I don't talk about it often, but as ton says, it cut a bit too deep to be forgotten.

I worked on the CH4 docu-drama about Orgreave (played a miner) and i was struck by the still intense bitterness towards the police that the ex miners feel. South Yorkshire Police still have a very long way to go to persuade those communities that they are all on the same side nowadays, it will take decades to repair the damage i suspect.

This

There aren't endless pots of cash to fight every age old legal case - that may sound harsh but we have vital services here and now that are desperate for funding to be effective to protect truly vulnerable groups of people.

and that

give it a rest.. we ve had apologies for the slave trade, inquest in to hillsborough half a dozen times we ve replayed bloody sunday so many times no one can remember now who did what.. outcome.. not one person jailed or convicted of wrong doing.

whats done is done live for today

IMO. We have a shit load of problems on our plate today including ensuring that the police uphold the law without having to dig back through the history books looking for old battles to fight.

Thatcher!

Just thought I'd get that in first.

War is hell.

including ensuring that the police uphold the law

Can I have an explanation of why this may occur please?
You may wish to reference the Hillsborough cover [ which happened after this event]up by the same police force in your explanation.

Folk keep saying this but no one has explained why it would make things better to just ignore past abuse.

Should we do the same with the current "celebrity" sex abuse cases? Many of those were even longer ago in the past.

Nothing like judging the past by the standard of today, perhaps we should cut off the power of the people supporting this, that might focus minds a little better.

If the people who have been whining about the miners strike for 30 years had put one tenth of that effort into rebuilding local communities they would have much less to carp about today.

If the people who have been whining about the miners strike for 30 years had put one tenth of that effort into rebuilding local communities they would have much less to carp about today.

You mean the Tories ?

[i]I worked on the CH4 docu-drama about Orgreave (played a miner) and i was struck by the still intense bitterness towards the police that the ex miners feel. South Yorkshire Police still have a very long way to go to persuade those communities that they are all on the same side nowadays, it will take decades to repair the damage i suspect. [/i]

+1 ex-Yorkshire.

We moved up to the Scottish Borders last year and I was chatting with the local Sergeant (our sons go to the same club) and he said that here he's just another guy working in his home town, and is treated like any other neighbour. But what has struck him as he's worked in other areas (shipped around to 'hotspots') is how few of the police he works with actually live in/on their 'beat'. He especially noticed it when on riot duty with the Met.

But then, the police have been moved up the salary scales and I guess don't need to live in their old working-class areas anymore?

Interesting that the "left", having moaned for the past 35 years that we've stopped extracting non-renewable energy from the ground with the loss of jobs, earnings and communities and so on, are now moaning because the government wants to start again, with the consequent benefits for jobs, earnings and communities...

Source Whoppit please.
Anad another example of "attack" as a form of defence?

If the people who have been whining about the miners strike for 30 years had put one tenth of that effort into rebuilding local communities they would have much less to carp about today.

Interesting that the "left", having moaned for the past 35 years that we've stopped extracting non-renewable energy from the ground with the loss of jobs, earnings and communities and so on, are now moaning because the government wants to start again, with the consequent benefits for jobs, earnings and communities...

What on earth has that got to do with police behaviour at Orgreave, and the lies, deceit, and coverup, which followed ? !

Another example of police/public interaction from the 1980's.

Radio host Robert Elms, when attending the Notting Hill Carnival for the first time with some friends, found himself outside a police line.

When he asked if they could be let through to go to Carnival, the policeman said (and I quote):

"Why do you want to go down there and join the ****s?"

Have we moved on, d'you think?

What on earth has that got to do with police behaviour at Orgreave, and the lies, deceit, and coverup, which followed ? !

Nowt.

Its spin to distract us from discussing the police behaviour which some seem incapable of doing on this thread

Its a poor tactic of attacking some other issue rather than discussing the police behaviour on that day - its because they know they cannot defend it hence they dont try [ nor let that fact alter their view]

Please not another request for a public inquiry. I am sure the lawyers and the media would love it, but at the end what would be the result. Who actually would benefit from dragging up the memories of 30 years ago and discussing it in public? And because it is 30 years ago and because the hatred is still there would we end up with a public inquiry or a public witch hunt of the police and miners. Neither side was angels. You could argue that the police are worst because they should be upholding the law, but equally we are all responsible for upholding the law so you cannot reduce the actions carried out by the miners.

At the end of the day - the police force of 30 years ago and the police force now are radically different. The mining communities need to move on and look forward, not backwards. An inquiry would stop the moving forward for another decade or two.

"Why do you want to go down there and join the ****s?"

I was interested to read about that so I Googled the quote.

Google search returns "1 Result"

This thread.

Who actually would benefit from dragging up the memories of 30 years ago and discussing it in public?

Neither side was angels.

You could argue that the police are worst because they should be upholding the law,

we are all responsible for upholding the law so you cannot reduce the actions carried out by the miners.

The mining communities need to move on and look forward, not backwards. An inquiry would stop the moving forward for another decade or two.

sadmadalan - Member

Neither side was angels. You could argue that the police are worst because they should be upholding the law, but equally we are all responsible for upholding the law so you cannot reduce the actions carried out by the miners.

As Junkyard suggests, if this actually was the case, then you really need to explain how despite nearly 100 arrests not one single miner was convicted.

Can you do that ?

I note that none of the defenders have suggested that the police did not commit any offences simply that the others did as well [ even though no one was convicted]

The justice system in many countries has "prescription" rules. For each crime there is a time beyond which criminal proceedings can no longer be brought. IMO this is a good thing.

This is a matter for the historians.

MODS.
Please. Can we just stop politically biased threads from a cycling forum.
Controversial topics such as helmets are bad enough but I feel that things like this add nothing to the forum and lead to ill will and bad tempers.

I dont like top gear,F1,rugby or many other issues.
What I do is not read those threads rather than demand they be closed because I have no interest in the subject matter.

HTH

I take it this thread has made you bad tempered mattsccm ?

Obviously dont let that fact make you reconsider your position

Both sides turned up for a riot, they got what they came for.

So how come no convictions phead ? Lack of evidence ? What do you reckon ?

Both sides turned up for a riot, they got what they came for.

Really? Are you sure?

Junkyard - lazarus
I dont like top gear,F1,rugby or many other issues.
What I do is not read those threads rather than demand they be closed because I have no interest in the subject matter.

HTH

This. I don't agree with all the opinions on this thread (it would be weird if I did!), but it was pretty obvious even before opening it what the content was going to be.

Be a short thread with everyone just going OP + n if we all agreed

Both sides turned up for a riot, they got what they came for.

That would be illegal and we may wish to question why those tasked with protecting law and order turned up to break the law.
Again its not a defence or a denial

Was this line of "defence" not used in Hillsborough - they fans were rioting?

as ernie notes the absence of convictions and the compensation paid out would suggest your analysis that both sides turned up for a riot was not upheld by the courts and the police apologised with money yet no one has been held to account for the lawless that day.

Whomever you may wish to blame for this this is not a satisfactory outcome for justice.

nealglover - Member
"Why do you want to go down there and join the ****s?"
I was interested to read about that so I Googled the quote.

Google search returns "1 Result"

This thread.

It's a quote from Elms that I saw whilst he was being interviewed as part of a TV documentary some years ago.

It seems beyond doubt that policing of public events and demonstrations in the 1980's had become much like the CRS "crowd control" methods in Paris in 1968.

What they lacked was the "Roman Legions" military approach adopted by the French police plus the shields, batons and body armour they employed during the student riots. The attitude seemed well buffed to a high sheen, though.

Fortunately, the american experience culminating in the Kent State University murders did not translate to the U.K. at the time...

Scagilll was never in it for the good of the miners, he just wanted to bypass the rule of law and democracy and overthrow the government for his own selfish means and aims and he manipulated and used the miners as his vehicle to do this, whipped up a storm, called an illegal strike and Gift wrapped to Thatcher exactly what she wanted - a chance to take on and break the most powerful union at that time, and the rest is history. There are two sides to every story and from what I've seen from the footage both sides were giving as good as they got, and anyone who thinks either side was squeaky clean are either naive, prejudiced or just kidding themselves. No good will come out of this, we all know the police have been institutionally compromised in the past and they are in the process of being brought to account, but we have a new generation of police now who were kids or not even born when the miners strike was on and the people responsible have all long since moved on, lets press on with the real issues facing us.

The question that came up earlier regarding the lack of convictions of miners was interesting, I thought.

How do you account for that if

anyone who thinks either side was squeaky clean are either naive, prejudiced or just kidding themselves

?

Yep, the invidual police officers were as much victims and instigators of the crimes as the miners. Those in power, Thatcher and Scargill, used and abused their foot troops to their own ends. War is not clean and orderly. As said it was 30 years ago, people from both sides should have been prosecuted but weren't. The mining communities so need to move on and let their victim hood go. They probably won't be happy with the outcome of any enquiry anyway as it won't demonise the police and acquit the miners.

See R v Hancock - idiots on both sides - did the police actually kill anyone?

SO as long as they dont kill anyone we should turn a blind eye to their behaviour?

from what I've seen from the footage both sides were giving as good as they got,

So you have no problem with the police rioting then and breaking the law?

and anyone who thinks either side was squeaky clean are either naive, prejudiced or just kidding themselves.

FWIW in an example of public disobedience or rioting or direct action or whatever we wish to call it I expect one side to break the law and one side to uphold the law. I cannot get that upset that protesters/rioters/strikers/criminals are acting criminally [ though I dont approve generally] but I can get upset that the upholders of the law are acting like criminals. unlike some who seem to just want to ignore it as apparently this will make it all better.

I really dont understand why folk accept the police acted like criminals but dont want to hold them to account for it.

lets press on with the real issues facing us.

*

Lack of convictions of miners? Just how in a crowd of thousands of angry miners are the police going to pick out individuals, accumulate the evidence and whitnesses needed to secure a conviction? It's not surprising there were not many convictions. Their main aim was to keep law and order and enable miners who wanted to work to get to their work safely, not to pick out individuals and arrest them. I'm acknowledging the police were heavy handed, they always are in these situation, but some, probably a minority, of the miners were hardly peaceful and orderly, they were throwing Molotov cocktails, weilding bats and other weapons, caused alot of injuries to the Police too. Doesn't justify some of the Polices' actions.

People on both sides are human and get scared, angry and lose sight of their sensibilities. We see it in wars too, and individuals doing things that they wouldn't ordinarily do or ordinarily condone. If the police were under orders to bash protestors then fair enough, but that wasn't the case. For individual police officers that overstepped the mark, fair enough, they need to be rooted out and dealt with to the full extend of the Police disciplinary process and law. Was the guy wielding the truncheon above dealt with? He may very well have been. Did he even land the blow or was he just threatening? Was that photo from the miners strike at all? Photos have context too.

[b]Justice was not served well at Orgreave - that we know.[/b] But does a unilateral inquiry into the activities of one party serve us better? The "tragedy" of the whole episode is that you had two parties whose leadership was intent on confrontation (a pre-determined "battle" of wills and bodies in the end) and were BOTH prepared to ignore and ride-over the rule of law. Both sets of leaders should be ashamed of themselves as a result.

So that leads into the interesting debate about the morality of those "footsoldiers" involved. Is following the orders of others a legitimate defence? Does the obvious outrage that a miner/policeman would feel if one of his colleagues was hit my a baton/struck by a missile defend or excuse the wish for revenge?[b] Isn't the rule of law exactly designed to protect us all from the natural desire for revenge in these cases?[/b] Which leads onto JY's points - does the fact that the police are charged with maintaining the rule of law make their (alleged?) transgressions and failure to do so any more reprehensible? [b]Aren't we all equally responsible for respecting the law?[/b]

The lack of convictions (on either side) is an interesting one when it is/was blatantly obvious that laws were broken on that day by many parties. Frankly that was an absurd outcome with two distasteful conclusions - (1) why were no correct convictions made successfully? (2) why did the police allegedly feel the need to distort the facts/lie in the cases that they bought and lost? The Rotherham Union account describes how the first injury on the day was a policeman who was hit in the face by a missile. There does not need to be any elaboration or exaggeration of facts. Or is that what happens with an alleged policy of random arrests?

FWIW, I find the second outcome the more disturbing. There seems to have been a culture at the time of cases where evidence was tampered with/made up etc. Was this simply laziness or was it deliberate attempts to pervert the course of justice. I expect that this meant that in some cases innocent people were wrongly accused and in others that guilty people were not convicted (not just at Orgreave BTW). Neither is a satisfactory outcome IMO.

So what in the end will be served here? If those that should be ashamed are not already, will they change? I doubt it. Will those who were the most guilty be prosecuted? I doubt it. Will we know more about inappropriate powers/abuse of the powers by the police? Possibly. Do we already know this and have steps been take to ensure that a repeat doesn't happen? Yes. Will these things ever happen again? .......you decide!!!

Was the guy wielding the truncheon above dealt with?.....no
Did he even land the blow or was he just threatening? ........can't recall but many landed.
Was that photo from the miners strike at all? .......yes
Photos have context too......yes which is why the police brought prosecutions based on news footage which reversed the order of events to make the miners look like the aggressors when in fact the cavalry charges were conducted into peaceful crowds and the miners "violence " came after not before. The prosecutions went wrong when the police were forced to disclose their own videos which showed the true order of events.

The police tactics were modelled on the Roman legionary tactics down to shield walls and beating shields with batons to induce fear. They added agent provocateurs to penetrate the miners and push victims forward to the wall. The miners countered with a range of coal not dole badges with different colours handed out on different days to id police plants .

Plenty of pictures showing coppers gettings a kicking as well?

Two wrongs dont make a right and the upholders of the law need to uphold the law not act like criminals.
Again not a defence is it

So back to the campaign for a public inquiry. The miners were not convicted. The police were shown to be in the wrong and admitted as much by paying compensation . The history of the events is reasonably well udocumented. A public inquiry cannot convict any individual officer of any crime . So what is the point ?

Justice
Not covering things up
Holding the police t account
Learning lessons so we dont repeat the mistakes

Was the guy wielding the truncheon above dealt with? NO
Did he even land the blow or was he just threatening? He is on a horse with a woman with her back to him tending to an injured man – why does he need to threaten her? What law is she breaking, what threat is she to him? is that force appropriate ?
He missed as she was pulled out the way by someone else out of shot – it was due to lack of effort/trying.
That is impossible to defend as it is a copper on horseback battoning a female with her back to him
Was that photo from the miners strike at all? Its from orgreave – why do you think I posted it 🙄

Which leads onto JY's points - does the fact that the police are charged with maintaining the rule of law make their (alleged?) transgressions and failure to do so any more reprehensible?Aren't we all equally responsible for respecting the law?

To keep addressing the legitimate criticism of coppers by saying we all have is weak as there duty is greater for obvious reasons.
there transgressions are more worrying for obvious reasons

It is not the same thing at all.

Justice - agree in principle but not in the case of a unilateral focus/context
Not covering things up - agree
Holding the responsible police and the responsible miners to account - agree
Learning lessons etc - agree

Sadly, many enquiries seem to spend a lot of money and time but miss the "so what" question. I fear the same here. Like Levenson, the terms of enquiry will (if this petition is successful) most likely be phrased in a way that prohibits the most important questions being asked.

Junkyard - lazarus
Do you really think there is not a greater onus on those who uphold the law as a job to uphold the law?

Is a great question (rather than a "weak point" 😉 ) Hence I left it as such (I edited out the original "discuss..." in that para.) For sure, they have an onus. Is it greater? First thoughts - yes - but on further consideration - no, not necessarily....

I suggest you look at the rules for coppers as they make it very clear.

...I can look at their rules and those of any profession. Indeed I can look at the rules that we all live by. The result - we all equally have a responsibility to uphold the law IMO?

Like Levenson, the terms of enquiry will (if this petition is successful) most likely be phrased in a way that prohibits the most important questions being asked.

First thoughts - yes - but on further consideration - no, not necessarily....

Why do i have the same responsibily as a Tesco till worker to work on
Lets look at this another way
on one hand we have a shoplifiter and on the other hand we have the employee working in the shop stealing.
Are these also both the same as they both have the same level of responsibility?
It seems to me pretty clear there is a difference

we all equally have a responsibility to uphold the law IMO?

Yes, they are both stealing (edit a different example - two people launder money. One is a highly paid trader in a bank, The other is a lower paid employer of the banking regulator. Which is more guilty? You decide which of the information supplied is or isn't relevant)

Reason - to avoid anarchy (important for a libertarian!!)

Wrong - who knows? But fortunately, there are guidelines over and above the legal framework of the land that help to resolve these issues. Making reference to them on here is frowned upon though!!! 😉

There are plenty of current issues to get angry and wound up about that getting out and doing something might change. The British public has become defeatist/bullied into submission. Throwing oneself under the King's horse or chaining oneself to railings just doesn't happen anymore - perhaps because just going for a swim when the boat race is on earns you a jail term and people are so comfortable they won't do anything that takes them out of their comfort zone..

The miners "lost" on any reasonable measure of winning and losing and the British people have lost their will to fight for what's right and good. Politicians act with impunity because you let them. Do something!

It's so much easier to argue about ancient history.

THM you answered my question with a question and another scenario
This has not helped me understand your view.

Take the church then[ please 😉 ] - does the vicar/priest/father have to uphold the message of the Church over and above the flock ?

The answer would seem self evident.

Yes, in my mind it is self evident. We are all equally responsible to uphold the law IMO. Wearing a uniform doesn't alter that in any way. Nor does being an arbiter or upholder of the law. So in my "answer" earlier (!) both shoplifters are equally guilty in my mind. And the trader/regulator too are both guilty as in any one else involved in money laundering.

But this is a slight tangent anyway. I see v little merit in an actual enquiry. The police are held more accountable these days but remain far from perfect - who is. I doubt whether an expensive enquiry would add much to either out knowledge or our future well-being.

Re the church, I would expect that all will face their maker/judgment in exactly the same way without favour or otherwise. Hence if one chooses that as ones reference point, the debate really is "self-evident."!!!

I want to know why you think that as i already know what you think
I am four or so answers in and still no clearer as to your reason.

Gives up

O one last one what about teachers - do they have a greater responsibility to educate than any one else?

Is that one self evident enough for you 😉
Given their position do different rules apply to them?
We both know the answer to that one as well 😉

Still giving up but I genuinely did not understand how you reached your view hence i asked.

My reason is simple - on consideration, I believe that we all have equal responsibility to uphold the law. I stated that as a question at first and then repeated it as an opinion. It can't be reduced any further IMO, but then again I tend to favour categorical rather than consequential answers to moral questions (albeit not exclusively).

Just had late lunch with my son and friend who are/have both studying/studied philosophy and ethics. They started the same way. Initial reaction was that the policeman had more responsibility than the average citizen. But within two minutes and a digression into Virtue Ethics and Aristotle, fireman and arson and headline acts at Reading tonight, they both changed their mind to more of the " we all have a responsibility to be moral citizens" belief.

Still an interesting question. And then, assuming guilt on the part of some of the police. Who do you charge? The office wielding the baton, his boss, the government? All three!?!?

(no I don't think that teachers have more responsibility to teach than anyone else. God forbid if that were the case! Our head makes the same point to parents at the start of every year!)

I tend to favour categorical rather than consequential answers to moral questions

IGMC

Very funny (even if it has been used before!!).

In between the cricket and a little work, have found some interesting articles on police ethics but none that address the question directly! The US ones tend to revert to religion pretty quickly!!

Haven't read the whole thread but for STW's supposedly leftie bias there's an awful lot of people on the first page trying to defend/play down the police beating the shit out of a load of people then framing them.

Shut it handwringer 😉

Yes I did not find anything either thm
I tend to avoid american stuff tbh or religious stuff in general
It may surprise you to learn I am not a fan of the Divine Command theory
but we can leave that for the religious thread 😉