Hello hive mind,
I was hoping you could give your thoughts on my girlfriends current employment situation.
She recently left the fashion industry where she worked as a design assistant because she felt that the industry was too callous and had little room for progression, and has decided to follow her passion and train as a chef.
Her sensible approach to this (in my opinion) was to get a job at a restaurant, and let them know that she had no experience but was willing to work as a waitress and do a few kitchen shifts on the side, informing them that she’d be enrolling on a catering course at the next possible opportunity, along with a couple of short courses at a well-respected food school. She soon caught the attention of the kitchen staff and has been asked if she’d like to go full time in the kitchen from April, which is awesome. Right? Well, not really. She’s currently working there on a casual basis for minimum wage, but is now being asked to sign a contract to work 45 hours per week, for the grand total of £12.5k p.a. This is not an apprenticeship, so is clearly illegal.
Generally, everyone she talks to about this says not to work there and to report them, but she’s conflicted because she is gaining valuable experience at a ‘reputable’ (to the public, at least) restaurant. I’m not really for it because of the exploitative nature of it, if it’s that hard to run a business whilst paying your employees minimum wage, then IMO you shouldn’t have said business.
As it stands, if she puts her foot down about it it’s likely that she won’t be offered a contract and will have to find another job, and probably end up frying sausages at a Wetherspoons. She thinks she should just buck up and deal with it for a bit, and then when she has a reasonable amount of experience and qualifications, FO and find somewhere better.
I don’t agree with the employer’s practices, but I do see where she’s coming from. My thoughts are that if she decides not to go ahead with this job, there will be somewhere else eventually willing to take her on as a kitchen assistant and actually pay minimum wage.
Factors that might aid your opinion:
1. She has plenty of money in savings, so isn’t worried about having no spare money to put away..
2. We share a room in a privately rented shared house where the rent and bills are pittance.
3. She clearly really wants to pursue this regardless.
4. The hours at the proposed employer mean that she can’t take part in her main hobby outside of work, which she is genuinely gutted about.
The clear answer - leave, but I’m having a hard time convincing her of that.
Would appreciate your thoughts and experiences, though I anticipate them being similar to mine.
Ta!
x
If she wants to do it, then back her.
It may lead to something, or maybe 6 months down the line she will have had enough and decided nerself its not for her.
Maybe she could tell them how much she could afford to do it for, letting them know that she'd struggle to survive on less and pointing out what the minimum wage is?
Nicely, obviously.
If she is really insistent that she wants to do it, and you're really sure the contract is illegal
She could do it for a few months till she has built up the experience as much as she wants, then shop them to the low pay helpline, and they I'll have to pay her back wages.
Alternativley, sign the contract and shop them immediately, so they have to pay the right amount, and if they sack her for hopping them then she may be able to sue and get compo as a whistleblower.
Unless she's under 21 and the contract includes 9 weeks holiday a year, that's a bit poor. Almost worth reporting them to HMRC, depending on how it might affect other employees.
FWIW, I used to be a "chef". Started in much the same way - walked into a busy restaurant on Valentine's Day asking if they needed a hand and I was in. No experience, but very quickly ended up as sous. From there I did a fair bit of pub cooking to pay my way through Uni, and had a brief stint after uni as head chef & restaurant manager.
From my experience, one thing is for sure. Regardless of how or where your OH gets her catering experience or how much she's paid in the process, she will [i]never[/i] have time to pursue her hobby to the extent that she wishes. Never. You work stupid hours - I was regularly doing 3 hours prep first thing in a morning, then coming back at 3pm ready for the evening shift, usually finishing up at midnight. 6 days a week, Tuesday to Sunday, open all day weekends. The pay is never that good, even when I was the boss I probably only cleared £300-350 a week after paying staff, suppliers, overheads. For getting on 80 hours a week? I suppose by that point I already knew I wanted out of the catering industry so never really attempted to make more of it, so maybe your OH's mileage will vary.
Anyway, if she really does want to pursue it and money isn't a worry then I would suggest that #1 priority is enrolling in catering college, then getting an evening/weekend catering job to top up the funds.
Is it the only restaurant in the area? She doesn't have to wait to get heaved before looking elsewhere.
Counter-negotiate. They clearly value her or they wouldn't have offered. "I'd be happy to do it, but I expect (wage), otherwise thanks but no thanks."
how keen is she? Where does she want to go with cooking? Head chef in a starred restaurant? Or a decent cook in a gastro pub?
I've been a chef for the last 20 years, in mostly hi end places.
Back-of-an-envelope calculation suggests that £15,210 is the minimum wage she should be accepting.
https://www.gov.uk/am-i-getting-minimum-wage
Do tips count towards minimum wage over here? I've only worked bar in the service industry and that was pre-minimum wage so have no idea.
Get on a course - or even say she's on a course - and that gives her the opt-out from their contract - while rem,aiming as kitchen assistant on a more part-time basis. At least it's not so confrontational as shopping them!!
Will she be getting tips? I know it shouldn't be used to make up the minimum wage but if tips are another 5 - 10% it might make it more palatable!
As a chef, particularly as the 'new girl' she will end up working more than 45 hours a week and they'll probably not pay her for the extra hours.
She will also most likely be working split shifts which just kill you.
I know a number of chefs - from pub microwave operatives to head chefs in very decent restaurants and they all seem to work 50+ hours.
If I were in her position I would want a contract that paid the minimum wage per hour worked and not a salary for a set number of hours.
Wow, thanks for the numerous and quick replies everyone. I'll try to respond to some of the suggested tacts now.
I think that she would be against shopping them in as she's only a fledgling member of the team and doesn't want to burn any bridges. As I understand it the restaurant in question, whilst not starred or anything, is quite nice and well respected for its high-level cooking.
We live in Nottingham city, so there are plenty of other restaurants around that she could apply to. The problem being that she does enjoy working there, it's just the contract that's causing issues.
Good to hear from some chefs/former chefs, if you have any other sage advice (chef pun?) I'd appreciate it.
More information for those who have asked questions:
- Her ultimate goal is to be a pastry chef. In what capacity she's not sure of yet. She does, however, not want to limit herself and only learn these skills, so is taking whatever experience she can at the moment.
- She's been accepted and is due to enroll on a part-time college catering course starting in September. They've agreed to let her in at level three because of her previous qualifications and based on an interview, which means it will only be a year before she has a formal qualification.
- She's just completed a three day artisan breadmaking course and is also going to do a patisserie course at the same establishment at some point later in the year.
- I'm not sure if tips do count towards minimum wage. As it's a relative unknown, I would imagine it wouldn't be possible to regulate? She does get tips but they're minimal because they're pooled and shared among staff.
- She currently works over 45 hours a week, and is likely to continue doing that, but is on an hourly wage at the moment so is paid for every hour she works. If she goes onto a salaried contract, as someone has mentioned, she won't be paid for the extra hours above the 45 in her contract.
And for those who've asked if she's keen, the answer is yes. She's given up a reasonably paid job to follow a passion and really wants to make something of it. I back her 100% in this decision, but the conditions just seem a bit questionable.
Keep your thoughts coming please!
Since it is illegal to pay a wage below the legal minimum I can only assume that this is either a non-reputable establishment OR they are 'pricing' it an apprentice-type position.
Has she actually queried the salary vs hours?
FWIW £12.5k at 45 hours pw = £ 5.34, so just over half what we pay our cleaner at work...
My first question to them is if she's on an hourly contract would be why do they want to move her to salaried?
There are very few advantages to her - very difficult to (legally) give those on differing contracts differing holiday entitlements, sick pay and other employment rights and she is getting paid for the work she actually does.
I appreciate the attraction to her in terms of the experience being gained etc but it does not seem fair they should screw her over on wages.
As above I would ask her to question the amount of hours and the salary in a friendly/innocent kind of way. This may either..
A. Get them to change the salary to what it should be
B. They get shirty in which case I would advise her to look elsewhere.
There is no way she will be doing just 45 hrs and if a percentage of the tips doesn't go to the kitchen she'll be on 3 or 4 quid an hour.
EDIT. if she really wants to be there mug for a bit let her learn a lesson.
If it is the opportunity of a lifetime it may be worth letting them get away with the illegal and insulting wage offered
otherwise the wage and conditions is likely to be an indication of how they will treat you in employment.
Or the half way house of take it and look for another job
How old is she and what sort of timescale is she looking at before she actually earns a half decent wage out of catering. You have to consider that she hasno real experience so will have to start at the bottom and work some pretty shit hours and if she is going to do that she may as well work somewhere that has a few aa rosettes or Michelin stars as although she will get fairly well exploited it will look very impressive on her cv further down the line. .i worked as a chef for 35years and had many great times and experiences but it can be very hard work , very hot , stressful and you have to deal with virtually every customer knowing. How to do the job better than you or having some obscure food allergy . Current food regulations are virtually impossible to implement properly and as a chef you can be liable if you give people food poisoning , mind you everybody who eats your food then has a skinful and wakes up feeling rough will think you have given them food poisoning . Getting good staff can also be a major problem , and good kitchen porters are like hens teeth . Staff not turning up because they are pissed can also be a big problem. In short try to talk some sense into her .
In catering would it really be a 45hour week in practice?
Yeah 45 or less hours can happen but ime you have to be prepared to stick up for yourself or you will be exploited.
If they're happy to shaft her on the pay they'll gladly shaft her elsewhere too, I'd not stay clear.
My lads earning slighrly more an hour per shift doing KP on our local pub, he's only 15 and is loving it.
The chefs taken him under his wing and is already getting him to prepare all the starters.
The offer of a salary is an outdated ruse to get maximum hours out of her for the least amount of money. They say 45 hours but will no doubt make her sign a working time directive opt-out, meaning that she'll be working 48+ hours as standard.
They get away with these practices because people see them to be 'reputable' but they deserve to be reported.
I manage a restaurant in Notts City centre and our kitchen porters start on £6.70p/h and get fed on shift, twice on a split shift. I suggest that rather than work for somebody who won't even pay a legal wage, she try any of the other 1000 kitchens in Nottingham. Email is in profile if she fancies firing a cv over and having a chat.
So apart from the under paying which is not on, when is she going to find time to do the courses she wants to do?
I'd pop back and suggest that you thought minimum wage for 45hrs was x or decline and say due to the fact that she has study coming up full time isn't right for her.
As other have said more than likely a trick to get unpaid overtime too.
You don't mention how old she is. There's nothing in a salary of 12.5k for 45 hours a week to stop her being paid overtime, as far as minimum wage goes you need to tell us how old and also what holiday allowance unpaid lunch breaks etc are involved.
If those 45 hours were split across 6 days with half hour for lunch each day with 6 weeks holiday which would be the minimum that would easily make it minimum wage.
Tips etc can count and bonuses can used to make up minimum wage. If have thought if she's on minimum wage now she wouldn't get a real time cut, have the contract checked by a specialist?
OK i am not holding back . I will tell it how it is. If the staff at pubs and restaurants were to all get Minimum wage for trainees and rising with promotion responsibility then your meal would cost £38.00 a main course .WOULD YOU PAY IT . I will answer for you . now consider these points.
You pay a garage £120.00 upwards to do 3 hours work on your car ?
A plumber or electrician £80 for a 1 hour job
ect ect but then you want a steak for £14.00 ???
I know it costs £ 6.00 in Aada of fresco's blah blah,
The reality is this . If it is a busy restaurant with 100 covers a service there will be 4 chefs maybe 5 1 or 2 kp a manager an assistant manager and maybe a bar man or 2 and 6 servers so 15 to 17 , then maybe a cleaner all these need paying as well as the building and suppliers .
Now your girlfriend may love cooking at home and may even excel at a dinner party how lovely . In a professional kitchen where every chef has 10 to 15 jobs on the go constantly for 15 hours a day 5 days a week i will tell you now as a trainee she has little to offer and will contribute by picking and washing lettuce and herbs prepping veg or making some basic desserts a lot slower than a trained chef . So even though she is not officially an apprentice she IS AN APPRENTICE . For this job and the next 5 or ten jobs until she really finds here feet and her palette and stops drooling over shitty cookbooks and actually uses that £40 instead of a book by working for free at a top place hoping to get a position .
It is a brutal brutal job and i love it . I have worked in the past for Marco Pierre White , Gordon ramsey , JC Novelli , i have run successful places for 15 years as well as Working for 2 Formula 1 teams for 3 years , in fact i turned down a 3 year contract with Mercedes F1 team in January. Now some weeks i work 90 hours over weeks a little less at 70 hours i have done this for 25 years . I love it and i have worked many times for free just for experience or even dropped salary to work somewhere just to have it on my CV .
Cooking is a passion and not about the money . It has been kind to me and i have worked hard and missed a lot to be where i am today .
Bottom line she is an apprentice till she can really cook , look at boiling point Gordon Ramsey on you tube and do not focus on ramsey focus on the chefs faces and there reactions , I was there in that kitchen at that time we thrived on the pressure because we knew we were cooking the best food in the UK for one of the best chefs. he is/was a $wat and a bully but he could cook, we started at 6am and finished around 1am . Then we partied and then went back and did it again . Can she look past the blocking for over cooking cutting something wrong and being slow ?? you have to want to do it ?
I will tell it how it is. If the staff at pubs and restaurants were to all get Minimum wage for trainees and rising with promotion responsibility then your meal would cost £38.00 a main course .WOULD YOU PAY IT .
Not disputing anything you say in the rest of your post but this is the real problem. Society has decided that there is a minimum wage, people also keep going on about a living wage which is normally higher than the minimum. The OP's other half is lucky that this job doesn't have to support her but to say that you can pay below minimum isn't really on.
An apprentice will get (hopefully) formal and structured training along side the work which is the deal you do when you join that scheme. You shouldn't take one without the other.
a 3 day artisan bread course.. she d have been better off buying a dozen different loaves from a real baker.. i ve worked in michelin starred restaurants and we did it for the craic 100 mile an hour all the hours god sent start at lunchtime finish at midnight drink play cards till 4..
the lad aboves spot on a real kitchen is no place for wannabes its a coal face for grafters with real talent who do nothing else but cook..
ps. and sad to say you can say good bye to your marraige
even though she is not officially an apprentice she IS AN APPRENTICE
You can justify it however you like, but the law would disagree with you.
If the staff at pubs and restaurants were to all get Minimum wage for trainees and rising with promotion responsibility then your meal would cost £38.00 a main course .WOULD YOU PAY IT . I will answer for you . now consider these points.
You pay a garage £120.00 upwards to do 3 hours work on your car ?
A plumber or electrician £80 for a 1 hour job
Garages can be rip offs yes but not all charge crazy rates like that.
Sparkies- I was quoted £100 to sort out a <1hour job. That I can't understand. Especially as nowadays you can't pay by cheque so what is declared?
Restaurants- I thought they had quite good markup on food and drink?
Agreed with most of the above, if it was officially regarded as an apprenticeship then fair enough, but it's not.
For those who've asked, she's 27.
OP. I can see pros and cons with taking the kitchen role.
Pro's - its kitchen experience and with her course coming in September it can be treated as short term
Cons - the pay is rubbish to the point of being exploitative and whilst it "ticks the box" is it really good learning experience
My 2 cents would be to keep doing the waitressing (which I assume pays better) and spend time speaking with and studying what they do in the kitchen and practice at home. Her primiary objective right now is to develop her skills ahead of her course, she can think about the right jobs after the course. As an aside pastry is the first course taught at the Cordon Bleu school as it teaches discipline and accuracy in cooking (weights, following recipes, oven temperatures and timings etc). Also as per above working is restaurants is terrible for work/life balance, no time for the hobby she better get used to.
Plumbers and garages - the first has to travel to/from the job so 1 hour at your site means possibly double that. Garages are full of expensive equipment and tools, the cost of these needs to be covered.
My view would be that if it's a decent establishment with a quality team who are actually prepared to teach her some skills alongside the hard graft, then the low wage can be accepted, as it will look good on her CV. If she spends all her time washing lettuce, then it doesn't sound particularly worthwhile.
If it's some bog-standard gaff only one step up from a Harvester then why bother?
christ, maybe another line of work.
I've never worked in a kitchen but known plenty who have... And basically, sane rules of employment didn't apply. For everyone I knew, minimum pay didn't apply, working your official hours didn't apply, and bullying and exploitation was pretty much how the places were run. They all thought that any day now they were going to be a chef (even the dishwashers). I thought they were all mental but the less you sleep, the more you dream.
Not to say it's like this in every kitchen but they worked in a few different quality ones and the expectation was basically that you treated it like a hobby you loved beyond reason, and the restaurant treated you like a something between a convict and an insect. All time highlight was the guy who got assaulted by a "name" chef and considered that a career opportunity "You don't understand man, this is how I prove I've got what it takes!" I know my girlfriend at the time didn't tell me half of what went on because it'd have ended with some burst faces...
It's a strange business. I guess if you're outside it, it's impossible to understand really, I certainly didn't get it.
I had a trial in a kitchen once (for part time work). I didn't last half a day before they took me to one side and said 'your not what we need/looking for'.
Drac - Moderator
If they're happy to shaft her on the pay they'll gladly shaft her elsewhere too, I'd not stay clear.
POSTED 11 HOURS AGO #
Where will they shaft her ?? Fnar fnar
Sorry couldn't resist
Alternativley, sign the contract and shop them immediately, so they have to pay the right amount, and if they sack her for hopping them then she may be able to sue and get compo as a whistleblower.
Then watch the job offers come rolling in.
If it seems she is going to get the experience she wants there then obviously the temptation is to accept. However a boss once said to me regarding starting a new gone "If you don't arrive when you arrive, you never arrive at all" (thick Glasgow accent required). She should try for more cash using the "it's either an official apprenticeship or minimum wages at the very least" approach. If you don't ask you don't get (says he who has nothing).