Yep, it's fraud.
+1 for martinhutch above and print the photos you've taken to show the install of your speedfix parts then ask him to show you where his hep parts have been fitted.
After that give him the option of either a refund or small claims court - and refer to reputational damage through negative online reviews referring to fraud.
We had our home decorated about 6 months ago. Not bad, a few snags here and there. General standard was ok.
BUT
The decorator insisted on using a 'new technology' water-based paint for the woodwork. We tried arguing we wanted a nice shiny gloss finish, but he was adamant this stuff would be great. OK.
It was SHIT.
Unfortunately, we paid him before the job was completed. To make matters worse, he and his wife are lifelong close friends of my wife. And otherwise, a truly lovely bloke. Their kids are surrogate niece and nephew to us. Initially, he tried claiming that there was nothing much wrong with the paintwork. He then admitted it was substandard, and agreed to make good. My view is that he's had his opportunity to do it properly, and failed. It's not like it's one or two snags (the other snags weren't fixed in spite of him promising to do so before he finished), it's all the woodwork in the entire house. It's terrible. What a disaster.
So we're now in a position where what we actually want is a significant partial refund, and to have to get someone else to do it properly. He, obviously, wants to come in and do it again. But we're fearful we'll just end up with another substandard job. So there's the potential for a seriously damaged friendship at stake. It's a disaster. We're facing losing a significant chunk of money, in order to not let that happen. But that's still not right, and isn't really a proper resolution; we'll always be resentful unless we get at least some of our money back. It's significantly more than the OP is losing out on, too.
WWSTWD?
It was SHIT
How so? Flaky, poor coverage? Brush marks?
Don't know why he insisted. It's the customers choice to go water or oil-based once furnished with the facts regarding the pros and cons of each. Water-based won't go yellow for example. But is less hard-wearing and will show brush marks more.
He, obviously, wants to come in and do it again. But we’re fearful we’ll just end up with another substandard job.
I'm not seeing the problem here. Why not let him, and find out? It's not going to cost you anything and is unlikely to be worse.
we’ll always be resentful unless we get at least some of our money back.
He screwed up, he's offered to make it right. Do you actually want it making right or do you want the cash? If he doesn't fix it, someone else will have to and you're starting again.
I only use people who I have some collateral with, fed up of being binned off by people who dont really want to do the work. Probably overpay but at least it's done properly.
Next refurb I m getting a tradey to supervise, he knows all the shortcuts and has the balls to stop a bad tradey half way and get another in.
I 've supervised past jobs and even using good people, they really try and get the job done asap so they can move on.
Sadly with property boom all trades have been flat out so could get away with bad practices.
Thanks for all the views. I had to get the leak fixed last night as I had the worktops being fitted this morning, so no time to get him back in. Plus I’m not sure I would have been civil on the phone.
I will definitely be speaking to the builder who recommended him, as for getting a refund or trying to pursue him for a refund I’m not sure I have the fight, just too many things to get sorted at the moment, and after 4 months I just want the job done, not chasing around people. I’m getting a bit sick of jobs getting half done and then the trade bugger off for a week to do something else.
I am almost at the stage where I’m comfortable taking over, so I think other than the removal of the gas cooker and capping I will do the rest of the plumbing myself. I wanted him to try and trace some rust in the hot water but to be honest I’ll be better to just do it myself.
Anyone have any useful links for first fixing a sink, washing machine , tumble dryer and water softener? Feeds I’m fine with, I’m wondering about the best waste connections. All the kit is next to each other and about half a meter from the old dishwashers drain. I’ll be off to Screwfix Sunday morning and it’ll be Sunday nights job. I’ll clawback the lost budget that way.
How so? Flaky, poor coverage? Brush marks?
We were promised a near-gloss finish. The thing with proper oil based gloss paint, is that it takes a long time to dry, so you get that 'annealing' which leaves that lovely smooth shiny glossy finish. Water-based paint dries too quickly so you don't get such a shine. Ok, but the actual standard of painting was terrible too. Streaky, uneven finish, brush mark, runs, the lot. Dreadful. One of the worst paint jobs I've ever seen, and definitely the very worst from a professional. I've rarely seen a complete beginner do worse, actually.
Don’t know why he insisted. It’s the customers choice to go water or oil-based once furnished with the facts regarding the pros and cons of each. Water-based won’t go yellow for example. But is less hard-wearing and will show brush marks more.
Had it been done well, we could have accepted the slightly less than glossy finish you will inevitably get with water based paint. His instance was based on 'health reasons'. Ok, fair enough. This we now know wasn't really the case; he just wanted the easiest job possible.
I’m not seeing the problem here. Why not let him, and find out? It’s not going to cost you anything and is unlikely to be worse.
If he did such a poor job in the beginning, we have no confidence in him improving much on that. Why let him **** it up twice?
He screwed up, he’s offered to make it right. Do you actually want it making right or do you want the cash? If he doesn’t fix it, someone else will have to and you’re starting again.
I don't really see why, in a professional context, we need to give him a second chance. As I said, it's not like it's a couple of small snags, it's the whole ****ing job.
Had it been done well, we could have accepted the slightly less than glossy finish you will inevitably get with water based paint. His instance was based on ‘health reasons’. Ok, fair enough. This we now know wasn’t really the case; he just wanted the easiest job possible.
I doubt it. Water-based is a pain in the arse cos it takes more coats and doesn't lie flat. If he said 'health reasons'? maybe he was thinking of you having to live with the fumes for a week. Something doesn't add up here. I think you need to let the guy put things right or eat the cost of getting someone else in to redo it. If you don't mind losing him as a friend and have time to burn then you could try chasing him for a partial refund, but that does look like you're just trying to get money off.
He screwed up, he’s offered to make it right. Do you actually want it making right or do you want the cash? If he doesn’t fix it, someone else will have to and you’re starting again.
He shouldn't' be having to offer to make it right. this is the point. He's an experienced professional. Turns out that he's only used this water based crap once before, so we're sort of guinea pigs. We wanted top quality work, and believe me, we've paid top dollar even for London. So for him to walk away thinking it was anywhere near acceptable, is really poor on his part. We shouldn't be having to try and negotiate anything.
If you don’t mind losing him as a friend and have time to burn then you could try chasing him for a partial refund, but that does look like you’re just trying to get money off.
The friendship is more important. But we do need to have it out properly. We can't leave it as it is. He knows he's ****ed up, so the onus is on him to sort it. He hasn't even offered any dates to come and sort it. So we're going to get someone else in anyway. I'm forbidden from saying anything, as I'm not as diplomatic as my wife. I did have a massive go at him when I discovered he was sanding paintwork down with a power sander without any dust collection. What a mess. Dust was blowing under doors and through keyholes. This is basic stuff! I think we're going to have to get a 'neutral' mutual friend to have a quiet word. Best resolution is an apology and significant refund. Worst thing for him, would be losing our friendship. So it's down to him to fix it really.
Why let him * it up twice?
What do you have to lose?
I don’t really see why, in a professional context, we need to give him a second chance. As I said, it’s not like it’s a couple of small snags, it’s the whole * job.
If you're playing that card then "in a professional context" you would be legally obliged to give him the opportunity to repair the unsatisfactory service before you were entitled to seek financial compensation.
With a "lifelong close friend" though, this is into the realms of AITA fodder on Reddit.
So for him to walk away thinking it was anywhere near acceptable, is really poor on his part. We shouldn’t be having to try and negotiate anything.
Unless you're explaining your situation badly, he hasn't, and you aren't. He's offered to sort it out and your response to this supposedly precious family friend is "money plz kkthxbi".
No?
What do you have to lose?
Having to get someone else in to do it yet again afterwards?
If you’re playing that card then “in a professional context” you would be legally obliged to give him the opportunity to repair the unsatisfactory service before you were entitled to seek financial compensation.
Nope. You can demand a refund if the work is unsatisfactory. CRA 2015. He assured us everything would be satisfactory by the time he finished. As he has subsequently admitted it's not, we are entitled to ask for a refund.
With a “lifelong close friend” though, this is into the realms of AITA fodder on Reddit.
What's that supposed to mean?
No?
No.
Dust was blowing under doors and through keyholes. This is basic stuff!
Is it? Did you specify and agree to these CSI-level standards? Do you live in The National Archives? I'd say keeping the door closed is 'basic stuff'. Taping up keyholes is unusual but easily accommodated if agreed upon first. You sound like a nightmare tbh 🙂
On the flip side he's gambled on the water-based stuff having little experience with it. It's not turned out well so now he needs to put it right. Such is life. But you won't let him will you?
Is it?
Yes. Especially if you've cited 'health reasons' for not wanting to use oil-based paint. I do a fair bit of woodworking, repairs etc, and use all sorts of power tools. You don't use a power sander without some sort of dust reduction/extraction. Especially not in a furnished home.
I’d say keeping the door closed is ‘basic stuff’
I'd say reading something properly is 'basic stuff': 😉
Dust was blowing under doors
Taping up keyholes is unusual but easily accommodated if agreed upon first
He'd assured me he would be using a dust extractor/vacuum. I had to get our Henry out as he'd not brought anything himself.
You sound like a nightmare tbh 🙂
We've actually been more than fair and patient with him. I am a nightmare though; I expect the best standards. Especially if I'm paying top dollar. Why wouldn't you?
On the flip side he’s gambled on the water-based stuff having little experience with it. It’s not turned out well so now he needs to put it right.
We're not paying for him to experiment; we stated what we wanted, were specific and clear. It's down to him to get experience elsewhere; perhaps in his own home. Whatever.
But you won’t let him will you?
He's had ample time to come and sort it. It's been 6 months. He's failed to do so, and hasn't mentioned it since. It really is down to him to contact us, arrange times to come and do the work, etc.
Yeah, fair enough. Only pulling your leg mate. I'm sure you're not a nightmare. Just trying to see it from the other guy's position. 'Decent' water based trim paint is a relatively new development so even time served craftsmen are learning the ropes with it. I suppose he should be testing it at home first or something, but in the real world we all take these gambles.
I’m sure you’re not a nightmare
Oh I am. But I generally get good results. I'm most demanding of myself; I will always strive to do my very best with most things. Nobody's perfect. But I think if someone has promised to deliver a 'top dollar' job, then that's what you should get, 1st time. This guy is very experienced, has worked in the job for decades now. Which makes it all the more surprising (and embarrassing for him) that this job as substandard.
in the real world we all take these gambles
If I want you to gamble with my money, I'll give you a tenner to go down the bookies and put it on Red Rum to win in the 3.15 at Ascot*. If I want you to paint my house to a good standard, I want you to do just that. Leave your gambling form someone/somewhere else.
*I know nothing about horse racing. Ask me anything; I won't know it.
Turns out that he’s only used this water based crap once before, so we’re sort of guinea pigs. We wanted top quality work, and believe me, we’ve paid top dollar even for London.
He’s had ample time to come and sort it. It’s been 6 months. He’s failed to do so, and hasn’t mentioned it since. It really is down to him to contact us, arrange times to come and do the work, etc.
Can't be that much of a friend. Charges full market rate and goes missing after ****ing up job. Sounds like friends is past tense anyway.
Can’t be that much of a friend. Charges full market rate and goes missing after **** up job. Sounds like friends is past tense anyway.
He’s ****ed up. I’ve no idea why. It’s clearly very embarrassing for him. As for ‘full market rate’; I would never exploit a friendship to get a discount. Cos that’s shitty and disrespectful imo. If I’m asking someone to do some work for me, I’m paying full whack, end of. I’m not a cheapskate. I accept that other people have different morals.
Just ask him back to do it with oil based gloss. If he can't then DIY.
It's very tricky having friends doing work for you- agreed. I won't even recommend tradesman to friends just in case.
This is a good lesson in not employing friends.
Sounds like a crap situation
Having to get someone else in to do it yet again afterwards?
You're going to have to do that anyway if he doesn't fix it. 🤷♂️
Nope. You can demand a refund if the work is unsatisfactory. CRA 2015.
No you can't. You can demand a refund if initial remediation is unsuccessful or attempting to remediate wouldn't be practical.
He’s had ample time to come and sort it. It’s been 6 months. He’s failed to do so, and hasn’t mentioned it since. It really is down to him to contact us, arrange times to come and do the work, etc.
This is new information. If you've been trying to get him to fix it for months then yes, you're correct, that would be in breach of CRA because you're being excessively inconvenienced and so you can ask for money back. Though really, if you've ignored it for six months because you can't be arsed chasing him them then that's not really his fault is it.
You have a very odd grasp of what lifelong friends look like.
What’s that supposed to mean?
That Google's down?
This guy is very experienced, has worked in the job for decades now.
He, obviously, wants to come in and do it again. But we’re fearful we’ll just end up with another substandard job.
Does not compute.
This tale is getting more bizarre by the minute.
You don’t use a power sander without some sort of dust reduction/extraction.
I've just wandered round the back. kitchen fitters have been sanding worktops with zero extraction. it looks like it's bloody snowed in there.
to be fair the worktops looks good. just sooooo much dust.
Did they seal under the doors and tape over the keyhole?
I’ve just wandered round the back. kitchen fitters have been sanding worktops with zero extraction. it looks like it’s bloody snowed in there.
I find it bizarre that people work this way.
The more crap you can extract at source the better. Work smarter , not harder.
Or just leave the shit for someone else to clean up
Less clean up and less crap breathed in.
I'm still sweeping
Wouldn't get away with that on a managed site. I sell lots of vacuum cleaners within a pto. So when you switch your sander on, the hoover starts and visa versa.
Anything else is just making more work and a potential hazard to health.
1st fix plumbing. I not a trained plumber so take this amy way.
You need hot and cold feeds up on wall under sink with iso valves on them pointed out. You need a waste pipe low enougj to accommodate a trap 40mm next to the hot and cold feeds. Poking out 6in
Watet softener, dunno judt cold Water feed imagime.
Ditto dishwasher. Cold water to iso up adjacent to the hole in the setvice void of the next cabinet. Waste for dw is normally run along to the trap or into the waste below the sink so a simgle 44mm hole goes out the build.
Then buy a twim appliance trap.
Do not run 40mm waste behind the integrated dw. By the time you space it off the wall there's usually not enough room. Some guys use 2 x washing machine drain hose to get to the appliance trap.
Feel free to ignore, amend or delete as applicable, ad i say im. No plumber.
I find it bizarre that people work this way.
The more crap you can extract at source the better. Work smarter , not harder.Or just leave the shit for someone else to clean up
You got there in the end...
I’m still sweeping
👌
No you can’t. You can
Lol! You're literally arguing with yourself. 🤣 Still; at least you've now become more knowledgeable about the CRA 2015 as a result of all this, so let's take that as a win.
It’s very tricky having friends doing work for you- agreed
This is a good lesson in not employing friends.
True. Although tbh this has never been a problem before; our plumber/heating engineer is a good friend, and he's never let us down, and always been excellent. We're happy to recommend him to others, and he now does work for our neighbours who are also very happy with his work. Another friend previously did our decorating and some external works, and he was great. I've worked for friends/friends' employers/companies many times, and people have been more than happy with what I've done. If you go in with a professional attitude from the beginning, then it's can be absolutely fine. In this case though, it's just unfortunate that it's not worked out well. At the end of the day though, it really is a first world middle class problem, and ultimately not that big a deal. This thread's given me the chance to get a bit more perspective on things, so I'm sure the issue can be resolved reasonably well. We'll be laughing about it in years to come. Life's too short.
As for dust and mess; always strive to keep this to a minimum. "Less clean up and less crap breathed in." 100%. I've got a Bosch power sander that when connected to a vacuum, leaves an astonishingly small amount of dust. Pro level kit is now so good. The mark of a good worker is someone who cleans up after themselves.
So. Do you need some bombers or did he admit to the fraud and repay some of the money?
We need answers goddammit
As for dust and mess; always strive to keep this to a minimum. “Less clean up and less crap breathed in.” 100%. I’ve got a Bosch power sander that when connected to a vacuum, leaves an astonishingly small amount of dust. Pro level kit is now so good. The mark of a good worker is someone who cleans up after themselves.
I would use a power sander indoors if only no other choice, much prefer hand-sanding. But had to use my Milwaukee sander attached to the end of a Henry recently. I may as well have not bothered. dust everywhere. What did I do wrong?
he isn't onsite. I wanted to talk to the main builder. he agreed with me that the plumber had used my materials. he had suggested he might have forgotten... Still not sure whether to kick off. trying to get anyone on site to finish things is becoming a nightmare. I fitted the sink waste and boiling tap myself yesterday and pla to do the rest of the plumbing myself. it's not hard. the fact I have to wait weeks for people at a time means even if it takes me a few hours longer the project is moving forward. I've pulled a couple of additional jobs from the main builder stating its budget concerns due to the extra plumbing costs. which is partly is, but it's also I want them to finish some jobs before we start more. hopefully him loosing some work might mean he has a word.
re dust I actually have a festool sander and extractor, bought to sand back lead paint and there is no dust.
in the scheme of things it wasn't overly expensive either.
Lol! You’re literally arguing with yourself. 🤣 Still; at least you’ve now become more knowledgeable about the CRA 2015 as a result of all this, so let’s take that as a win.
I'm well aware of the legislation thanks, I just didn't see the need to copy and paste it in response to the half-story you initially described.
Anyway. How's the OP getting on?
Do not run 40mm waste behind the integrated dw. By the time you space it off the wall there’s usually not enough room. Some guys use 2 x washing machine drain hose to get to the appliance trap.
Feel free to ignore, amend or delete as applicable, ad i say im. No plumber.
Also, check and double check that your sink holes/sizes are well clear of your dishwasher (if it's next to the sink). Otherwise you may have to 'adjust' the casing of your dishwasher with an angle grinder. 🙂 *
*kitchen fit in my first flat. Other top bodges included chiselling a slot in the wall to accommodate the end of the worktop because the corners weren't square.
