I'm in the middle of a large kitchen extension. So far there have been a few hiccups, but its largely been progressing well.
I've been working off a mixture of T&M and fixed price with various trades. All these guys know each other, work really well together and so far finished work has been very good.
But..... I have just been ripped off, probably to the tune of £500 by the plumber. The rub is, I need the guy to finish the job as he is gas cert.
He is on T&M and after 4 days has just billed £900 for materials. That was for a soil stack + reconnections, 5m run of copper for gas, and first fix on the kitchen. I actually had a whole load of speedfit pipe, conduit and connectors which I provided to the plumber to use.
Now he claims he didn't use it, and that he used his own hep stuff. And that he has no idea where my materials have gone. He adds 20% to materials (which is farily standard). After an akward conversation I ended up paying as I need him to do the gas work and the rest of the plumbing and I don't want to hold the work up (theres a utility to do as well).
Just been looking under the skirting, and as well as a leak (!) I can see clear as day the pipework is marked speedfit and the connectors are also speedfit. Just costed up the soil stack and its approx £200 in mats from screwfix.
So i reckon I've been done to the tune of around £500. Really annoyed I've paid. Probably have to chalk that up to experience. Its alot of money when you are on an ever tightenign budget.
I have photos of the speedfit stuff, and not best pleased there is a leak, right under all the units that have just been fitted.
Options -
1. send the plumber the photos with something along the lines of 'wtf...',
2. speak to his builder & kitchen fitter mates with a 'wtf...'
3. try to find my own plumber at short notice,
4. do the rest of the work myself. although its commissioning a boiling water tap and a water softner which are a little more involved than I've done before.
I very much doubt I have any chance of getting the money back. I feel like an idiot
Ask for the money back, which you won’t get btw.
If he’s clearly used the materials you supplied and is denying it, ask him to leave and find another plumber.
Don’t even bother with his crappy explanation He’s a thief and a liar not someone I’d want in my house.
He’s the reason honest tradesman get a bad reputation.
Absolutely. Then pan him online. Reviews matter. Or set about him with a set of stilsons.
Bin him off I'm ex trades. if your certain he has used your stuff tell the others just because they know each other don't take it for granted they are friends.
Will he service his work if it went tits up in 6 months?
He came across as a really nice guy, even gave me a hand with getting the worktops in when I asked him to help out because they were bloody heavy.
Being ripped off, or people trying to was one of the reasons I started doing alot of work DIY. As things have been going well, i've kind of let my guard down with these guys. I would hate to think because the job is drawing to a close they are starting to try to sting me.
I'm not naturally a trusting person. no reciepts for materials, no payment from now on.
Can't see how he can even justify the 20% markup on the materials he provided when he went to pick it in the middle of the day for 2 hours when I was paying his rate. I could have easily got screwfix to deliver it for free or would have popped down myself if I'd know it was going to save hundreds of pounds....
Really kicking myself. Was talking to the missus this morning about having to careful with what we spend on christmas for the kids and I've just given away £500
I think you should already be looking for somebody else but, I'd get him back in, talk a bit over a tea then drop in a normal conversation something about using your parts and the leak.
Catch him off guard mid tea and see if he is still as relaxed as previous when confronted calmly.
Then explain that you would like him to finish the job and give you a refund of £500.
Chances are he'll be off before you can get to the last bit but worth a go.
If he agrees, watch the 'trucker with an f' like a Hawk.
I couldn’t let that lie. If you are 100% certain he’s done what you say then I’d pull him up on it and walk him off site. He’s stolen from you, there’s no getting away from that. Agree with reviews etc, maybe even threaten to call the police.
Assuming the other tradesmen are decent folks they’ll hopefully carry on as before, maybe even help find a new plumber. If they were thinking of ripping you off too you will have sent a message.
Having read a few other tradesmen on here saying how things are tightening up I’m amazed this has happened. If there is less work about then a few bad reviews might actually do him some harm.
We had similar with a builder last year, although that was to do with over-ordering, not finishing a job and, well, blah to the tune of about £400. Anyway, try not to feel like an idiot - the fault is entirely with him.
Well I've fixed the leak. absolute ball ache to get to right I'm the corner. had to sort it now as worktops are going on in the morning.
it looks like he ran out of my speedfit 90s and used one of the old ones I had knocking about in the bottom of the box. he didn't even use fresh inserts. I can tell because they have black stuff on. would have replaced the 90 connector but as all mine have mysteriously disappeared I refitted with new inserts and pipe cut cleanly at 90 leak fixed. did have to cut the main pipe and put and inline in to be able to pull the pipe into arms reach
so. ripped off and bodged job.
I'm going to talk to the main builder Monday about it and see if he has any other plumbers. if not I'm doing the rest myself. it's not rocket science.
work wise these guys are rushed off their feet still. my builder has been sharing jobs so our build is much slower than I wanted. part of the reason I don't want to throw any more spanners in the works
Bin him off and give him negative reviews on every possible platform. He’s a thief.
Get him back to fix the leak, be there when he opens it up to look "Oh, that's looks like the pipework I supplied, that must be where it went". See what he says then bin him off
Maybe a chat to explain you've checked, show him he's made a "mistake" and give him a chance to set things right.
Then never use him again and tell all the other trades, who may reconsider recommending him in future.
before I put any reviews on line etc... I will give him a chance to make things good, maybe he has genuinely forgotten he used all my kit and accidently used 200% as the markup on his calculator rather than 20.
before I put any reviews on line etc… I will give him a chance to make things good,
Yep, stay neutral and calm but firm.
Give him a chance to save face.
In reply to that
No way, hep20 is noticeably different to JG speedfit. Some guys will only use JG, some only Hep, others still run in copper but use tectite sprint single use push fit. Then there are some who will always run copper and solder as they go.
And he hasn't ripped you off for £900. He did a fair bit of work and used his knowledge and experience to also comply with build regs. However, he has effectively stolen the fittings by claiming and charging for hep, and using the pre purchased JG, then charged maybe £250 to £350 more than the jobs worth.
I dont know exactly how many days he was on site, running around time etc. Plus soil stacks are cheap, strap boss kits also but manifolds and connectors do add up.
You dont need him back, amd you will not get a refund. Its crap but there's alot of work for plumbers at the moment.
You still should be able to find one who will fit you in around other jobs as they get cancelled at last minute regularly on second fix where other work has overrun.
he was £250 a day. 4 days work. billed £1980 for the work stated above.
he was pretty slow compared to other trades, plus disappearing off to get materials for 2hrs at a time
builder also removed the old stack for him and drilled alot of the holes. and has paid for the skip....
with my quick tot up the mats were in the region of £400 with markup. that's using the rates I get at screwfix
Which is probably almost exactly what he will have paid, maybe 10% off on certain items if they were on special offer.
250 day is pretty much standard day rate, the problem is, and this is without seeing the work. It sounds like 2 full days work.
Builders will have let him kmow what needed doing, so maybe a 0730 screefix run, then at work all day with a 430pm finish and potentially another sf collection. Ditto day 2. If matey builder is sds drilling the wall and probably holding the 110 soil stack in place while its clamped up then that is not a long job. 1st fix plumbing in speedy fit, lay flat 15mm pipe, some talons, should be bread and butter to a pro plumber
Arrange for one of your friends to be in the house and arrange to meet him at your house on Monday.
Be all pally with him and walk him into the room with your pal in.
Sit down and have a general chit chat with him and get around to how money is tight at the moment. Then explain to him that you believe that he used your materials and did a sub-standard job and he is to refund you £500 for the materials and the time you took to fix the leak. He can do a bank to bank transfer whilst he's sitting there. Be very calm the whole time. If he refuses then inform him that you'll post negative reviews on every social media platform and trade site.
He still might refuse to pay but at least you tried.
I did this with a tradesman over some internal doors he supplied and installed that I wasn't happy with. We agreed to part company and agreed a new price.
It's worth a shot IMO.
So actually your £1000 down tje road.
You paid £1980 for a £980 job.
And that is allowing 3 days work plus £230 for plumbing. Believe me £230 at screwfix buys an awful lot of plumbing.
And he will have had a £20 voucher if you spend £200 through the post last week if hes plumbfix. Plus he stole your JG fittings
I was always concerned about t&m and now have been bitten. The job was a bit fiddly as when the cast stack was removed it disturbed the concealed cistern, so the nice new ceiling needed to be cut. Plus the waste in the kitchen needed to be moved about 30cm. He went to Screwfix during the day so no going early before work
I actually have a plumbfix account as I’ve spent a lot with Screwfix in the past, so I reckon I’m pretty close on materials. I also have a 10% off on my desk at this moment.
Really gutted. Pretty much decided I won’t be using him again. I’d rather get the high street guys in spot sort the gas, even though that’s a premium rate
He went to Screwfix during the day so no going early before work
You seem to be fixated on him going to Screwfix on your time.
When was he supposed to go?
Not saying any of the rest of it's right but don't start throwing unreasonable nonsense in with genuine greviances you'll only give him leverage to throw you off the scent
Depends where Screwfix is in relation to your home. I had a guy doing some work for me when I was doing up current house , who passed Screwfix on the way to mine. So I said to him , go to Screwfix on the way in , but do that at 8am when you are meant to be at mine. I don’t expect anyone to “work” on their own time. I was 20 mins from Screwfix so if he was to go during the day then it would be a 1 hour round trip ( minimum) as opposed to starting at the house 30 mins later in the morning.
Constant bone of contention this. As if customers think you spend your weekends at Screwfix so can just pick up their stuff whilst you're there...
Missing the point, him visiting Screwfix is not the main issue, although disappearing for 2hrs twice might explain why the job took 4 days. He overcharged on materials (and I know it’s from Screwfix as he told me) and he also used my gear up and then has claimed he didn’t and I can prove he has used it. And I was an idiot in paying it because I feel like I’m over a barrel and now I’m regretting it
Screwfix are a couple of miles away, there are 3 of them close by, they also offer next day delivery, and I think they may even offer 1hr delivery slots. It’s pretty easy to get stuff delivered to site for free. I place and order most weeks at the moment hence why I have a trade account as well. They offered it due to spend levels, didn’t have to blag it or pretend I was trade. I don’t expect trade to be attending Screwfix at the weekend, that’s a silly statement.
No I'm missing nothing - I'm advising you not to fixate on the non issues he will use it against you to errode the main issues.
Your heading quickly down a " well if you know so much about it do it your self " and he leaves path.
Wasn't aimed at you OP. Just a general observation.
On a related note, working for younger people can be a nightmare. They're inevitably wannabe project managers cos they've watched Grand Designs and they know best. They've watched some guy ion Youtube in the US paint houses with a drone or something and wonder why you're not doing it that way if you claim to be professional. On the other side of the coin, I always used to work on my own cars. When work got busier I decided it was time to start using a garage. I thought I was just being friendly by explaining that I would normally have done a certain job myself, but could tell that I'd immediately gotten their backs up from the start. Relations never seemed to improve after that as I could tell they thought me a 'know it all'. Found a new garage and kept my gob shut and things are going well...
Screwfix sprint is the delivery service, and yes its 1hr time slots. But they wont drop 3m soil pipe, so he was driving for 10mins, spemding 15 inside sf, tben 10mins back to yours and having a nice sleep for an hr somewhere en route.
probably. ah well. knew at the time o should have insisted on receipts. expensive lesson learnt. isn't it a shame you basically can't be trusting of people these days. I had to dig my kit out of the loft to fix the leak so no reason I can't just crack on myself.
oh and I didn't cost clips or screws. you can buy alot of clips and screws for £500
Constant bone of contention this. As if customers think you spend your weekends at Screwfix so can just pick up their stuff whilst you’re there…
I'd assume it was priced into the job rate unless told otherwise.
Sit down and have a general chit chat with him and get around to how money is tight at the moment. Then explain to him that you believe that he used your materials and did a sub-standard job and he is to refund you £500 for the materials and the time you took to fix the leak. He can do a bank to bank transfer whilst he’s sitting there. Be very calm the whole time. If he refuses then inform him that you’ll post negative reviews on every social media platform and trade site.
He still might refuse to pay but at least you made yourself look like a ****.
FTFY
If you're going to confront him, be straight. Tell him what it looks like to you, and ask him if he's going to do anything about it. Then tell him to piss off.
[Ooh - swear filter! **** = Tuesdays, Wednesdays And Thursdays]
If he has intentionally ripped you off I find it hard to believe that it's an isolated incident. That being the case and all the tradesmen already knew each other as you say, I find it equally hard to believe that they're all blissfully unaware of the plumber's modus operandi.
Tell him "good news, that kit you lost, I found it!" If a direct approach doesn't work I'd be sorely tempted to kick the lot of them off site and tell them exactly why, see if peer pressure has any sway. (I almost certainly wouldn't, but I'd want to.)
He's only got 5 years to finish it. Kicking the contractors off site could seriously jeopardise that ,!
“I can see why you advocated Hep stuff my good man. I spotted water spilling out of that corner. Wouldn’t you know, it was piped and joined with JG! I’m so looking forward to you replacing it with the good kit you bought. Please leave me what’s left. I’m so glad the JG stuff disappeared.‘?
Edit. Though it would be better to genuinely inquire and then provide direct and unambiguous feedback. Follow that with a specific and direct request for what you want to happen.
You’re not laying a new patio soon are you?
@unfitgeezer is the correct answer. Show him the door, and get another plumber.
Don't bother with any of the trap setting and smart Alice stuff.
Just state what you know (without stating an opinion) and ask him if there is an explanation.
You seem to be fixated on him going to Screwfix on your time.
When was he supposed to go?
IDK, not used T&M before but was thinking of it for a job I might have doing in the new year, so a question.
Sounds like this isn't T&M, but T&(M+20%) if he's upping the cost of the materials by 20% (ignore whether he's nicking the materials actually for now)
That feels to me like the 20% is to cover the inconvenience of going to get them, the petrol, and so on. While he's doing that he isn't doing your job and yet you're also paying an hourly rate (or part of his day rate) for him to do that. You're paying him twice for that activity, no?
I wouldn't object to an hour's labour working out what you need and ordering it all for delivery at the start, maybe even that 20% upcharge is to cover the fact he might spend an hour a couple of evenings before doing that. But I'll be damned if it covers daily 2 hour trips to eat bacon rolls at the tea van while he goes for bits and pieces. Get organised, you're supposed to be a pro.
And yep, there may be a hidden workaround needed at some point and you might need to allow for him to go and get a bit to sort it.....but if he wasn't ripping you off over the obvious stuff like 5m of pipe that he could have ordered from his chair while watching bake off the day before then you wouldn't object to that emergency run.
As you’ve discovered T&M can be a headache but real problem is he’s billed for materials that don’t exist. If you haven’t paid for the additional work wait until it’s payment day and get him to show you the materials in situ and go from there.
I avoid T&M like the plague and agree a set cost instead. Simpler all round and avoids any issues with the eating of bacon rolls on someone else’s time.
Semi ex plasterer here,folk like that get us all a bad reputation and they usually have a brass neck. Keep the discussion short but don’t expect to get anywhere with him, if he does pay it is a bonus but as stated; small contract tradesmen are mental busy just now. With the trades being so busy even a bad review might not give him a dent, however we do all recommend other trades so making sure the other subs know will make them wary of him at least.
I avoid T&M like the plague and agree a set cost instead.
Depends, I had an extension built at set cost, handed the drawings and everything over and encountered no end of bullshit.
Oh that was priced for basic materials, those are extra
That wasn't on the drawing
Well the plumber had to come out again because you showed him the wrong Toby valve so that's going to cost you (burst into a common main without checking the water was actually off first, Scottish water gave me their best guess and I told them as much).
100mm flexi tumble dryer duct for cooker hood extraction.
Etc etc.
Ended up with a shit job that I hate with every fibre of my being. I'd have done the first fit better myself, at least it would be wind tight.
So OP, no Scooby Doo reveal bullshit, get your invoice off him then tell him what's what and that you can either get a refund or you'll gladly pay the 40 quid to see him at small claims court. Then kick him off.
As for plumbing in water softeners or whatever, the commissioning instructions will be in the paperwork, I appreciate not everyone is practical but it's really not that hard, you don't even have to worry about gas.
Shame you paid him and you should have had him back to fix the leak.
I can see 2 options: try and get him back to fit the pipes he said he did or just forget it.
Definitely tell the other workers and leave shite reviews everywhere.
Actually I agree with squirrel king
Sounds like this isn’t T&M, but T&(M+20%) if he’s upping the cost of the materials by 20% (ignore whether he’s nicking the materials actually for now)
I think what others are trying to get at is the opposite.
It's normal to use your purchasing power to negotiate a discount from a supplier and bill a customer at approaching RRP, that's just good business sense whether you're a plumber or selling soft furnishings. Playing devil's advocate, that cost also covers the value-added from the trade's expertise in choosing the correct components. I imagine that rocking up to a job to be met with a customer insisting that you use the materials they've procured and then them handing a builder the equivalent of a bucket of Duplo isn't uncommon.
But.
This guy has been provided materials by the customer, claims to have 'lost' them, used them in the job anyway, then billed for a load of materials that were never used. That's not a cheeky little markup for the convenience, it's outright fraud.
While you're still on good terms, and he is hopefully unaware that you know what's he done, ask for a detailed invoice for your records with a breakdown of labour/materials. With that in hand, you can have a straightforward discussion about him ripping you off, and more chance of a small claims success when he fobs you off.
I wouldn't be letting him within a mile of the rest of the job, he's dishonest and incompetent.
