[Closed] Oops! Someone best phone social services....

wwaswas, my last post was trying to point out that I appreciate that there are many examples of unfairness in the world and that we should be conscious of all of them. I believe that veganism is a bloody good start on the way to living a fairer lifestyle. I also think that you are overestimating the amount of meat for sale that is grass fed. It is hard to find the UK statistics but certainly in the US, the overwhelming percentage of cows are fed grains and soya, making meat production terribly inefficient. However, if all of your meat comes from cows reared on land where crops can't be grown, I accept your point on a purely efficiency basis. I very much doubt that this is the case though.

Wow ninfan, a very aggressive response to what was effectively me saying that it's heartbreaking to see goats on their way to slaughter.

Funny, I quite regularly see people shooting pigeons & rabbits to protect cereal, pea and brassica crops, lovely extensively reared clean, green and nuclear free meat, murdered in the name of protecting vegetables!

and thats before we touch on the wholesale slaughter of rodents in the food chain. Or the ecological disaster of pesticides that has wiped out the food sources for many of our native birds - and thats in the UK where our laws are strict, imagine what its like in the south american banana fields!

But surely this kind of thing happens when producing plants for livestock to eat? And wasn't there a recent badger cull in the name of protecting livestock? All of my posts have tried to emphasise the difficulties of living a totally fair lifestyle. Also, are you trying to say that only vegans eat bananas?

Don't get your point ninfan. 70% of cereals are grown to be fed to livestock. If more people were vegan, surely you'd have to shoot fewer pigeons (and people shoot pigeons to protect cereals.... yeah right :roll:)

I may be in a minority here but I would be a bit narked if someone ignored my views when looking after my child. We are fairly easy going but wouldn't be pleased if for example, someone let my children watch an age inappropriate film.

Yes please, Bikebouy. Halãl, Kosher, whatever you've got, very well done with lots of ketchup.

Christ! 24 hours later and we're still doing this! Might bugger off back to the wilderness for another couple of years! Anyone done any good riding lately?

Right. I think I've really nailed this time.

What if you took kids who's parents insisted, based on deep cultural grounds and a firm and sincere moral belief, that their children be physically punished on the spot, by the person who they are in the immediate care of should they commit 'offence A' and then they commit 'offence A' when you're out of phone signal and they've just boarded a plane to antarctica?

Do pay attention Edukator. They're all eating caterpillars now.

Binners is our official meat missionary. Bloody great work.
Parents who indoctrinate their children into vegetarianism etc.
are not rights. You did well. I bet your quarter pounder went down
even better than usual knowing you had spread the normal, varied diet
thang to that poor girl.

She's gone a bit hyper!

You really would have basked in the light of my utmost admiration if
you'd have managed to get her to drop a diazepam to calm her down after
her protein/sugar/fat/carb' fest 😉

I don't believe a vegi (more so vegan) diet is healthy for a growing child and its made worse if the mother is one during pregnancy. I can't imagine my kids having to eat all the extra bits and bobs they would need in a diet lacking meat (certainly couldn't afford it either or the extra TP lol ).

I tried to think of a reasoned argument, using some JY style bullet points but I'm just going to have to say - bollocks. On all fronts, just bollocks.

brassneck, 3 kids, veggie, veggie wife no one dead yet. And certainly no baby robins.

I've seen corn grown in some horrible conditions, packed into fields with no real space, expected to stand to attention 24/7 for months on end and then having it's legs cut off whilst still alive!

I'll never have a veggie burger again.

poah - Member

.... I want my kids to grow up fit and healthy, once they are adults they are free to choose their diet, religion and sexuality

What about choosing a wheel size? ... 😆

on a more serious note don't you think it might be an idea to suggest the child broaches the subject with her parents? If she's really not happy with her diet isn't a proper discussion with her parents better than deception?*

In my case eldest has no interest in it or eating it

Youngest said he would when he was older till he was about 6
We then had a serious chat [ as serious as you can with a 6 year old - he felt as serious as you could with me to be fair] and he declined to eat it eventually but it was a very real option. He did have chats with meat eater friends to discuss it with them but decided not to.
I will be surprised if the eldest eats meat tbh and amazed if the youngest does not at least try it at some point.
Overall I would be more pissed of if they felt the need to lie to me and that another parent helped them do it.

Food eating need not be the unethical, environmental bugbear that it currently is, we just have to pay more for it to be less so

Yep. Buy free-range meat, if you can.

But surely this kind of thing happens when producing plants for livestock to eat?

Depends. If you keep cows in a shed and feed them grain, then probably. If you let sheep onto a hillside then no. Grass-fed beef, or better still organic because (presumably) the hay they eat in the winter will be produced without pesticides and consequently greater biodiversity..? Indeed, if people are traditionally producing hay to feed cows that'll do no end of good for the environment.

I tried to think of a reasoned argument, using some JY style bullet points but I'm just going to have to say - bollocks. On all fronts, just bollocks.

Maybe bolt-gun points, whilst being effectively stunned first.

I would be surprised if parents do not discuss this with their child - you think we can resist telling them why we dont eat meat

Do you know Binners?

[edit]

Truly heartbreaking to see

really?

Like a close relative dying or the end of love with someone?

Every time you see one of these lorries?

I suspect what you get is a momentary feeling of sadness and then get on with your day.

Not weeks of feelings of loss and abandonment.

wwaswas, I also don't spend weeks on end mourning the death of a person that I do not know very well, a friend of a friend or a distant relative that I haven't seen for years, for example. That does not mean that they are worth less than a member of my own family just because I have a weaker emotional bond to them. So in answer to your question, yes, heartbreaking enough that I've stopped supporting that industry. The most heartbreaking thing is that they were never given an opportunity to be an individual or to be loved by anyone. Just treated as a product to be unnecessarily killed in the name of 'taste.'

Don't get your point ninfan. 70% of cereals are grown to be fed to livestock.

Nope, that figure was shown to be bollocks years ago, and even then it was based on the US, where cattle are mainly reared in areas that are otherwise agriculturally unproductive,

If more people were vegan, surely you'd have to shoot fewer pigeons

No, we'd have to shoot more, as there would be less land under pasture or crop, so more scrub and woodland for the pigeons to breed and live in, hence more pigeons.

(and people shoot pigeons to protect cereals.... yeah right :roll:)

Ah, proof of the townie talking out of their fundament - you've never cut open a pigeon's crop I take it? Plus I carefully pointed out that I was not just talking cereals but pea and brassica crops, and rabbit damage.

Pigeons eat grain, but how much grain is lost to pigeons? And how much time do farmers spend camped out with a shotgun fending off pigeons? Given the unprofitability of grain in the first place, I suspect not much.

wwaswas, I also don't spend weeks on end mourning the death of a person that I do not know very well, a friend of a friend or a distant relative that I haven't seen for years, for example. That does not mean that they are worth less than a member of my own family just because I have a weaker emotional bond to them. So in answer to your question, yes, heartbreaking enough that I've stopped supporting that industry. The most heartbreaking thing is that they were never given an opportunity to be an individual or to be loved by anyone. Just treated as a product to be unnecessarily killed in the name of 'taste.'

"Look at this jungle. Look at those vines, the way they twine around, swallowing everything. Nature's cruel, Staros." - The Thin Red Line.

and

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02436507

[i] I also don't spend weeks on end mourning the death of a person that I do not know very well[/i]

nobody does, hence my querying your choice of emotion.

[i]they were never given an opportunity to be an individual or to be loved by anyone
[/i]

Is this goats we're talking about?

Do goats *need* love? Can they express it?

I'm not criticising your choice not to eat meat. Equally, I've never worried that the cow I'm eating never had a chance to find love in it's life.

I'm not criticising your choice not to eat meat. Equally, I've never worried that the cow I'm eating never had a chance to find love in it's life.

Hah.

I can't be bothered to read all the inevitable arguing...but if my kids were being looked after by another parent I would expect them to eat what they were given.

If I had specific food requirements (like vegan stuff) then I should provide a packed lunch, unless I had an agreement that they would go to a particular type of restaurant (in which case I would expect to pay for it).

I wouldn't expect another parent to take their children to a vegan restaurant just because my child cannot eat anything else.

Ohohoh

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10702160

I went to an Argentinian steak restaurant the other day and had a £30 sirloin steak....

It tasted delicious.

I also don't feel bad about it.

Pigeons eat grain, but how much grain is lost to pigeons?

Records show up to 200grammes per bird in a day (though they would not take this amount every day) - one study reckoned between 3 and 6% of total wheat crops were lost to birds

And how much time do farmers spend camped out with a shotgun fending off pigeons?

Very little, generally provided by shooters as a free service to the farmer in return for the sport - the pigeons sold into the food chain normally cover their costs.

Clean, green, nuclear free, extensively reared and tasty meat - what could be better?

I also don't feel bad about it.

Well, you should.

Maybe.

Or maybe not.

This thread is becoming less clear about what dietary choice is the right one.

Donk hard to say what what age is appropriate I guess it depends on the kid but yes it is al conjecture and I doubt the master of ceremonies will [s]make up [/s] provide the answer anytime soon

Do you know Binners?

Mc hamish you are repeating the same arguments and the same tired old jokes [ they were not original before this thread never mind 13 pages in with many examples ]

if my kids were being looked after by another parent I would expect them to eat what they were given.

I went to an Argentinian steak restaurant the other day and had a £30 sirloin steak....

It tasted delicious.

I also don't feel bad about it.

You should feel bad. Argentinian? Have you forgotten about the Falkland Islands?

[i]Have you forgotten about the Falkland Islands? [/i]

It's all deep fried penguin in Falkland Islands restaurants.

Ah, proof of the townie talking out of their fundament - you've never cut open a pigeon's crop I take it? Plus I carefully pointed out that I was not just talking cereals but pea and brassica crops, and rabbit damage.

Err, everyone I know in that there countryside what I lives in shoots pigeons for fun as far as I can tell rather than protect anything. That's certainly what they tell me anyway, not 'he were worryin' my crops'.

Sorry JY, I appreciate I'm letting the side down. 25+ years of the same old shite have made me grow weary. And 13 pages were just the feather (picked from a hedgeside folks, nothing to see here) cap on it.

Are the Falkland Islands the Newcastle of the South Atlantic now?

Blimey someone's tired....

You should feel bad. Argentinian? Have you forgotten about the Falkland Islands?

It's ok, I didn't tip

Can we let Shibboleth back in just to get threads like this shut down so we can all move on? He could be "rebanned" immeadiately afterward. 🙂

*Plays Junkyard's game*

[i]you are repeating the same arguments and the same tired old jokes[/i]
+
[i]Awesome stella and whiskey chasers all round[/i]

Hmmm..?

Clean, green, nuclear free, extensively reared and tasty meat

You forgot corn-fed.

They can't shoot much pigeon though because it's hardly flooding the supermarkets, surely?

Awesome stella and whiskey chasers all round

I think you must realise this is quite a poor argument.

Difficult to argue with any of this really:

If I had specific food requirements (like vegan stuff) then I should provide a packed lunch, unless I had an agreement that they would go to a particular type of restaurant (in which case I would expect to pay for it).

I wouldn't expect another parent to take their children to a vegan restaurant just because my child cannot eat anything else.

I still think covering it up is out of order though.

[img] [/img]

Oh has this already been said? I haven't read the thread. 🙂

let's hope binners doesn't take the kid camping...

[img] [/img]

Late to this but have read through most of the arguments and can't help having sympathy with both sides.

Personally I managed to bring up kids without exposing them to the Golden Arches and the three eldest still avoid it to this day, the fourth however would be all over binners like a bad rash, so my choice is wether I'm happy to enforce my beliefs by making her not hang out with her friend who happens to have a parent with a less than enlightened attitude to food and kids.

I wouldn't however lose that much sleep over it, with kids you can but show them a way, if they follow all well and good if they choose not to, then san ferry anne, you did your best.

Funny last night a good mate was teaching his kid to be a fish murderer, and the little b'stard was pulling out Rudd by the dozen, we engaged in some friendly banter, I pointed out to the kid those little fish were some big fish's children and how would he liked being dragged up into the sky by a space alien with a hook in his mouth and through the jest you could see he was thinking about it, - then went back to catch another dozen. The point is, they've got their own minds, you have to accept that and guide rather than force with your own values...

is there a highlights show on BBC2 at 10 o'clock?

I still think covering it up is out of order though.

He's not though, is he? Did they ask him and did he lie? I doubt it.

The girl is the one who has to decide if she tells them or not.

Indeed. Does that fall under freedom of choice? Hmmmmmmmm. None of the right-ons seem too hot on that particular concept

Anyway.... It's fair trade, corn-fed humous, and ethically sourced organic, soil association approved broccoli for tea, while we settle down for a documentary about murdering cattle. That'll learn us all! 😀