[Closed] ooh! New coffee and patisserie shop on the high street!!! Disappointment content

Could be after the Yummy Mummy market. Watch with interest....

Yeah there's been two (consecutivley) along the road from work both with the same 9am open policy. Given that there are a lot of office workers and already two coffee shops that open at 7am. They didn't last long.

We used to be the workshop of the world, now it seems the only growth industry is coffee shops.

That is my biggest problem with coffee shops - indies are the worst where I live but the big chains are only a little better, with a couple of exceptions.

Why tf would you open after everyone's gone to work and close before they get home?

We used to be the workshop of the world, now it seems the only growth industry is coffee shops.

Is this bad?

Should be doing loads of menial work, or should we be in a position to have enough spare time and cash to spend our time lounging around in coffee shops? I know what I'd rather do! 🙂

Why tf would you open after everyone's gone to work and close before they get home?

Maybe because they make enough money during this time and don't want to work anti-social hours?

Patisserie? Pfft!

[img] [/img]

Don't get me started on 'effing Greggs!... The b'stards seem to think they have a right to monopolise the public pavement as well...

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Could be after the Yummy Mummy market. Watch with interest....

Should be doing loads of menial work, or should we be in a position to have enough spare time and cash to spend our time lounging around in coffee shops?

"There are 3 ways of creating growth. Grow it, dig it out the ground or add value to it (ie manufacturing). Anything else (service sector) is just moving it (money) around)"

Ok so there are flaws in this quote, but I do think we ought to be rebalancing the economy from the service dominated one we currently have.

Maybe because they make enough money during this time and don't want to work anti-social hours?

Possibility but given the passing trade pre 0900 I think I'd rethink my strategy and open 0800 - 1600 if I was determined to stick to an 8 hour day.

That is my biggest problem with coffee shops

This is my biggest problem with all shops.

The business model is broken but instead of offering a service people want they are moaning about it.

In a market where a huge proportion of the customers work and shops can no longer rely on housewives doing the shopping while the husband work, in a world where the internet is open 24hrs and so are the supermarkets, its not sustainable to only open 9-5, Mon to Sat.

I was in Thailand last week and the difference is obvious, shops open from early for people to buy breakfast on the way to work, shops open into the evening for people to shop after work. Growing economy.

Shopkeeping is now a job that requires antisocial hours and shopkeepers need to realise this meet the markets requirments.

My LBS has started closing earlier in the evenings and not opening Sundays becuase the staff complained about long hours, I haven't been in since the change, not out of spite but because they are never open when I can go.

Anything else (service sector) is just moving it (money) around)

The retail sector adds value to goods by moving them around and making them available to buy where they need them.

Similar to manufacturing really.

Anything else (service sector) is just moving it (money) around)

It's all just moving it around. Manufacturing is adding value by taking a raw material, adding your knowledge and skill to it, and selling it on.

There's no difference between paying someone to make an iPhone for me and paying someone to make a website for me or design a house. I can't see that the phsyical presence of an object makes any difference. After all, an iPhone is just a few quid's worth of plastic and semiconductor isn't it? The actual material is fairly worthless.

I've never understood this with small shops generally. If you go to Europe, people can do their shopping on the way home (OK there are a few exceptions) but over it seems dry cleaners, small food shops, hardware shops etc etc all do the 9-5 thing. Surely a couple of days a week they could try opening something like 8 - 11 then 2-7 or some variant. I have never ever understood 9-5 opening when most people work longer than that.

This is my biggest problem with all shops.

And GP surgeries. It's another service industry, yet you have to take time out from your job to go.

Italian retail (in the provinces anyway) has it right - open early in the morning, shut for a few hours in the afternoon, open late each evening.

tamper sheffield.

now opening early morning and sundays for brunch.

starbucks round the corner just had to close due (i've heard) to business loss to tamper.

staggeringly good coffee. (try the flat white) lovely, interested and keen staff.

if you're in sheff. head there.

*i don't work there or owt. just when something good pops up, i think people should support it!

MK has taken a bit of stick on the tell me about MK thread, but the shopping centre do have one thing right. Open all year round 10am-8pm. OK you can't go in before work, but plenty of opportunity after work.

And GP surgeries

But if you are ill then you can't work 😕

*[i]I realise GPs do all sorts of planned things for perfectly well people. I'm being deliberately facetious, but in reality I'd estimate 95% of GPs patients aren't in full time work[/i]

in reality I'd estimate 95% of GPs patients aren't in full time work

95% eh? What an interesting assertion - care to tell me what you've based your estimate on, in reality?

Nine to Five!

herein lies the story of the death of the British high street and why independent retailers have lost out to supermarkets.

But don't forget the predatory pricing of the supermarkets and their economies of scale as well...

With coffee shops and GP's add bike shops. I pass 3 on may way home from work, and another on my usual evening ride. none are open. If need something at that time I have to go to Halfords.

95% eh? What an interesting assertion - care to tell me what you've based your estimate on, in reality?

Groups of people who visit the doctor in decending order

Elderly
Long term sick
Unemployed
Children
Normally healthy women
Normally heathly men

Anecdotally I just drew the line of people who would be inconvienced by 9-5 hours at 95%. And in reality most GPs are open 8.30 to 6 at least so plenty of availability for the tiny proportion of people who are currently healthy but need a scheduled appointment.

Granted GPs could do better with being open at weekend and late nights but in reality their main issue isn't opening hours but a method for assigning the available appointments based on need rather than first come first served.

But don't forget the predatory pricing of the supermarkets and their economies of scale as well...

Supermarkets are generally not significantly cheaper than independants for the same thing. But independants have swung to the higher end to try to maintain profiability, rather than offering what people actually want at a time they can get it.

Supermarkets biggest selling point is convienience.

Seem crazy that a huge box you have to drive to can be consided convienient but when you consider that local shops may charge for parking or have none available, only open 9 to 5, have a smaller range etc and it starts to make sense. But local shops can fix this if only they were willing to.

That is my biggest problem with coffee shops

And barbers! Only open during the day then for about 3 hours on a Saturday morning with really long queues. I reckon they could make more money for working less hours if they opened at sensible times.

I'm down in that London at the moment and I noticed this morning that loads of shops open at 8 for people to buy stuff. It makes perfect sense when most of your workforce are in offices from 9 to whenever.

What gets me is shops that close for lunch, just at the time when office workers would be going for their lunch as well. Why don't people in shops like these take their lunch before 12 or after 2?!?

[i]And barbers! Only open during the day then for about 3 hours on a Saturday morning[/i]

Mine is open from 9 til 8 Tuesday to Friday, and 8 til 3 on a Saturday. And he gives you beer. 😀

As the owner of a service industry busisness, you are quite right that we have issues in the Uk with our opening hours being 9-5.

But sadly one of the things making that worse is the dificulty getting staff to work the less sociable hours, and exisitng staff having the right to request flexible or adapted hours of work to suit family commitments. Whilst people only have the right to [i]request[/i] changes, it becomes a very dificult request to decline and not leave oneself open to a potential claim for constructive dismissal.
Talk to any small business owner and they will tell you how much of aproblem this is. We have had to reduce the hours of our availablity to clients purely because of this in the last few years. It is a very diicult situation to manage indeed and causes alot of dificulties and stress.
Plans by Mr Clegg et al announced yesterday aim to extend this right to ALL employees in the near future, not just parents, if they get their way. Thats lovely, but soon we'll all only be working 9 - 5, beacuse who wouldn't. Not sustainable sadly.

95% eh? What an interesting assertion - care to tell me what you've based your estimate on, in reality?

Groups of people who visit the doctor in decending order

Elderly
Long term sick
Unemployed
Children
Normally healthy women
Normally heathly men

[b]Anecdotally I just drew the line of people who would be inconvienced by 9-5 hours at 95%.[/b]

Ah, you made it up. That's what I thought.

Groups of people who visit the doctor in decending order

Elderly
Long term sick
Unemployed
Children
Normally healthy women
Normally heathly men

Children go to the doctor's by themselves, do they?

[i]95% eh? What an interesting assertion - care to tell me what you've based your estimate on, in reality?

[/i]

That low you reckon?

But sadly one of the things making that worse is the dificulty getting staff to work the less sociable hours, and exisitng staff having the right to request flexible or adapted hours of work to suit family commitments.

I find it hard to believe that similar rights don't exist in other European countries, so how do they manage it?

as regards staffign unsociable hours we now have huge problems in the UK. ANyone on here responsible for planning/staffing a hospital? They'll likely tell you how much dificulty they are having these days since all teh staff started asking for family friendly hours.

What when this extends to other sectors,to the Police. Or the fire brigade? "Hello, you have reached the Singletrackworldshire Fire and Rescue service....the station is now closed. Normal opening hours are 9am to 5pm monday to friday. Outside these hours please leave a mesage and we'll get back to you once we re-open."

Ransos, it's a culture thing, if youve always worked until 9pm it is not unreasonable, if you never have and suddenly you're being asked then it is.

Ransos, it's a culture thing, if youve always worked until 9pm it is not unreasonable, if you never have and suddenly you're being asked then it is.

I understand that, but (IIRC) if you can demonstrate a genuine business need for particular hours/ days, then you don't have a problem in law for refusing a request.

My wife's from Brazil.

After 3 years in the uk she's still not got used to most places closing at 5 or 6 in the evening, and not being open at 7am.

She thinks the British are just lazy 😀

Last time I was in Brazil, most shops were open from 7/7:30 through to 7/8pm. Many places will let you in to shop despite having just closed.

I suspect their customer service motto is not "What can I do for you? Not much I hope!", like it is in this country.

😀

I find it hard to believe that similar rights don't exist in other European countries, so how do they manage it?

I'm sure that they are finding it increasingly dificult too. Plus many EU countries take a much more relaxed approach to regulation.
Plus they Europe they too rely to a very large degree on young keen labour from EU accession countries to fll these gaps. Trouble is its a one way street. Once staff have children who a little older they rarely want to go back to earlier or later starts.
And I can't say that I blame them really. But it is storing up big problems for our national albour force verstility in the long term.

Don't get me wrong, I do firmly believe that the family unit should indeed be the focus of much of our planning at the moment. It just isn't being done in a joined up manner at the moment.

The option for Dads to take the womens share of the parental leave postnatally is a step forward though.

I understand that, but (IIRC) if you can demonstrate a genuine business need for particular hours/ days, then you don't have a problem in law for refusing a request.

You are absolutely right. But the only real, and final, arbiter to this question of "genuine" is an employment tribunal. Should you need to go this far conservative estimate of costs to succesfully defend, ie that is if you winand are proved justified in your decision, is £5-10k. Heaven help you if you are not found ot be justified. I had to take advice on this a few years agoas a situation was developing, and it was truly horrifying.

Our local coffee shop opens 8:30 to late (they have a license) and captures pre-work traffic very well indeed. Their coffee is very good and they have a temptingly good selection of cakes, but their one problem is not opening on Sundays or Mondays. I've asked why and it is because they simply cannot get the staff for it.

The one thing I crave, CRAVE I TELL YE, is a double shot cappuccino on a Monday before work. And I can't have one from my favourite shop.

First world problem I know.

The rest of the week they are open and my life is complete.

You are absolutely right. But the only real, and final, arbiter to this question of "genuine" is an employment tribunal. Should you need to go this far conservative estimate of costs to succesfully defend, ie that is if you winand are proved justified in your decision, is £5-10k.

I'm quite sure you're right, but the chances of an employee taking you to a tribunal they're unlikely to win I would guess is very low. Your costs are more likely to be bound up in the time it takes to justify a reason for refusal.

I've been on the other side of this recently. My wife was refused a change in her hours, and the reasons given were spurious at best. Even so, my sister (an HR officer) told us to avoid a tribunal at all costs.

Ah, you made it up. That's what I thought.

Not really made up; made an educated estimate based on the available information. Care to provide some reasoning that would suggest I am wrong? Thought not.

Children go to the doctor's by themselves, do they?

No but if they are ill then you are off work becuase your children are ill, not because you need to go to the GP. Also the majority of people with children will have at least one parent who doesn't work 9-5, Monday to Friday so they contribute to the 95%, not the 5%.

But local shops can fix this if only they were willing to.

*how confusing is it going to be having 7-11 14-19 hours of opening (and variations of) for your customers, we aint in a hot country we don't have a nationally recognised siesta time. Plus lunchtime should be quite an earner for most shops so what you gonna do? 3 shifts something like 7-9, 11:30-13:30, 16-19?

No but if they are ill then you are off work becuase your children are ill

But whoever said mentioned outside 9-5 appointments for workers was bang on. pensioners, long term sick, unemployed surely should be kept well inside 10:00-15:00 appointment time frame (unless I've missed something glaringly obvious)

No but if they are ill then you are off work becuase your children are ill, not because you need to go to the GP. Also the majority of people with children will have at least one parent who doesn't work 9-5, Monday to Friday so they contribute to the 95%, not the 5%.

1. Prescriptions, vaccinations & routine scheduled appointments could be done before work & school. I have to leave work early just so I can get a repeat prescription for my daughter!

2. Have you thought why it is that both parents don't usually work full time?

In the US most shops are open til 9 or 10. However this is linked to a profoundly different labour market.

The shops are open for so long you can't just have normal daytime hours staff. So people work whatever hours that fit in to their lifestyle. This means that you CAN work evenings after going to university or after your partner gets home or somtehing. So people do. That means that people on the whole can work more hours, which then allows employers to pay less per hour and the staff can still survive. It also means that because you can work after going to university lectures, this is an accepted funding model for your course, so it becomes the norm to do 30 odd hours a week studying and 30 odd hours working or whatever.

So the young and the poor end up working like slaves. My wife used to work two jobs - I can't imagine it. I don't think I would have survived if I'd grown up there to be honest!

I was in Thailand last week and the difference is obvious, shops open from early for people to buy breakfast on the way to work, shops open into the evening for people to shop after work. Growing economy.

Spanish shops are open 'til late, too. Growing economy, just growing downawards 😕

There's a nice butcher on my high street. I occasionally pop in but he closes at 5 so normally I go to sainsbury's which is open till 9. Ditto the grocer and baker. I go to the barber that has a late night and stays open till 6 as I can just about get there before he shuts without having to give up my saturday and queue.

Newcastle has started running year round shopping until 8pm (it used to just be in the run up to christmas).

I think we should bring royal mail into this too. We got a letter months back appologising that they were going to be unable to deliver our mail in the morning and that it would now be coming in the afternoon as they have changed their routes. They still don't seemed to have twigged that it makes no difference. I'm not in between 7:30 and 5:30 so whenever they deliver between those times is unhelpful.

Granted GPs could do better with being open at weekend and late nights but in reality their main issue isn't opening hours but a method for assigning the available appointments based on need rather than first come first served.

Are you sure you want receptionists taking on triage duties? Or do you want GPs to take up receptionist duties?

See if I was a GP I'd not be too happy at having to work late or start early just so that people could see me outside of their working hours. If you have a problem that is serious enough for you to see a GP about then it is more important that your work....

There is a system in place to allow people who NEED it to access medical care 24hrs a day 7 days a week - it's called A&E.

If you have a problem that is serious enough for you to see a GP about then it is more important that your work

Are you sure you want receptionists taking on triage duties?

or

do you work?
yes
ok howabout 5:30?

Like I said there could be perfectly good reasons for a none worker requiring an appointment outside of 10-3 but I'm having trouble spotting many at the moment.

Our local GP started doing early surgeries to enable people to see the doctor and still get to work. You couldn't make an appointment, you just turned up when they opened at 6.30 onwards

I went down one morning. Couldn't get through the door as it was chock full of.... you guessed it.... pensioners 🙄

What gets me is shops that close for lunch, just at the time when office workers would be going for their lunch as well. Why don't people in shops like these take their lunch before 12 or after 2?!?

you would love it in Germany then.... altough to be fair many smaller shops are open till 7 in the evening. the banks are the best at this though. open at 9:30, closed between 12-1:30 for lunch, shut at 5.

Just discovered that if you put about half an inch of hot water into a cup with an artificial sweetener and a spoonful of Nescafe bog standard instant, it tastes like hot Galloway's cough mixture.

Yum.

If you have a problem that is serious enough for you to see a GP about then it is more important that your work....

My last three visits to the GP:

Tetanus booster
Various vaccinations for going travelling
Collecting a prescription for my daughter.

see repeat prescriptions

Personally for repeat prescriptions I go onto the GP surgery website, stick in what I want, how many and the dose then go and pick them up a couple of days later from the pharmacist. Other people post their slip in the repeat prescriptions letter box and do it that way.

Ransoms, I have 6 staff, most of them have been with me for more than ten years which in my profession Is not so common at all. We have on three occasions made adjustments, shift and opening hours changes to accomadate quite reasonable requests. It took a lot of work, and required compromises from other members of staff too. On the most recent fourth occasion, this member of staff took a less reasonable approach, and felt that as the others had been accommodated then why should she not. She
steadfastly refused to see that the changes that had already been made had removed almost any manoeuvring room w head left. We did make three different offers to her, after much more compromise from other staff members again. Sadly she offered no compromise herself throughout the whiole process. The right is only to be able to ask without prejudice, and that reasonable efforts are made to assess what can be done. There is a responsibility within the regulations upon the employee to suggest ways in which their changed hours might be covered, sadly no effort was made by the young lady in this case. Eventually she did reduce her hours, and has maintained her longstanding unhelpful stance. There is no doubt that she cannot understand and appreciate the lengths that we, her employer and her co- workers , have gone to to accommodate her. Sadly she is one of the new breed of me me me employees.
The amount of time spent on this cannot be underestimated, and the knock on effects of rostering staff in ever more complicated patterns is difficult to appreciate unless you have actually had to try to manage it.
If we were a simple trade that could get in an unskilled worker at short motice to at least fill agap we would be able to manage fine. As it is we cannot. I currently feel like selling the business to a corporate chain as a colleague has done near me this month, and retire for a few months then go back as an employee myself. Being an employer in a small business these days is becoming ever more challenging. And this is coming from someone who generally has the most excellent staff with whom I have developed a very strong long term relationship over many years in a close knit team., With whom I have been privildged to work. Sadly I know for a fact that the first people to suffer would be the staff I would leave behind. Corporates in our field are no friends of their staff.

Sorry for the slight hi jack of this thread

And as for how do european countries manage this........ I point you in the direction of the recent eurozone economic forecast. I.e. they don't.

Ironic given the threads origins, but when we are trying to improve conditions for our workforce, we also need to be realistic and competitive: we need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Parked up on my way to work and strode with a certain amount of anticipation. Went to open the door and... closed. Opening hours 9 to 5.

Obviously a lifestyle/hobby business for the owner (Who is probably a yummy mummy herself).

A coffee shop that doesn't open until 9am - I can't see it succeeding long term with those hours. It is probably closed at weekends as well?

IMO times can't be as bad as they are made out if people can still pay ridiculous amounts for coffee. Have they never heard of Thermos flasks?

Our small town has several successful coffee shops that only really open 9-5. Lots of parents, lots of older people, plus people who work locally means they seem to be usually quite busy. Depends a lot on whether they get passing commuter trade whether early opening is going to be worth it I guess - I mean how many people really pop into town for a coffee before work or after work?

Oh, and I work part time, work from home, shift hours around etc - I think that whilst part time working is difficult in some fields, in a lot of places I've worked, allowing part time, flexible hours and teleworking would have been a piece of piss. And particularly in my industry (software development), companies offering flexibility, working from home and stuff like that seem to attract way way higher quality developers without paying any more money. People really underestimate how many really talented people are out there who don't necessarily want to be tied down to a 9-5 plus commute and don't need oversight of their work every ten minutes.

Is this an STW moaning thread??

Ohhh me, me, me..

Bike shops... 0900-1730

Phah,

No wonder Halfords do so well near me.

I mean how many people really pop into town for a coffee before work or after work?

Loads, in Cardiff. Town in the morning is full of people walking to work from the bus or train stations. The Starbuckeses are all open and doing a brisk trade too 🙂

Town in the morning is full of people walking to work from the bus or train stations. The Starbuckeses are all open and doing a brisk trade too

That's what I said - passing commuter trade.

How many people specifically pop into town for a coffee, when that isn't on their way to work? If you're a coffee place and you're not on a lot of people's way to work, how worth it is it to open early and late? I'd guess not very.

1. Prescriptions, vaccinations & routine scheduled appointments could be done before work & school. I have to leave work early just so I can get a repeat prescription for my daughter!

Which is a tiny proportion of GPs work. And GPs are open before and after school already. The issue is the appointments at the right time are full of old people.

2. Have you thought why it is that both parents don't usually work full time?

Yes, being a parent it's something I have though about! The main reasons at least one parent doesn't work full time are childcare costs, there is also wanting to spend time with the children, issues with collecting from school etc. The opening hours at the doctors will only be a tiny tiny variable, and since most docs are open 8.30 to 6 as a minimum it already a non issue.

Plus where I live there is a GP run walk in centre for non A&E out of hours urgent things, and a out of hours GP service I can ring/visit.

Plus if I needed a repeart perscription I could get a pharmacy to sort it out or do it on-line.

Actually when I think about the GPs is a great example of making your service available outside of the normal 9-5 scheudle of most independant retailers, even though 95% of your customers(sic) can come between 9-5.

I must be lucky as our local medical centre is open 08:00-18:30 and my dentist is 08:00-20:00
They also take a dim view of pensioners trying to use the service at either end of the day.

Which is a tiny proportion of GPs work. And GPs are open before and after school already. The issue is the appointments at the right time are full of old people.

And you know this how? BTW open at 8.30 isn't "open before school".

Yes, being a parent it's something I have though about! The main reasons at least one parent doesn't work full time are childcare costs, there is also wanting to spend time with the children, issues with collecting from school etc. The opening hours at the doctors will only be a tiny tiny variable, and since most docs are open 8.30 to 6 as a minimum it already a non issue.

So you're saying that cost and incompatibility of opening hours are barriers. Kinda my point.

Drillski,

It sounds like your opinion has been soured somewhat by an uncooperative employee. In a general way, I don't blame her - British labour relations tend to the lowest common denominator, and I think there's been a realisation amongst employees that you're viewed as a unit of production. So why would you make any effort to accommodate your employer? Sadly for you, the more enlightened employers are tarred with the same brush.

So you're saying that cost and incompatibility of opening hours are barriers. Kinda my point.

Exactly the oposite. Two things stop people with kids working full time.

1. If you have kids and want to work you have to pay someone to look after them. This is expensive. It stops people going back to work full time.

2. If you can afford it why work full time and pay someone to look after your kids when you would much rather do it yourself. This means people choose not to go back to work full time.

Everything else is inconsequential.

Not sure why anybody would call into a coffee shop on the way to work and spend £2.50 when you can have a cuppa or coffee at home.

Not sure why anyone would spend £2k on a bike when you can get a car for that and drive places...

I need a flu jab, as the nurse only works 11-2 3 days a week, I have two choices:

1) Take a day off work

2) Get the flu

I need a flu jab, as the nurse only works 11-2 3 days a week, I have two choices:

1) Take a day off work

2) Get the flu

3) Get your flu jab from somewhere else such as a pharmacy.

4) Switch GPs, their service is clearly shit

5) Explain that you can't get to the nurse between 11-2 as you have a job and have a doctor give the jab during a early morning/evening appointment.

6) Explain to your employer it is of benefit to them that you have the job and get them to let you travel to the docs and get the jab on work time (like most sensible employers would).

But since when did this become about GPs, the shops aren't open when I want to buy stuff. Bahhh. CRCs gain!

6) Go in your lunch break.