[Closed] One NHS cut we can all agree on?

It's very easy to say "oh cut that part of the nhs" if it does not relate to you or anyone you know. I'm sure I have things going on that people on here would see as a waste of resources but they are everything to me.

Having said that, homeopathy is not something I believe works.

Rachel

he is right I say free charlatans for all especially the gullible.

I always thought it absurd that there was a homeopathic hospital in Glasgow.

we can all agree on?

There was some woman on the radio today going on about the double blind trials which have shown a benefit from homeopathy - what she neglected to mention was that any which have shown a benefit were small scale ones with no statistical significance, or suffering from some other issue. Wanted to text in to say she was being economic with the truth, but they'd moved on by the time I got the chance.

I did think about how you'd carry out a homeopathic trial though. Give one person the real drug and 99 the placebo. Select one person from that trial group at random and add another 99 people taking a placebo. Repeat 10 times or so. If more than 50% of the final group of 100 gets better, that's definitive proof that homeopathy works.

[i]I did think about how you'd carry out a homeopathic trial though. Give one person the real drug and 99 the placebo. Select one person from that trial group at random and add another 99 people taking a placebo. Repeat 10 times or so. If more than 50% of the final group of 100 gets better, that's definitive proof that homeopathy works.
[/i]
😆

Surely you don't need a whole homeopathy hospital, if you have one cupboard somewhere in the NHS marked homeopathy, that will be enough for the whole NHS, even if the cupboard is locked and empty?

I did think about how you'd carry out a homeopathic trial though. Give one person the real drug and 99 the placebo. Select one person from that trial group at random and add another 99 people taking a placebo. Repeat 10 times or so. If more than 50% of the final group of 100 gets better, that's definitive proof that homeopathy works.

but then you've got the placebo effect to consider as well!

Some people swear by homoeopathy, and I'm happy that it works for them but only when there are lots of clinical trials and there is definitive proof for each remedy they should be available on the NHS, much like all the "proper" drugs at present.

even if the cupboard is locked and empty

It will need at least a tap.

or how about a cull of uneeded layers of management and leave the health professionals alone to get on with their jobs

If it's OK for the NHS to deal drugs for the pharmacuetical companies, why isn't it OK to fund homeopathy?

I don't know if it works, but I do know that herbal remedies do and yet they are completely ignored by the No Hope Service.

The NHS is more to do with the large amount of profits that certain individuals and companies are mading from treating people than it is to do with healing.

For the past 10 to 15 years or more athletics bodies have been researching herbal remedies, however this research has been ignored by the health service.

Why?

Though evidence suggests homeopathy has no clinical benefit, anecdotal evidence suggests many people benefit from its many forms. Whether this is placebo effect, or some science not understood by western minds I don't know, however, like political parties, the NHS has to accept certain boundaries. Much like the way the NHS work closely with but do not actually provide social services, health and safety executive, child protection agency etc I think that Homeopathy has a place, but not as part of the NHS.

Given that everything has a cost, and the NHS is supposed to have a limited budget, every new venture comes at the expense of an old one. Now, practices fall from favour and services are streamlined to free up cash, but like when NHS trusts decide not to pay for cancer medication that has negligible results, sadly in this current system the results have to be compared to the financial cost. When the last round of arguments about unused cancer medication went round the general answer from the trusts involved was that using a treatment with a 10% chance of improvement cost the same as ten treatments with an 80% chance of improvement, so that was the route they had to take (despite tabloid hysteria).

I'm not sure how much Homeopathy costs, but I'd prefer to see money spent on procedures and treatments that have a high rate of proven effectiveness to justify their expense.

I'd prefer not to see the NHS begin justifying every decision on financial grounds, as it could lead down a slippery slope, such as is it worth spending £10k+ on cardiac surgery on someone in their 80's? Is it worth treating an alcoholic for liver disease?

In short, reflexology seems to help my kidney problems, and i prefer having my feet rubbed than taken loads of tablets, but I accept that by not following the recognised norm, I have to pay for this treatment separately.

but what about my snake oil business?? 😕

kaesae - Member
why isn't it OK to fund homeopathy?

because it's total b**locks.

Kesae, Herbal remedies and homeopathy are not the same thing. Homeopathy is the realm of quacks and charlatans, herbal remedies do actually work and are the basis for many drugs produced by pharmaceutical companies.
The problem with herbal remedies is that it is difficult to measure the amount of active compound and purity of the preparation. Herbal remedies are actual drugs too and will have many interactions and can cause harm in the same way drugs do.
Just because it comes from flowers and willow bark doesn't mean it isn't going to do you harm if you aren't careful with the dose.

Edit:

I'm not sure how much Homeopathy costs, but I'd prefer to see money spent on procedures and treatments that have a high rate of proven effectiveness to justify their expense.

I'd prefer not to see the NHS begin justifying every decision on financial grounds, as it could lead down a slippery slope, such as is it worth spending £10k+ on cardiac surgery on someone in their 80's? Is it worth treating an alcoholic for liver disease?

It's a sad fact that there is only so much money to go around. If decisions have to be made over medicines which are proven effective in order to justify dispensing them on the NHS (and like it or not, they do) why shouldn't homeopathy be subject to the same rigour?

You can't get osteopathy on the NHS either, a form of treatment with great results and a proven track record of success, but the NHS is happy to give people pain killers for years. The cost of the pain killers is more than the cost of the treatment from the osteopaths.

As I said the NHS is more about making money through treatment and dealing drugs for the pharmacuetical companies than it is about healing!

but what about my snake oil business??

exactly, and what about my garage full of Rhino horns? what do I do with those now?

Doesn't Homeopathy work on animals? I'm sure I read something about this once.

It'll all be gone soon anyway, so people like me will profit with my medical training and knowledge of what plants that grow at the side of the road can be used for! Sign up now for the meehaja medical service!

As I said the NHS is more about making money through treatment and dealing drugs for the pharmacuetical companies than it is about healing!

I don't entirely disagree, and there have definitely been cases of trials badly run and cover-ups. I prefer to think that the regulations drug companies are forced to adhere to at least go some way to preventing some of the abuses.
Alternative medicine is a billion dollar industry too, and isn't subject to the same controls drug companies are. I'm not defending big pharma, just pointing out that just because they wear sandals and practice meditation doesn't mean they aren't making a bucket of cash off the back of people's suffering.

Tim minchin does a great bit about this. I think It's called storm. They have a name for alternative medicine that's been proven to work. It's called medicine.

Doesn't Homeopathy work on animals? I'm sure I read something about this once.

Only tree-hugging, hippy animals like koalas.

Doesn't Homeopathy work on animals? I'm sure I read something about this once.

Well the placebo effect is certainly seen in animals. That animals, espcially pets, appear to get a bit better after being made a fuss of shouldn't come as much of a surprise to anyone. Additionally part of the placebo effect is also on the person giving the treatment. That is why the best trials are double or triple blinded.

Osteopathy can be done on the NHS - NICE guidelines say it can

As for homeopathy on animals - I know someone who makes a good living out of this - Mainly horses! he is not a chareltan but is sincere - perhaps deluded but sincere and he gets enough people to pay to make a good living.

i) Like it or not, Placebo effect has been robustly proven as effective in a significant number of patients who suffer from "hard to treat" disorders.

ii) I cant see a bottle of tap water or some sugar pills really costing the NHS lot of money, if it works then crack on.

iii) since the first rule of medicine is to do no harm, the possibility of improving a "difficult" patients condition through placebo, meaning no side effects or toxicology risk shouldn't be dismissed.

Earl_Grey - Member
Kesae, Herbal remedies and homeopathy are not the same thing. Homeopathy is the realm of quacks and charlatans, herbal remedies do actually work and are the basis for many drugs produced by pharmaceutical companies.
The problem with herbal remedies is that it is difficult to measure the amount of active compound and purity of the preparation. Herbal remedies are actual drugs too and will have many interactions and can cause harm in the same way drugs do.
Just because it comes from flowers and willow bark doesn't mean it isn't going to do you harm if you aren't careful with the dose.

My point was that not enough research is being done into herbal remedies or homeopathy. I haven't studied homeopathy so don't know about it! However since no research is being done by the NHS into herbal remedies I have to wonder why a massive resource is being ignored? We could easily research herbal remedies and work on the process of developing the substances!

As for dropping homeopathy because it has been proven not to work, who is doing the research and what are they testing, or more importantly who is funding the research and how much are they paying.

How much of the research into modern so called medicine and the drugs they use is funded by the pharmaceutical companies? or government bodies with ties to them. Another question is of course how many people who work on said research go onto well paid jobs for the pharmaceutical companies?

The bottom line is the NHS and our society as a whole is based on a fundamentaly flawed philosophy, that is to say a fundamentally flawed analysis technique.

Until we are able to evaluate a situation and get the most out of it, I do not see our species having much of a future.

Should Homeopathy be dropped? maybe! should we leave our future in the hands of fools.

Since we don't have a choice, I suggest.

LETS GET PISSED!!!

placebo is powerfull stuff yes, so why wrap it up with homeopathy?

Kaesae: morphine is 'herbal' - aspirin is 'herbal' - digitalin is 'herbal'

lots and lots and lots of drugs use compounds derived from plants.

to suggest that no-one is researching the use of plants in medicine is just wrong.

Here's your placebo, enjoy!

to suggest that no-one is researching the use of plants in medicine is just wrong

My point was that not enough research is being done into herbal remedies

To change what I'm saying to suit your argument is just plain wrong sweetie!

What I'm saying is unless they can process it and make it into a product they control it is by and large being ignored.

Yes a lot of substances come from plants but if the majority of herbal remedies are being ingnored then why is that?

Homeopathy is a treatment method that has been around for a long time.

All water has been recycled zillions of times, so it should contain all the homeopathic benefits we need.

Therefore we no longer need homeopaths because we are already getting the treatment out of our taps. 🙂

A long time ago when I was about 10 I was given homeopathic medicine to cure travel sickness. I took one tiny pill and told if I ever felt travel sick again I should take one more only. After one pill I was fine for car travel, but on a particularly rough ferry crossing to France I was ill and took the other pill. I've never been travel sick since in the 20 odd years since taking the second pill.

Do I believe homeopathic medicines work? Actually, no
Did it have the desired result? Yes
Was it the placebo effect? Probably

Ian

i) Like it or not, Placebo effect has been robustly proven as effective in a significant number of patients who suffer from [s] "hard to treat"[/s] psychosomatic disorders.

Fixed that for you....

Edit: see above.

However since no research is being done by the NHS into herbal remedies I have to wonder why a massive resource is being ignored? We could easily research herbal remedies and work on the process of developing the substances!

A mate's partner is doing just this, however plant substances can be dangerous if the doses are not controlled - you have to know how much you are giving someone or risk side effects or death. St John's Wort is a herbal tincture used to treat depression, did you know that it will stop the combined pill from working? Digitalis from Foxgloves is a heart medicine, but the wrong dose can kill. I believe Belladonna (deadly nightshade) extract is used in some medicines but the name give's a clue to the consequences of getting it wrong.

LETS GET PISSED!!!

Jam bo - I was [b]trying[/b] to be <cough> non-judgmental </cough> 😉

[i]homeopathic hospital[/i]

they take a normal hospital, spread all the building materials out across the whole city and then, just by being wheeled through the city on a trolley car crash victims are cured?

I think they shouldn't cut homoeopathy spending altogether, but cut it to a very small sum, and then spread that very thinly across all PCTs.

Homeopathy is rubbish. All the scientific evidence shows it doesnt work. Its amazing how many common ailments clear up of their own accord in time - and thats what homeopathy relies on. For all the good homeopathic remedies do you may as well just drink plain tap water - same result and a damn sight cheaper 😉

IIRC you can already be prescribed placebos, if there is a advantage to prescribing homeopathic medicines to people over standard placebos and it can be proven that it is cost effective (i.e. has the same effect but cheaper than real medicine) then maybe it should stay. However, I have concerns for anybody who practices it and things it is proper medicine as they are clearyl quacks.

FYI there is a full and detailed explaination of homeopathy at this website

http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

Surely all we need is the [i]memory[/i] that homeopathy used to exist in the NHS anyway?

but I do know that herbal remedies do and yet they are completely ignored by the No Hope Service.

They're not. Biotech companies are falling over themselves to test every plant they can find on every illness in the hope of finding a cure for something important.

They might isolate the active compound, but it's still a herbal remedy is it not?

This seems worth pointing out here:

darryl-cunningham.blogspot.com/2010/06/homeopathy.html

(It's a comic, but significantly better than most 'proper' science journalism. There's also a linked comic about MMR which is quite good.)

For the past 10 to 15 years or more athletics bodies have been researching herbal remedies, however this research has been ignored by the health service.

My point was that not enough research is being done into herbal remedies or homeopathy. I haven't studied homeopathy so don't know about it! However since no research is being done by the NHS into herbal remedies I have to wonder why a massive resource is being ignored? We could easily research herbal remedies and work on the process of developing the substances!

What I'm saying is unless they can process it and make it into a product they control it is by and large being ignored.
Yes a lot of substances come from plants but if the majority of herbal remedies are being ingnored then why is that?

Sorry but there are a few sweeping statements here; I think you need to name your source.

Seriously, how can you possibly know what is and isn't being researched throughout every NHS trust, university, and teaching hospital in the UK? Not to mention the scores of consultants and GP's who regularly contribute peer assessed and published research. I need to know how you know this. I may not sleep tonight and resort to some spurious herbal remedy.

[url= http://www.badscience.net/category/complementary-medicine/homeopathy/ ]Ben Goldacre on Homeopathy[/url]

Sorry but there are a few sweeping statements here; I think you need to name your source.

Kaesae's source is his own active imagination 🙂

A man walks into the doctors and say's 'I don't feel well'. Doctor sends him for Homeopathy.

If there is no Homeopathy does the doctor say P*** off theres nowt wrong? No he sends the man to get drugs or some other treatment. There is no cost saving.

A man walks into the doctors and say's 'I don't feel well'. Doctor sends him for Homeopathy.

I'd have thought that the doctor might first want to treat the man properly before even thinking about homeopathy. I know that's what I'd prefer if it was me.

If there is no Homeopathy does the doctor say P*** off theres nowt wrong? No he sends the man to get drugs or some other treatment.

Well again I'd have thought that the doctor might be a bit more tactful than that but I see nothing problem with saying "there's nothing wrong with you" if that is indeed the case. Why on earth would a doctor give someone treatment if there is nothing wrong? Isn't that unethical?

I am obviously shortening the process here but the doctor will work through a pattern of treatments. If Homeopathy is not in the mix then something else will be at that stage of the treatment pattern.

Well it'll surely be a case of trying say 9 things instead of 10. It'll mean that the 'there's nothing more we can do' talk will be brought forward, that's all.

I am obviously shortening the process here but the doctor will work through a pattern of treatments. If Homeopathy is not in the mix then something else will be at that stage of the treatment pattern.

Nope. That isn't the paradigm we work to.

Much of what we deal with is self-limiting illness (the kind a homeopath would treat - and then claim the credit for the cure). Homeopathy - in its purist form - is very mechanistic and far from holistic - with an emphasis on a remedy-for-every-ill and failure to confront psychological elements of illness other than by giving placebos.

have i seen people who have been harmed by Homeopathic practitioners? yes definately. I can recall one patient who was treated by a homeopathic practitioner for a treatable cancer with a wholefoods diet. This patient returned to the NHS once his cancer was causing him unbearable pain and was untreatable. Yeah this is the patients choice but his treatnent was dangerous, unproven and led to the early death of this patient. Yet unlike with doctors there is no comeback on this dangerous quack- If he was a doc he would be struck off. but who cares it's only herbal.

Unless tt's evidence based it should not be available- end of!

This much can be said for it:

Homeopathy keeps cetain types happy that they are being 'treated' for comparitively little outlay, otherwise they'll revert to bed-hogging, which is far more costly long-term.

How much does the NHS spend/waste treating people who smoke for smoking related illnesses? Gotta be a few quid they could save there by making them pay for their own treatment.

Dr Nick - rather a mix of herbal, homeopath and nutritionist there 🙂

I thought I had seen some data that suggested NHS homeopathy saved money for exactly the reasons jp-t853 said.

I can't find it now however.

its obvious quackery I have to say.

I’d have to say in my end of the NHS very little research is been done – largely due to the fact that we have far too much worked to do with too little resource – TBH research in to treatments is largely done through academic institutions and drug companies then the NHS its self
As to the whole homeopathy thing for me one of the issues is the academic snobbery that agues that only randomised control trials is valid evidence and that only evidence with a numeric value is valid. While this type of research is generally the best at looking in to the effectiveness of medication it is not the whole story.
I’ve no doubt that homeopathy fair quite badly in RCT and quantitative research, however should the inquiry look in to the subjective experience using more qualitative measure then a different may emerge
The NHS spends Billions of pounds on medication each year and to be fair some of the evidence is not hugely convincing then I see no problem with the use of homeopathy

How much does the NHS spend/waste treating people who smoke for smoking related illnesses?

May as well add fatties, anorexic's/bulimics, drug addicts, alcoholics.......oh and idiots who fall off bikes and hurt themselves...................

At least smokers are taxed to the hilt for their habit (in addition to paying NI etc) and effectively pay for their treatment.

oh shush!

people should be encouraged to participate in sport - it's all part of a healthy lifestyle.

and you never know, someone still engaging in sport in their 70's might still have sufficient bone-density / mobility / co-ordination in their 80's to avoid having 'a fall' and the associated broken-hip...

how much is a packet of fags these days? £5? - the fact that people still buy fags at this price shows the tax isn't high enough.

Nice one Lifer, I was going to chip in with dr Ben Goldacre and the badscience column - proof that 'here, this is a sugar pill, it's made out of sugar and nothing else' will invoke the placebo effect if it's handed out to a doctor

the only reason people think they feel better after a homeopathic remedy is that they are rehydrating themselves cos they're drinking water the digestive system knows it but they don't realise !!!!

Is the NHS a major researcher anyway? Surely it's done by companies and unis mostly?

ahwiles

I quite agree and I certainly wasn't encouraging smoking, simply pointing out that there are many 'activities' which cost then NHS money which could be termed as self-inflicted. Smoking is one of the few bad habits where the participants are net contributors to the NHS, and by quite a high margin.

Let Dara O'Briain take it home...

Is the NHS a major researcher anyway? Surely it's done by companies and unis mostly?

AFAIK Doctors have to write papers and contribute to research as part of their on-going training. MrsGrahamS has certainly contributed to several papers and conducted clinical audits.

absolutely graham s. it's(research) an essential part of modern medical specialist training.

However the scary thing about medical research is the way the multinational drug companies hide -ve data such as with arcoxia and rosiglitazone

Gotcha.