[Closed] OMG: Someone has the balls to stick the Vs up at the yanks....

I guess I was hoping MacAskill would take the money for the flights, go over, lay down the (Scots) law in full and impeccable detail, then as soon as they started with the inevitable accusations, tell them to shove it up their chuff. But never mind.

I want to see the look of," Shock and Awe", on the US Senators faces, when they relise that they are in fact not the worlds judge and jury and have rightly been told to get back in their box and **** off. 😛

Like the yanks refuse to permit their pilots from attending friendly fire inquests which kill UK personnel....but it still doesn't make it right though, does it, Scotland should never have released him. If the average jock is too proud/stupid to understand why America might be a tad annoyed by this mess then Mel Gibson really does have a lot to answer for.

Who is Mel Gibson?

I just wish Megrahi had got his appeal heard ( I don't think that would have suited the yanks either)

A country like the USA which tortures prisoners and executes people without a fair trial (British person awaiting the chop as we speak) has no moral ground to stand on.

As an average Scot I don't give a shit what a country like the USA thinks of our merciful approach to justice.

"You smell that? Do you smell that? Xenophobia, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of xenophobia in the evening."

😈 😉

It's crystal clear that you don't give a shit, but that still doesn't make it right. Merciful or fanciful? I dont think Scotland can take the moral high ground on this at all. It's shameful

What?

"You smell that? Do you smell that? Xenophobia, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that.

I'm not sure ........are you talking about enfht's reference to "jocks" being "too proud/stupid" ?

I suppose it did have a slight wiff about it.

[i]dont think Scotland can take the moral high ground on this at all. It's shameful[/i]
So how much do you know about the "jock" legal system and it's treatment of the terminally ill? Off you go, you small boy.

It's a complex issue no doubt. I had the same thought as the OP when I heard that on the news, stuff the Yanks.

Big cost though. The Americans will be even less likely to trust our judicial system in the future, and a terrorist got freedom when he should have rotted in jail. I agree with the Senators on that point.

I think you'll find the correct quote would be, " I love the smell of xenophobia in the morning". 🙂

I'm sure they just wanted to congratulate your countrymen and their application of "merciful justice" and allowing the murderer of 270 people to walk free whilst laughing over his shoulder.

Well done chaps, leading the world in Justice and Banking now.

Yeah, the american legal system is totally AWESOME!

>I think you'll find the correct quote would be, " I love the smell of xenophobia in the morning".

🙄

mmmm, what about all those IRA terrorists they let go in the 80’s, oh that right they where [b]“Freedom Fighters”[/b]

I can't help thinking that letting him go was a convenient way of avoiding his appeal - there was fair to good chance he'd have been cleared, which would have been even more embarrassing for an awful lot of people, not to mention the inconvenience of having to find out who actually did it.

On the subject of embarrassment, how about our PM saying we were the junior partner to the US fighting the Nazis in 1940? - ERRRR hang on a minute - the US weren't in the war until 1943.

the US weren't in the war until 1943.

mmmm, what about all those IRA terrorists they let go in the 80’s

Late nineties to present, keep up at the back.

Someone in the us secret service should point out to the senators that to not release him would have lead to a very unpleasant time for everyone at the appeal. swiss electronics anyone?

IanW - Member
...Well done chaps, leading the world in Justice... now.

Aye, but Brazilian electricians and old men walking home with their hands in their pockets feel safe here.

Holding a dying person in jail is tantamount to torture. al-Megrahi may have survived a bit longer than 3 months but he is not likely to see out a year.

In any case if the USA doesn't like the decision, then they should be talking directly to the Scottish government.

Scotland, BP salutes your courage, your strength, your indefatigability 🙂

IanMunro - Member
Scotland, BP salutes your courage, your strength, your indefatigability

IanMunro - Scotland salutes your complete ignorance of the facts.

I'm sure they just wanted to congratulate your countrymen and their application of "merciful justice" and allowing the murderer of 270 people to walk free

Surely all the Scottish Parliament has to do is convince the Yanks that al-Megrahi was released in exchange for an oil deal ?

I'm sure the Yanks wouldn't have any problem at all understanding the importance of sweeping under the carpet the death of a mere 270 innocent civilians, when faced with the need to secure vital oil supplies.

Simple really.

Late nineties to present, keep up at the back.

US courts would free IRA suspects rather than extradite them to the UK, even though they had been caught in the act of purchasing guns and explosives for the use of terrorist acts.

Scottish law releases a man they, the US, consider to be a terrorist on compassionate ground and they get all high and mighty..

i like STW at times.....

the senators are looking to find someone to blame for an industrial disaster, they think BP is a british company it isnt. They think the british government released Megrahi it didnt. If they want to learn more about industrial disasters and culprits going unpunished they should google the word bhopal or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster

Scottish politicians - parochial doesn't begin to describe their corner shop view of the world.

>al-Megrahi may have survived a bit longer than 3 months but he is not likely to see out a year.

Really ?

"Megrahi was freed on compassionate grounds by the Scottish government on 20 August 2009"

(looks at calendar)

"A doctor has recently released that although the world was told that Megrahi had at least 3 months left to live, a recent health check has confirmed that he may live another 10 years after he outlived the prognosis of his prostate cancer."

From TJ's fave http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelbaset_Ali_Mohmed_Al_Megrahi#Family_and_health

😉

[url= http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Lockerbie--Kenny-MacAskill39s-statement.5574230.jp ]Kenny MacAskill's full speech at the time of Al Megrahi's release[/url] explains rather eloquently what the Scottish law is and why the action was taken.

The end bit sums it up nicely:

Scotland will forever remember the crime that has been perpetrated against our people and those from many other lands. The pain and suffering will remain forever. Some hurt can never heal. Some scars can never fade.

Those who have been bereaved cannot be expected to forget, let alone forgive. Their pain runs deep and the wounds remain.

However, Mr Al Megrahi now faces a sentence imposed by a higher power. It is one that no court, in any jurisdiction, in any land, could revoke or overrule. It is terminal, final and irrevocable. He is going to die.

In Scotland, we are a people who pride ourselves on our humanity.

It is viewed as a defining characteristic of Scotland and the Scottish people.

The perpetration of an atrocity and outrage cannot and should not be a basis for losing sight of who we are, the values we seek to uphold, and the faith and beliefs by which we seek to live.

Mr Al Megrahi did not show his victims any comfort or compassion. They were not allowed to return to the bosom of their families to see out their lives, let alone their dying days. No compassion was shown by him to them.

But that alone is not a reason for us to deny compassion to him and his family in his final days.

Our justice system demands that judgement be imposed but compassion be available.

Our beliefs dictate that justice be served, but mercy be shown.

Compassion and mercy are about upholding the beliefs that we seek to live by, remaining true to our values as a people. No matter the severity of the provocation or the atrocity perpetrated.

For these reasons – and these reasons alone – it is my decision that Mr Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, convicted in 2001 for the Lockerbie bombing, now terminally ill with prostate cancer, be released on compassionate grounds and allowed to return to Libya to die.

The US should really STFU until they get round to apologizing for giving William Rogers a medal instead of a court martial.

It is a pity that al Megrahi's appeal had to be dropped, as there are number of Scottish families who would like to find out who really blew up the plane over Lockerbie, and why the yanks were so keen to blame Libya.

Irrespective of that, the Scottish legal system allows for terminally ill patients to be released on compassionate grounds -that was the law when Megrahi was convicted, so no one can complain if the law is applied now.

If you don't like it, feel free to never visit Scotland, drink our whisky or eat shortbread ever again.

That's the risk you take though, medical prognosis can never be 100%, but you have to act on the best information available at the time. This isn't Ernest Saunders here, he does have prostate cancer and it is going to kill him, no question of either- it's just inconvenient that he won't do it to the expected timescale.

The counter to the "He's not dead yet" argument I think has to be that if you want a 100% guarantee that the person involved will definately be dead within 6 months, you'll never be able to release another person in this way. Some people might approve of that of course but it's not the law.

It seems like Megrahi would have been released anyway if his appeal had gone ahead but medical advice was that he would not live long enough or else we could keep a man the doctors said was dying in jail neither of these are attractive choices. I dont like to think that a mass murderer is going free but on balance I support the scottish government decision

Scotland will forever remember the crime that has been perpetrated against our people and those from many other lands. The pain and suffering will remain forever. Some hurt can never heal. Some scars can never fade.

Those who have been bereaved cannot be expected to forget, let alone forgive. Their pain runs deep and the wounds remain.

Oh purleeeeeeeeease

Just paint yourself in woad and queue up to follow Mel Gibson will you? Utter and complete starry-eyed bolleaux.

Aye - much better if we'd bow down and lick Obamas shoes like your weasily English Prime Minister eh?

Well, as a general rule, sucking up to superpowers isn't a bad idea. And having a convenient englishman to do it for you is one of the better ways to do it, rather than getting our own tongues dirty. At least Cameron's going for the shoes, that's a step up from the last one.

have you seen obamas poll ratings I would nt waste my time licking his boots

have you seen obamas poll ratings I would nt waste my time licking his boots

Poll ratings mean nothing... look how long Bush was around. 😀

Just paint yourself in woad and queue up to follow Mel Gibson will you? Utter and complete starry-eyed bolleaux.

WTF has Mel Gibson got to do with it??
And which bit exactly is "bolleaux"?

The bit where he says the victim's families may not be able to forgive? Or the bit where he says all of Scotland will remember a Lockerbie??

Regardless of whether the realease was right or wrong, I'm pleased that the scots are waving the fingers at the yanks. Well done, and let's hope many learn from it.

Regardless of whether the realease was right or wrong, I'm pleased that the scots are waving the fingers at the yanks. Well done, and let's hope many learn from it.

Quite, I do not think Scotland should account for it's laws just because the Yanks think our legal system is flawed . If their legal system was that good all the states would not have their own laws

I'd far rather have the Scottish government's even-handed and principled approach than suffer the sight of Cameron falling over himself fawning, bowing and scraping in his haste to rewrite history and kiss America's collective ringpiece. Junior partner indeed.

Scottish politicians - parochial doesn't begin to describe their corner shop view of the world.

I'm thinking that someone in Bristol probably isn't going to be best equipped to comment on the contours of Scottish politics.

Ah! more scottish bashing from the engerlish.
The reason Scotland still exists is because half of us are all f'ing mental.
You could never wipe us out, so settled for a flawed union instead.
Still makes me proud to be Scottish when I see the Engerlish prime minister squirm to the yanks and forget his history(how f'ing embarrassing).
Oh OBAMA, OBAMA! IT WAS THEM, NOT US, IT WAS THEM SCOTTISH PEOPLE THAT SET HIM FREE, WE WERE JUST A JUNIOR PARTY TO THEM, SO IT WAS THE SCOTS, NOT US.
(obama) It's o.k David, trade sanctions for Scotland are just around the corner.
(obama) Fancy a scotch on the rocks Dave?
(Dangerous Dave) No, but I fancy throwing rocks at the scots, because they only gave us one measly mp.
But I'll have to just settle for throwing more of the haggis munching brigade on the dole instead(giggles).

Not that he had anything to do with Lockerbie anyway, just a pawn thrown to us to open Libya to the world trade.
Do you think the yanks are still sore that they haven't got a piece of the next oil megafield?

QUOTE: #
druidh - Member

Aye - much better if we'd bow down and lick Obamas shoes like your weasily English Prime Minister eh?
Posted 3 hours ago #
UNQUOTE.

Blair, Brown, CAMERON...no more jocks! 😛

steffybhoy - Member

Ah! more scottish bashing from the engerlish.
The reason Scotland still exists is because half of us are all f'ing mental.
You could never wipe us out, so settled for a flawed union instead.

Half of you may well be 'f'ing mental', the other half of you are English.

The union was actually 'your' idea. You were skint, we were not. Fast forward 300 years and plus ca change!

I do not think Scotland should account for it's laws just because the Yanks think our legal system is flawed . If their legal system was that good all the states would not have their own laws

Your second comment about the federal structure just shows how silly you are and your ignorance of American history (and British history if you want to consider why Scotland and England have different laws).

Who is Mel Gibson?

It's not a questioning of the law - it's a questioning of the decision to release him and whether it was taken corruptly.

I really do not think that any Scottish ministers would release such a high profile prisoner corruptly. And I am not surprised they are not going to the US especially after watching that shambles with Tony Hayward the other week. (but do not worry "call me Dave" will be over there [s]being his bitch[/s]smoothing things over with Obama)

WTF has Mel Gibson got to do with it??

Do you still have that Wallace statue that bears a uncanny resemblance to Mel Gibson?
I seem to remember they were going to redo it so it looked a bit more 14th century Scotland & a bit less 20th century Holywood

I really do not think that any Scottish ministers would release such a high profile prisoner corruptly.

If the USA senators wish to discuss the release I'm sure they would be welcome to come over here to fact find.

Trying to summon the ministers of another country is arrogant and ignorant.

bravohotel9er - Member
The union was actually 'your' idea. You were skint, we were not. Fast forward 300 years and plus ca change!

So why were massive bribes paid to the Scottish nobility to bring it off?

If you put aside your hatred of Americans and look at things from the opposite point of view. If a plane full of scottish people was blown up over America, the terrorist was found guilty and locked up, you would feel like justice had been served. You then find out that they release him and he returns home to a heros welcome, you would feel pretty ****ed off about that.

all of the people saying it shameful.... you do know that the usa funded the ira as well as harbouring ira bombers and not extroditing them back to the uk. they can hardly take the moral high ground now can they. what about funding israel and allowing them to continue to carry out genocide and mass murder? how about breaking the geneva convention to go to war without provication? torturing suspected terrorists with no evidence? or causing environmental disaster countless tmes without cleaning up after themselves? whats shameful is the uk or more england bending over backwards to back up a bunch of egotistical, moronic, morally void, glory hogging idiots frankly.

If someone else jumped off a cliff would you do the same? Doesn't matter what anyone else did really does it? You are judged by your own actions.

LOL - still arguing about stuff that happened hundreds of years ago.

The US has been urged to boycott Scottish products and go to Ireland on holiday instead. Scotch Whisky exports to the US are worth £350 million a year. The UK is the biggest single importer of Jack Daniels so two can play at that game 😉

I like this pic of 2 protesters who are having a nice fun day out. I particularly like the camp wearing of the Tam O' Shanter and updating of traditional dress with a fetching shoulder bag.

[img] [/img]

The small minded little Englanders have really outed themselves here.

I'd rather be a new testamentarian " turn the other cheek" and be merciful than an old testamentarian "an eye for an eye"and be vengefull and full of hate.

I understand peoples anger over this - but that doesn't make the decision wrong that a some of the victims families are angry and a few USA politicos are after making some political capital

I especially love the confusion over jurisdictions and events

Blair brokered a tawdry prisoner exchange agreement with Libya - not realising that the lockerbie bomber could not be released under that scheme - this is where the whiff of corruption is. The release under compassionate grounds might have been convenient to avoid an appeal but no one with any degree of sanity would believe that an SNP minister would do a UK PM a favour like that.

Highlighting American bad practice to "even out" the argument really does say it all. Two wrongs eh?

This thread like no other highlights the great work the press and others have done in defecting folk from the real issues here.

Lets not forget the combat medals awarded to the personnel involved in the shooting down on a civilian Iranian jet AFTER it became clear some 300 civilians had been killed. You can still find video footage etc of woman and children being fished out of the sea.

Go team America.

Do you still have that Wallace statue that bears
a uncanny resemblance to Mel Gibson?

The one at the Wallace Monument? Removed in 2008 after being repeatedly vandalised by people of excellent taste.

WTF you think this has to do with any of this tho I don't know?

You and other English (or at least non-Scots) on this thread seem to be suggesting that the Scots are a bit uppity for not scurrying over to curtsey before the yanks and that we should know our place.

seem to be suggesting that the Scots are a bit uppity for not scurrying over to curtsey before the yanks

If the so called politicians had any meat about them then they would go over and unequivocally prove that the decision they took was the correct one, had nothing to do with any Libian or BP deal and then walk away with their heads held high. Instead they've picked up their football and gone home saying we're not playing anymore. If you make the big decisions then you need to stand up and defend them if questioned.

>Lets not forget the combat medals awarded to the personnel involved in the shooting down on a civilian Iranian jet<

Quite - the level of US hypocrisy is staggering.

How many Scots were wiped out in this - 11 / 12? Do you think Mcaskill and Co conveniently forgot about that?

Iranian passenger jet shot down = $62 million in compensation paid by the US with no admission of responsibility or apology to Iran.

Lockerbie = Close to $2billion extracted out of Libya.

Lets get one thing straight. ALOT OF INNOCENT PEOPLE DIED. Why was there no apology from the US?

Are they that arrogant?

LHS - no politician of gravitas would allow themselves to be summoned byt a couple of grandstanding US senators.

The decision was explained at the time and has been again. Its very clear

All the documentation the Scottish government can release has been - the only documents not are the ones the UK and USA government refused to release and the personal medical information which is rightly confidential.

This is not simply an "American tragedy", although they were the most prevalent nation aboard the plane itself. Al Megrahi was referred to as the Lockerbie Bomber because the bombed plane crashed into the Scottish village of Lockerbie and killed many people there, leaving a huge furrow in the ground where a street full of people's homes used to be.

I'm not really surprised that there are US politicians who are seeking to make capital our if this, but saddened to see another British prime minister capitulate in such a tawdry fashion to the whims of the US President. I've grown used to hearing about the, usually tragic, consequences of the American inability to understand distinctions between different countries and cultures - i guess we're seeing that played out in our own situation now. Druidh began the thread with a joking reference to 'carpet bombing' but it's not difficult to see how these situations have deteriorated in other countries to the point where military action has been taken by the US.

The American propensity to debate situations with little concern for critical rigour is such a common feature of their domestic politics, and it's become increasingly prevalent in their foreign affairs as well. The recent sacking of a black American politician for racism - based in an online video from a right- wing blogsite which was later shown to have been heavily edited to portray the victim as having views diametrically opposed to what she actually said - suggests that Obama's administration is even more media driven and image obsessed than Blair ever was. Now they're posturing to try and infer links between the new folk-demon BP and the Scottish government's decision to release al Megrahi - doesn't this all sound a bit familiar? Next thing we know they'll be claiming there's clear evidence of WMD round the Holy Loch and assembling a task force from the coalition of the willing.

If the so called politicians had any meat about them then they would go over and unequivocally prove that the decision they took was the correct one

Our law was applied. The man was released.
What is there to prove?

They may not agree with our laws. That's fine.
They may not agree with the release. That's fine too.

Do you reckon they'd come over here to explain one of their justice decisions to us? Not ****ing likely.

I must admit it is abit sad when you get a UK politician quickly flying across and talking of 'special relationships'.

A UK politician with balls would invite and expect the President to come here.

Pictures from a recent CIA briefing on insurgent activity in the Glasgow region of Scotland, discussing whether the prevalence of wee shiites poses threat to US interests

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

How is the US going to punish Scotland?

Oh let me see, turn them into human shields effectively by putting missile shields/first line of defence for the US on European soil.

ditch-jockey - I love that post 🙂

For me this 'exercise' is another good example of why politicians should not be involved in justice, nor make decisions for when (or not) to release convicted 'persons'.

And this current furrow is 100% US porkbelly politics anyway, no doubt fanned by BP's competitors.

And the boy, Dave, should be made to make a public apology at Heathrow in regard to his 1940 gaff. I wonder which junior boy wrote his history homework for him that term?

they can hardly take the moral high ground now can they.

they can hardly take the moral high ground now can they. what about funding israel and allowing them to continue to carry out genocide and mass murder? how about breaking the geneva convention to go to war without provication? torturing suspected terrorists with no evidence? or causing environmental disaster countless tmes without cleaning up after themselves?

"They can hardly take the moral high ground now, can they"?

* Shell is incorporated in England, joint-headquartered in London, traded on the LSE and its JV partner in the Niger Delta for many years was British Petroleum, and the pollution began under British colonial rule.

You and other English (or at least non-Scots) on this thread seem to be suggesting that the Scots are a bit uppity for not scurrying over to curtsey before the yanks and that we should know our place.

Not at all, I applaud you jocks for not folding under yanky pressure but the fact still stands that the "deal" resulting in a hero's welcome to that murdering bastard is highly regrettable and embarrassing for a nation trying to show it can stand on it's own two feet.

I would not be prepared to take a lecture on justice from a country that has the death penalty [for minors* and the mentally ill] has held people without trial in Gunatanamo Bay, supported the IRA terrorists and is currently trying to extradite someone with Aspergers for spying.
They should get their own house in order before they have the arrogance/stupidity to criticise someone else judical system.
I cannot think why any soverign nation [scotland is over this issue]would turn up in another country to explain their actions and I am certain that the USA would not be doing the same. The statement seems clear to me why they released him

My error the liberated beacon of jurisprudence abolished this in 2005

So it's not the suggestion that the accusation that the release was a stitch-up to get BP back into Libya that upsets you, it's the people who are asking the question?

Other Scots may have a different perspective, but for my part, it's the irritation stemming from the seeming inability on both sides of the Atlantic to be able to differentiate between the Scots and English legal systems, and that any potential deal between BP and Westminster over the prisoner exchange scheme - which the Scottish Parliament rejected - is a completely separate matter from the decision to release Al Megrahi on compassionte grounds because he was confirmed to be terminally ill by one of the foremost oncologists in the world.

Feel free to harangue us for having a legal system that enshrines compassion, accuse us of naivety about the realities of international terrorism, even tell us we're all fat and eat too many deep fried mars bars, but FFS don't keep trying to conflate our processes with allegations of dirty deals done between Westminster and Libya.

but FFS don't keep trying to conflate our processes with allegations of dirty deals done between Westminster and Libya.

Amen to that

Not at all, I applaud you jocks for not folding under yanky pressure but the fact still stands that the "deal" resulting in a hero's welcome to that murdering bastard is highly regrettable and embarrassing for a nation trying to show it can stand on it's own two feet.

I don't find the decision to show compassion particularly "regrettable".
His subsequent welcome home party was. But that was hardly our doing.

And if you don't think this is Scotland getting a bit uppity then kindly explain this phrase you used earlier:

Mel Gibson really does have a lot to answer for.