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But it’s a weird juxtaposition that you should have to know how to behave around horses, but dog owners should control their dogs around you.
Don't get me started on the differing standards applied to their shit either.
Part of me thinks the deference we show to horsists is some sort of ancestral memory of feudalism. Then again its more likely that its just because horses are very big!
For me, it's related to how much trouble those animals cause me. Yes, I am careful around horses. At least where I live, if you encounter a horse on your MTB, it won't be the first time, you'll both be out in the woods somewhere, and you'll both be on your way with very little hassle.
I encounter dogs daily, and have a growing count of the number of times I've had an issue (I've noticed this a lot more now I have small kids). Typically the owner will not care. Several times, I've had the dog owner yell in my face for "doing it wrong". In my opinion, it should not be acceptable to own a pet in a densly-populated area that needs everyone else to modify their behaviour.
I'm also unclear on what people mean when they say I should know how to "handle" other people's dogs. I already give huge concessions, and know enough about body language with dogs to have very few actual problems. How are people who don't have that experience, or are unable to get it for whatever reason, supposed to cope?
Interesting that Aidy and I have very different experiences with horse riders. Not a judgement just I find it interesting.
There's probably a certain amount of confirmation bias.
I have very few issues with other road/trail users generally.
I say hello to everybody. As a group, I have the lowest rate of return from horse riders. Those that do tend to be quite cheery and grateful that people are aware of how to behave considerately around them.
Don’t get me started on the differing standards applied to their shit either.
To be fair, horse shit is mostly hay. No-one ever went to a garden centre to buy a bag of dog shit to fertilise their garden.
I’m not sure that your average shire horse is familiar with the Highway Code.
If a shire horse is loose, unless you're crossing the land they're kept on, it's a mistake. One the owner will be keen to have rectified. Not really comparable to letting a dog loose among other people, or on the road, when you know it's not ready for it.
But it’s a weird juxtaposition that you should have to know how to behave around horses, but dog owners should control their dogs around you.
Now it isn't. Slow down, pass wide or stop, be nice, don't be aggressive, don't approach. Same for both. Being chased by a dog is not that same as stupidly scaring a horse by not being attentive of its needs. Anyway running into a dog on the lead is just as socially out of order as someone running into a horse on the lead, or with a rider onboard. Being respectful for and careful of other trail users does not cover what to do when a dog you don't know is coming at you.
Aye, Horse shit doesn't bother me either tbh, as it's generally the size of a breezeblock, if you rode through one of those, then maybe you need to get the eyes tested!.
Most folk that ride round here are just ordinary folks, not some kind of upper class character from a Jilly Cooper novel type entitled ****.
Now it isn’t. Slow down, pass wide or stop, be nice, don’t be aggressive, don’t approach. Same for both. Being chased by a dog is not that same as stupidly scaring a horse by not being attentive of its needs.
Noone's saying do anything other than that here.
But you're kinda illustrating the point here that if *despite* doing that, the dog chases you, it's the owner at fault, but if the horse spooks regardless of all effort, you somehow didn't try hard enough, and you were "stupid".
Cougar - not the highway code - the scottish access code
Under that its the dog owners responsibility to control their mutt and to not let it bother anyone else
with horses its the cyclists responsibility to not scare the horse
so all I am doing is following the scottish access code
with rights come responsibilities. I do not know why yo are making out horses and dogs are equivalent when its clear from the access code as quoted that they are treated very differently. Yo may think this is wrong in law but its waht the law and code says.
No beer - I hit a frozen horse shit once, that really was like hitting a breeze block
the dog chases you, it’s the owner at fault
Not always. But in the "oh sorry, he doesn't like bikes" situation, where the owner knows the dog chases bikes, the dog should be on the lead, not loose.
if the horse spooks regardless of all effort, you somehow didn’t try hard enough, and you were “stupid”
In the unlikely scenario where the horse is let loose around bikes, and while loose starts to kick out people on bikes, then whoever is responsible for letting that horse loose would be seen to be utterly out of order.
EDIT: just thought of quite a few times where I have had to ride though loose horses, I can see how that would intimate some people just as much as loose dog. They've all been moorland ponies, or going through the land where the horses are kept though.
Don’t get me started on the differing standards applied to their shit either.
One contains substances known to be toxic and cause blindness, and one doesn't?
I try to be careful, cautious and polite around horses and dogs, but as others have said, horses rarely come up to me unattended wanting to be friends or bite me. Therein lies the key difference. Horses are not likely to attack, they are prey animals and bolt when taken by surprise.
Lucky round here to have a great network of tracks and bridleways for riding, which mean we see horses regularly and "should" know how to ride around them, and they are pretty used to us. Though I'm embarrassed to say that a club ride last week did go past a horse and rider too fast and close and the guys quite rightly got a bollocking from the rider.
Luckily when I went round a blind corner too fast yesterday the horse coming the other way was clearly used to idiots.
wrong post!
Cougar – not the highway code – the scottish access code
Ah, apologies. Let me rephrase:
I’m not sure that your average shire horse is familiar with the Scottish Access Code.
I do not know why yo are making out horses and dogs are equivalent
I'm not beyond "they're both animals." Rather I'm contesting your notion that the onus is on non-owners to learn about one but not the other. In one breath you're arguing that you shouldn't have to learn how to deal with someone else's dog, in the next you're talking "of course" about not ringing a bell near a horse. I didn't know that, I thought that announcing your presence behind a horse would be preferable to appearing at its side by surprise.
As MCTD nailed, horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. Which d'you think poses the greater risk?
when its clear from the access code as quoted that they are treated very differently. Yo may think this is wrong in law but its waht the law and code says.
Sorry, I'm not clear. Is it the law or the access code which will stop you getting bitten or stood on?
C'mon man. You can't put one down to the law and call the other victim blaming. You're cherry-picking burden of responsibility.
Barabara Woodhouse had a good solution for dogs that don't like bikes - 7m 50s in:
horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. Which d’you think poses the greater risk?
...kind of depends.
"Oh sorry he doesn't like bikes"
So what does he eat?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-korea-dog-meat-ban-president-moon-jae-in/
In one breath you’re arguing that you shouldn’t have to learn how to deal with someone else’s dog
Did I miss the bit where you told us exactly how to deal with an unknown loose dog coming at you? Especially one that "doesn't like bikes" ?
I rode some DH in Nepal with a guide and he was rather adept at flicking the back end of his bike out in such a way that it pelted stones at the wild dogs taking a bit too much interest. 😳 Some of them are properly scary though.
Cougar - which bit of this are you not understanding?
"under the scots access law and guidance dogs and horses are treated differently"
" the dogs owner has the responsibility to control the dog, the cyclist has responsibility to not frighten the horse"
You’re cherry-picking burden of responsibility.
Nope I am not - the guidance makes it very clear where the responsibility lies. with dogs its the dog owner, with horses the cyclist has responsibilities.
I know to those of you down south this mix of rights and responsibilities we have up here is alien especially when they are qualified rights but thats how it is
I'm sure that'll be a great comfort in hospital when Dobbin was only being friendly.
Your logical fallacy is: false equivalence.
If the logic was inconsistent, no equivalence, false or otherwise, could be drawn.
So 'false equivalence' would imply 'logical consistency'.
In the unlikely scenario where the horse is let loose around bikes, and while loose starts to kick out people on bikes, then whoever is responsible for letting that horse loose would be seen to be utterly out of order.
It's not loose horses. Some horses spook easily, and riders struggle to control them.
More seriously,
You're arguing the letter of the law. If legislation were changed tomorrow so that the picnic-er had responsibility to not frighten (or otherwise antagonise) the dog, would you revise your opinion? Are you only tolerating horses and not tolerating dogs because an access code the rest of the UK has likely never heard of tells you to?
Some horses spook easily, and riders struggle to control them.
Some dogs spook easily, and walkers struggle to control them.
As MCTD nailed, horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. Which d’you think poses the greater risk?
Outside of the mental dogs that psycho people own, probably a horse? They can weigh a literal ton and have potential to cause loads of damage, trample people etc. I appreciate some people may be more worried about getting nipped by dogs. But risk of serious injury, to me? 100% horses pose the greater risk.
Some dogs spook easily, and walkers struggle to control them.
I think we're agreeing though? I'm not having a go at either dog walkers *or* horse riders, or really trying to suggest that one group is better/worse than the other.
I'm just saying it's odd that there's a difference in responsibility expectation.
Are you only tolerating horses and not tolerating dogs because an access code the rest of the UK has likely never heard of tells you to?
1) - I tolerate both - just do what the law and basic morals dictate
2) - - No I understand why the law is like this.
YO have now veered into being very patronising with your attitude towards a well worked out code and a system that works well. Please read up on it if you ever come north of the border
not ringing a bell near a horse. I didn’t know that
<baffled>
But risk of serious injury, to me? 100% horses pose the greater risk.
Risk management is part of my job. You typically have two factors,* likelihood and severity.
The relative severity of the outcome of a horse attack vs a dog attack is arguably very high, yes. I'd probably take on a pissed-off dog over a pissed-off horse. But the likelihood of a horse attack happening in the first place is vanishingly small. I don't recall ever seeing a Dangerous Horses Act hitting Parliament. Nor do I recall many "this horse ran up to me today and ruined my picnic..." STW forum threads.
(* - there's more, I'm simplifying)
Some dogs spook easily, and walkers struggle to control them.
Have them on a lead when exercising them where they come into contact with the public then.
The same goes for young or easily spooked horses.
I think we’re agreeing though?
...
I’m just saying it’s odd that there’s a difference in responsibility expectation.
Which is the point I was getting at too.
We see horses and assume they might be mental. We see dogs and assume they might be mental.
Yet, we see horses and take pains to give them room and to pass really slowly. We see dogs and scream "get your ****ing mutt under control!!"
What's the divisor here? That horses deserve more respect because they are better placed to **** us up?
Have them on a lead when exercising them where they come into contact with the public then.
The same goes for young or easily spooked horses.
Radical idea, it'll never catch on.
What’s the divisor here?
That people aren’t being chased, or even approached, by loose horses down the park or on a byway?
What’s the divisor here?
I see a horse which the rider is doing their best to control using the recommended equipment - I'm aware that there's still a risk and do my best to be considerate. I see a dog, on a lead, with the owner doing their best to avoid the dog creating concern to anyone else - my response is the same.
I see a dog, out of control, with the accepted method of control not in evidence, and an owner who clearly doesn't care if that worries me - my response is to be concerned and to do whatever is necessary to protect myself from an animal of a species which has previously injured me.
But the likelihood of a horse attack happening in the first place is vanishingly small.
What’s the divisor here?
Haven't you just explained it? In my (obviously incredibly representative of everyone, anecdote = data etc.) experience having given both horse riders and dogs + walkers wide, respectful and reasonably paced overtakes, I've only been chased by a dog.
Perhaps a horse is perceived to be relatively predictable unless the person overtaking does something stupid, whereas dogs are perceived to be a total liability unless on a short lead?
What’s the divisor here?
if you spook a horse people including the rider could get killed.
Be careful out there.
Haven’t you just explained it?
I was trying to.
if you spook a horse people including the rider could get killed.
if you spook a dog people including the walker could get killed.
Be careful out there.
He was just being friendly
Perhaps a horse is perceived to be relatively predictable
As someone who used to ride, with a horse mad family (my mother used to be a Pony Club District Commissioner, and my brother trains event horses), this made me laugh. Predictable… ha!
unless the person overtaking does something stupid, whereas dogs are perceived to be a total liability unless on a short lead?
The horses you meet on the trails are on a lead rein, or are being ridden. Unless you are on the land they are grazed on, they are never running free. Dogs are often running free, that is very often absolutely fine. However, those that are not yet trained to recall rather than chase or bother people should be on a lead when there are other people around. It’s not a hard concept. Amazed that it’s even worth debating.
if you spook a horse people including the rider could get killed.
That's all the more reason that horse riders shouldn't take horses out of environments that they can't completely control, though.
I would agree with you - especially given that when I was in the netherlands I met horses that were not spooked by bicycles - but thats not the way the law sees it.
Horse riders ( like dog owners) are liable for any damage caused and most if not all carry insurance.
Damn you! I was just about to ask if they were sausage dogs
If it’s any consolation, that’s better than mine.
I was going to ask if they were bagels.
The quote thing is the wrong way round and it turns out to not be funny on reading back...
You can’t bread a bagel, you can bread a hot dog or a sausage (that’s a corn dog).
I have to fight the urge to not just steer into a growling, snarling dog that is chasing after me on the bike.
Mostly I stop and wait for the owner to try and get control of the dog.
Sometimes though I just keep riding at a speed where the dog can just about keep up, I'm sure they find their way back eventually.