[Closed] Oh FFS, trouble in Ulster again.

I can't help thinking that there may be a bigger picture, that said I can't condone any of it, few things piss me off more than people needlessly killing each other.

Bigger picture?

Squaddies picking up pizzas from a delivery man at the gate get shot dead?

Please, elaborate where the bigger picture is in such a cowardly act?

Are you suggesting perhaps its some sort of British Military plot to stoke up tension in NI in order to get a bigger piece of the budget (as has been suggested by some less than impartial Republican sources)?

Not good! My girlfriend is N Irish.

Will be interesting to see the Sinn Fein reaction to this.

Please elaborate ?

If you need elaboration on that comment then you really have no place talking about NI at all.

............. you really have no place talking about NI at all

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

.

Excluding people's opinions is clearly the way forward in NI.

And so it starts...

Can I be the first (in this thread) to suggest that NI should simply be handed over to the RoI?

Thanks for listening - see you a few posts later on.

since you havent given an opinion, you're hardly being excluded e_l.

Sooty was just pointing out (in his own, special way) that it should be pretty apparent that Sinn Fein's response will be very closely watched for consistency and honesty.

Can I be the first (in this thread) to suggest that NI should simply be handed over to the RoI?

Shall we hand Scotland over to England too? Oh no wait...

I think the difference is Engand doesnt [i]want[/i] Scotland 🙂

I don't think the ROI really wants NI either.

and most northern irish don't want to be part of ireland.

Back to the main topic, sf reaction is absolutely key to see whether anything has really changed.

I've thought of a solution,

give NI to France!

I've thought of a solution,

give NI to France!

i was thinking more along the lines of China.

20yrs down the line these 'freedom fighters' will be pardoned/released under a 'new accord'.

So the cycle of violence begins again.

and most northern irish don't want to be part of ireland.

Bit like Palestine / Israel only a few centuries further on.

Do you think anyone will bite?

Any murder is clearly a tragedy and best avoided but it is a complicated country/situation not easily explained by a few glip lines from either viewpoint.

well despite all the political arguing above human beings got killed and their families must be devastated, lets just dwell on that a moment before continuing to pontificate

Bigger picture?

Squaddies picking up pizzas from a delivery man at the gate get shot dead?

Please, elaborate where the bigger picture is in such a cowardly act?

The bigger picture, as it seems that you're unaware of it, is that the situation has been escalated by the deployment of Armed Forces :-

Yesterday, Sir Hugh Orde, head of the Northern Ireland Police Service, claimed that the security threat from dissident groups is at its highest for the past seven years, prompting the deployment of Army special forces to monitor the radical groups.

If you think that sending in the SA friggin S/other special forces, onto what are supposed to be our own streets isn't likely to stir up unrest, then you're the one with no place to comment on NI.

+1 to what druidh said.

"They haven't gone away you know"

🙁

More needless loss.

I do wonder if Hugh Orde's posturing with the use of the SRR was to blame - or whether this was already an imminent conclusion - regardless I hope those responsible are seen and treated by both sides of the community like the criminals they are rather than beatified as freedom fighters or terrorists.

The armed forces have never left so you can't say this has been escalated by the deployment of them.

Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde said he had asked for some extra support to deal with the threats posed by a small number of what he described as "extremely dangerous people".

"We are talking of a very small number of people who increase my technical capacity," said Sir Hugh.

"They have no operational role, they support my policing operations which are undertaken by my police officers.

This has been building for years, dissidents have not stopped trying to kill soldiers they just haven't been successful until now.

Could argue this justifies deployment of special forces. Just playing devils advocate.

Druidh, I have lived here all my life, I can assure you I do not want to be part of a foreign country. I am proud to be British. That said I have many friends on both sides of the divide, none of which will support this barbaric act.

May these scumbags be brought to account.

The armed forces have never left so you can't say this has been escalated by the deployment of them.

This isn't just armed forces, this is a specific deployment of special forces. That is significantly different.

Could argue this justifies deployment of special forces. Just playing devils advocate.

It could only just justify it if the aim was to increase tension.

Stoner - Member

since you havent given an opinion, you're hardly being excluded e_l.

Well according to Sooty I "have no place talking about NI at all".

So since I can't talk about NI, how exactly would you suggest that I express my opinions about NI - by pumping a bullet into someone's head ?

Sooty was just pointing out (in his own, special way) that it should be pretty apparent that Sinn Fein's response will be very closely watched for consistency and honesty.

Does Sooty not understand the meaning of the word "dissident" then ?

Are you suggesting perhaps its some sort of British Military plot to stoke up tension in NI

Who's to say it isn't?

Nutt din't for a moment suggest it was part of some 'plot'; where'd you get that idea from?

Personally, I can't see what would be gained by stirring up trouble; but I woon't put owt past the British Government any more. Check out it's track record...

Likewise, I can't see how the Republican cause, which has been legitimised and accepted after decades of struggle, would benefit from such extreme actions either.

But we need to be able to see things at a much closer level; had troops been harassing/abusing locals recently? Was it the actions of a few deluded, misguided young thugs? I woon't have thought such an act would have any direct link to any Republican political aims, as this clearly solved bugger all, previously. Is it another group wanting to be heard, but cannot find voice due to others preventing them from doing so?

Whatever, it does seem to be a backward step. and I've no doubt it will lead for increased problems for ordinary people, just trying to go about their daily lives. So maybe those that carried out this attack have only made things worse.

Or was that part of the plan...?

The keek people talk on here is amazing. How could you abuse locals from the barracks at Masserene? Its nowhere near Rathenraw where this scumbags more than likely came from. A few nisguided youths hardly had access to automatic weapons?

You are on the wrong side of clueless!

Well, I don't know. I was just trying to offer an explanation, rather than condemning one side or another.

Do squaddies not venture outside the barracks, ever? I don't know. I've heard accounts from people in NI, about how troops would routinely harass them, point loaded weapons at them, etc. Behaviour which creates fear, distrust and hate. I don't know if that still goes on. We are told that the troops are there merely in a 'peacekeeping' role, to support the police there. But few of us outside of such places will have much idea of the reality. I'm merely suggesting possibilities, before you jump down my throat.

A few nisguided youths hardly had access to automatic weapons?

There's kids near where I live, have access to automatic weapons. and that's in London! Don't be so naive. NI is awash with guns. Or did they all magically disappear, when things calmed down?

So come on, expert; what's your take on this?

LOL, of course the guns did'nt disappear London is a ficking hole full of gangs and knife crime, wouldnt fancy living there

So, having now contradicted yourself, what's your expert analysis on this situation?

There's kids near where I live, have access to automatic weapons. and that's in London! Don't be so naive.

Are you really suggesting this was done by some bored kids?

I have no expert analysis, as I am not an expert. I just hope that they get the people responsible and bring them before the courts.

My thoughts and prayers are with the deceased and their families.

JoeBones - do you actually live in London? I don't see how you can have an opinion if not. 😉

Ha ha Colin

Reflecting on this further today - I think the big test to be faced is whether SF are willing to face up to their responsibility to the community as a whole to come forward and denounce publicly these horrific attacks and call for the republican community to identify and hand over those responsible to the police so that they can be prosecuted.

If not, then I fear we could well see a cycle of tit for tat attacks and we descend back down the drain to the old days again.

As has clearly been said before on here - the only answer in NI has to come from the communities who live there coming to an understanding - suggestions like handing it over to ROI are unhelpful in the extreme and entirely miss the point about the source of the unrest there.

Several people I know from the region have recently commented that the current financial unrest would result in something like this happening 🙁

Interesting to consider that the Pizza delivery boys injured were more than likely from an Eastern European country - my thoughts can only go out to the families of the two lads tragically lost while tied up in someone else's endless games of hate and politics

Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams described the shooting as an attack on the "peace process" and said it was "wrong and counter-productive".

"Those responsible have no support, no strategy to achieve a United Ireland," he said.

"Their intention is to bring British soldiers back onto the streets. They want to destroy the progress of recent times and to plunge Ireland back into conflict."

Is that you happy then S&J?

according to the bbc, this shooting was the latest in a series of attempts to shoot british soldiers in the last year, the correspondent they had on news 24 last night reckoned it was only luck up till now thats stopped it happening before
[i]In February 2009, a 250lb (114kg) bomb was defused close to an Army base in South Down. It was clear republican dissidents were stepping up their campaign. [/i]
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930924.stm ]link[/url]

[i]There have been more than 15 attacks by republican terrorist groups since November including shootings, booby-trap bombs, landmines and the attempted Ballykinler attack. [/i]
[url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5864941.ece ]times[/url]

also said that this shooting would have required weeks of planning well before the announcement of special forces being in NI

also said that this shooting would have required weeks of planning well before the announcement of special forces being in NI

As would the deployment of special forces required weeks of planning. Any subsequent holes in security could have alerted the paramilitaries some time ago.

All just goes round in circles doesn't it.

Are you really suggesting this was done by some bored kids?

No, but somehow, I doubt it was the work of reasonable, intelligent, enlightened souls who are able to address the issues in more peaceful ways.

More like, angry, embittered, dissafected, ignorant, misguided idiots.

Same as most people who think it's a good idea to take Human Life, to achieve a political aim.

All decent, intelligent people in NI know and agree, that violence is not the way forward.

Acts like this are not carried out by those who want Peace. They are carried out by those who feel so impotent, they foolishly think doing something like this gives them some balls.

Not unlike inner-city gang violence in a place like London.

It's a 'turf war'. Anyone who tries to use 'politics' to in some way justify or legitimise the use of violence, in a time when so much has been done, by so many, to try and achieve a lasting peace, is an enemy of the very peace that ordinary folk want and deserve.

My thoughts are with the families of the two young men murdered.

I can't quite believe some of the posts on this topic and those of you who are suggesting that this crime was somehow justified even just slightly should be ashamed of yourselves.

If peace is to last in NI then anyone who knows anything about these attacks needs to step up and speak to either the PSNI or the Garda to make sure these criminals are brought to justice asap.

There is no reason why in these enlightened times there needs to be any armed struggle. Both NI & ROI can exist as peaceful democracies within the EU where the rule of law and politcial process should be supported and encouraged.

Rudeboy, kindly just shut the f*** up. You obviously haven't the first clue what you are talking about, it's embarrassing and annoying, I don't understand why you feel the need to comment on something you don't understand.

The situation in NI is much more complicated than the vast majority of you understand, judging by your posts.

You obviously haven't the first clue what you are talking about

Of course not.

And you obviously do, because...?

So, come on, Professor; what have I said, that is soooooo wide of the mark?

I am well aware of NI's very complex and violent history. I do not profess, however, to be any kind of expert, and have not offered an opinion as such.

However, it seems that you would rather that I, or indeed anyone who offers an opinion contrary to your own, 'shut the f-up', according to your posts.

That's enlightened.

RudeBoy

And you obviously do, because...?

Lived in Ulster all my life, good enough for you? Relatives in high places in certain security forces good enough for you? Even so I am only enlightened enough to understand that I understand very little. If as I suspect, the nine o clock news is your is your only frame of reference to 'the troubles' then you know NOTHING.

It's utterly pointless to do anything other than express condolences for the dead - beyond that you're just embarrassing yourself.

I'm confused. What have I actually said, that has aroused you so much?

I've actually tried to offer different explanations, and have given my opinions. Why shoont I?

Now, I might not live in NI, but I'm British. As I pointed out on another thread, actions of Republican 'activists' have affected me, in my own home town. The Canary Wharf bomb was one of the biggest on the British Mainland. Innocent people, with no involvement in the politics of NI, were killed and injured. Friends of mine, who lived very close to the actual site, were very shaken up. We helped an elderly Bangladeshi man, who was absolutely terrified, to clear up broken glass from his flat.

That's a real experience, of the consequences of the actions of a group in conflict with the British Government.

An experience which I'll never forget.

I'm not trying to apportion blame, other than to say that such actions do not lead to peace; they merely serve to exacerbate and perpetuate the state of fear, hatred and aggression. and to keep people divided, not bring them together.

I am opposed to any actions like this.

As I've pointed out, I am open to the idea that this was in fact a military conspiracy, as well as possibly being the work of screwed up, angry young men. And all sorts of possibilities in between. I'm not saying it's one or the other.

Whoever did this, are murderers, in anyone's book. And I do see a parallel, with disaffected, angry people in NI, and young people in urban areas of London and other big cities. Very often, violence is as a result of people feeling unempowered, and fearful of others.

But I don't know the full story. I've come on here, posted my thoughts on things, expecting a response, and hpeto gain more understanding of such a terrible event.

All you've done is told me to 'shut the **** up'. You, who by your own admission, probbly know more than me.

So why aren't you pointing out where I may have got it wrong?

How do you expect people to 'understand', if you don't use your own knowledge and experience, to enlighten others?

FWIW, I've had several Irish friends, from all over, and both sides of the 'divide'. I've tried to listen to them, and understand the problems, and admit it is bewildering.

As for commenting, I take it you will no longer be commenting on stuff you know little about, then?