Not putting the heating on - how's it going...?

“Crucially you need a high surface area to volume ratio”

Erm… like with an Ice cube tray? Which divides am already small body of water into about 16 even smaller bodies of water?

That would depend on the ice cube tray, they usually have a lot of surface area underneath them, and to achieve the effect you're referring to you need surface area for evaporation, not conduction.

I tried following that ‘fix’ in the video but no luck

Same, I just tried it but it didn’t cure the draft. I can however see that the guide for it on the frame has ovalised screw holes, with the screws centralised. Rather than stand with the door open now I’ll wait 48hrs for the temps to rise (South East) then loosen all of those and slide the guides inward to see if that helps.

@squirrelking yeah I'm working out what to do but I'll do it fast. I bought a CO alarm in the meantime.

I heard it as *born and *bred, thick in head and sh*t in bed. So even more modifications.

Blimey just looked at my Edf app for the first time. Av for last Jan £6.66pd, av for Dec so far £16pd plus about £6-8pd in smokeless fuel. I'm going to have to start giving up on life.

@molgrips if you have a nearby drain just tie it into that and cap the old line. As long as its on the smelly side after the trap it's safe. You can get a 22mm to 44mm boss from McAlpine, that's how I tied mine in.

Update on my first night sleep using the 600g Devon wool duvet I bought yesterday.

Room temp last night was 8c and the duvet was able to keep me comfortable. I cannot say that it gave me instant warm but it was alright. Not too cold or warm but I prefer it to be warmer. My left foot was very cold (poor blood circulation I guess) but it was fine after one or two hours.

Well, I shall give a few more nights to see how it goes. I just checked the label again and it is a super king size 600g instead of king size, but not sure why it manages to fit king size duvet cover.

Oh well as long as it last and keep me alive I am happy with it.

@squirrelking that's the easy part; the hard bit is routing the pipe behind the cupboard without having to remove the whole kitchen!

On a Smart heating note I'm a big fan, mostly as I can just turn it off/on from my phone if I work late or stay out one evening, I've had Tado and now Google nest systems

But for all the data it generates I bloody hate the limited amount they actually share back with you

E.g. this time last year my house didn't have a stitch of insulation in the loft, I've put 300mm down over the summer but temp to temp I've no idea what difference it's made, and if, say what happens if I cover the front door for a few days to see if it's drafty as, I get I'm living in a leaky old Victorian terrace and it's far from an exact science (wind direction, speed etc) but at least with some decent data you could learn a bit and make improvements where needed most. It's crap.

@chewkw,you'll need to bathe in this,

normal cylindrical insulation won’t fit.
Any ideas?

@mudfish

I've used wrap round silvered bubble wrap pipe insulation where gaps are all wrong or some pipe joins where chamfering the silver foam tubes doesn't work. The packet says it meets pipe insulation standards. It is a bit of a pain coiling it round and round though.
Like this from Toolstation but also Screwfix and most other DIY or plumbing shops:
https://www.toolstation.com/ybs-thermawrap-spiral-pipe-wrap/p42791

I reckon I'm now getting 25% more heat out of my boiler after all this.

I cut a load of little chunks of pipe insulation for my airing cupboard and taped them in place, then any bits that were too fiddly I used that bubble wrap strip as above. It looks like shit but it made a big difference in leaked heat and was especially useful keeping temps down in the summer.

Earlier on I saw a video that had clips that went around the pipe insulation and held that instead of the actual pipe itself, so the insulation could be uninterrupted. If you removed the existing clips is there enough give to move the pipe slightly away from the wall enough to do something like that?

I've had a quick look back and I can't find which video it was now, sorry. Was it a CondensatePro product though? Maybe...

Thanks for insulation tips. I’ll try the ‘silvered bubble wrap’ Toolstation wrap first.
Yes Phiiil I saw those clamps too somewhere
[ https://www.rockwool.com/uk/products-and-applications/product-overview/hvac/rocklap-pipe-supports/ ].
I don’t think my pipes can move that much though.
For now, covering the metres of exposed pipe between the clamps must help.
That wrap stuff is claimed to be as good as 35mm of rock wool. I’m sure the tubular foam stuff, especially the more expensive variety would be better but the wrap will be a first step.
One pal wanted me to use spray foam but in case of a leak that may be problematic.

Woken up to no snow and 11 degrees (London). Hallelujah.

Just come home last night from being away this weekend. We set the heating to come on for an hour in the morning and in the evening. New record low of 10.4 in my office over the weekend. This morning it is 11.5 outside and it was only 12 inside. Even now with the heating on for an hour it is not climbing much. Beginning to wonder if there is an issue with the house other than the leaking garage...

It’s all about thermal mass of your house.

It takes a lot of energy to change the temperature of such a large structure and having the heating on for an hour is going to make little difference.

Yeah I've switched to continuous heating and just knock the temperature back at night and during the day. But then, I'm home all day.

It takes a while to heat the house from cold if I turn the flow temp down. Kinda hard to tell if it's more efficient without decent instrumentation though.

re lagging pipework, apart the fit being tight is there any need to use anything other than foam tubes that you'd usually find in B&Q?

It’s all about thermal mass of your house.

Yep, I think once the fabric of the house has warmed up it's easier to keep it there.

Not heating the house until later in the year plus going almost straight into a very cold spell has made it harder to get the house up to a comfortable base temperature.
This mild weather will help.

Re: the perennial 'leave it on low all the time' vs 'fire it up just when you need it debate'. Has anyone ever reached an absolute conclusion on this - other than 'it depends'?

I usually get a bit bored with all the inevitable squabbling on here before the final reveal so probably miss out on any really useful conclusions.

<edit>

Not heating the house until later in the year plus going almost straight into a very cold spell has made it harder to get the house up to a comfortable base temperature

That's what we've found. We usually start end Oct/beginning of November and put that back nearly a month this year plus it's on for less time/1°C lower and it's been very cold (and damp) regardless of the cold snap.

Isn’t it more, temperature controlled rather than time?

Ie mine thermostat is set to 16deg between 9pm and 7am. It rarely drops that low but would fire if need be.

18 deg from 7am to 9pm.

So it’s ON all the time but heating for a fraction of that.

Isn’t it more, temperature controlled rather than time?

@Jambo I think one school of thought is it's 'on' 24/7 but at (say) 14°C (or whatever) vs timed at ~17°C (or whatever). I think Jambo's example is the latter which is what we do.

Has anyone ever reached an absolute conclusion on this – other than ‘it depends’?

It does depend though. Some households yes, others no.

In my case, I discovered through measuring temps that to get the house up to temp fast enough after being off all day required the flow temp to be set high, which means inefficient boiler temps because we don't have enough rads to shift that much heat, so it ended up back at the boiler. If I turned the temps down it took ages to heat up, and the boiler also ended up short cycling. But on the other hand, less heat is lost to the outside. Is it more efficient? I don't know, I didn't do a controlled experiment in the recent fairly consistent temps, I was too busy trying to fix the shonky system. However I have found that if the heating is off for long periods in the cold weather then it's not just the air that gets cold, everything in the house gets cold too - floors, furniture, walls, the lot - and even when the thermostat goes off the place still feels cold. So when the heating is on all the time with setback temperatures a couple of degrees behind the peak, the peak temp can be much lower for the same degree of comfort.

I usually get a bit bored with all the inevitable squabbling on here before the final reveal so probably miss out on any really useful conclusions.

You just have to do your own experiments. Make changes, take a meter reading every day if you don't have a smart meter.

Re: the perennial ‘leave it on low all the time’ vs ‘fire it up just when you need it debate’. Has anyone ever reached an absolute conclusion on this – other than ‘it depends’?

Have it on 24/7 but use the thermostat to regulate the temperature for when you need it the most.

So for me its 18-20c for the room in in.
~13-15c for the rooms in not in
10c overnight

As Jambo says, once at a temperature the heatings rarely on. Its just keeping it topped up.

Trying to heat the whole house up from 12c in an hour wont work, as its going to take a huge amount of energy to heat your house up 1c.

After being sceptical, having a smart meter fitted was the best thing i've ever done.
It allows you to play around with things and have the information available for what you have consumed.

No easy way to acurately measure consumption here as we're on oil. I can estimate to a couple 8f hundred litres but the potential error rate is high and might disguise/isn't granular enough to see what's really going on.

You could rig something up that listens for boiler noise using a Raspberry Pi or something if you really wanted to. There are lots of 'maker' people doing similar who don't have smart meters, apparently.

Re thermal mass - our Victorian Industrial building house lags ambients by 2days - noticeably warmer outside than indoors.

Re the pipe clamps above - Caddy clamps will be cheaper from here;
I use them for cryogenic piping.

https://www.valvestubesfittings.com/caddy-macrofix-epdm-rubber-lined-steel-pipe-clip-dn25

I read somewhere (Wiser website/forums or perhaps elsewhere) that recommended minimum temperature ideally shouldn't be more than 3c below your 'comfort' temperature.

I've followed this since having Wiser installed - my rooms are set to heat up to 18-19c, but not to drop below 15c. Has generally worked well, apart from the coldest snaps where the kitchen (undersized radiator for the space) and bathroom (towel rail only, and the one zone without TRV as directed) struggle.

No easy way to acurately measure consumption here as we’re on oil.

fit an inline flow meter....

You could rig something up that listens for boiler noise using a Raspberry Pi or something if you really wanted

One way is to detect the flame or power to the pump.

fit an inline flow meter….

There are cheaper ways I think but it's a definite option.

I did what's been mentioned above, but with an Arduino. I measured the time the boiler was on with a microphone. It displayed how long it was on for each 24 hours. You should be able to find what jet is in your boiler, and from that a flow rate per minute, hence how much oil has been used. It agreed with my measurement from the sight glass before and after adding a known amount of oil.

But a pain compared to a smart meter .

Aye. I suspect this is one of those 'spend a fortune fitting measuring kit to save £50' situations...

You stand to save a fair bit more than the cost of a Pi and a mic with prices as high as they are, I reckon.

Earlier on I saw a video that had clips that went around the pipe insulation and held that instead of the actual pipe itself, so the insulation could be uninterrupted. If you removed the existing clips is there enough give to move the pipe slightly away from the wall enough to do something like that?

I wouldn't worry too much about it, covering 95% of the pipe in insulation is still going to save you very close to 95% of the heat loss.

On a Smart heating note I’m a big fan, mostly as I can just turn it off/on from my phone if I work late or stay out one evening, I’ve had Tado and now Google nest systems

But for all the data it generates I bloody hate the limited amount they actually share back with you

You stand to save a fair bit more than the cost of a Pi and a mic with prices as high as they are, I reckon.

That's right, if it wasn't for the failed attempts using different microphones that didn't work, and the switch that I couldn't fit to anything suitable, and the hours of my time writing the software.

Practically nothing really!

That’s right, if it wasn’t for the failed attempts using different microphones that didn’t work, and the switch that I couldn’t fit to anything suitable, and the hours of my time writing the software.

Practically nothing really!

Where do I send my £10? I have zero knowledge of and zero interest in farting around with fruit based computing.

All for saving £££'s but baulk at becoming a nerd to do so 🤣

I pooh poohed the idea of a smart thermostat butnow I think it would be handy to have for weather/humidity compensation.

I did what’s been mentioned above, but with an Arduino. I measured the time the boiler was on with a microphone. It displayed how long it was on for each 24 hours. You should be able to find what jet is in your boiler, and from that a flow rate per minute, hence how much oil has been used. It agreed with my measurement from the sight glass before and after adding a known amount of oil.

That sounds like exactly what ive considered doing - dont suppose youved open sourced it on Github or anything? <batts eyelids ingeek>

Hi Ewan,

Not on Github but happy to send you a copy, but I'm not a software engineer so don't assume the software is any good! I've just looked at it and I have put a few comments in it, so should be fairly understandable, and it uses a standard library to drive the OLED.

Scratch. I believe there are variances in the insulating ability of “foam” tubing.
I used that silver face bubble wrap 50mm wide strip stuff - it claims to be as efficient at preventing heat loss as 35mm of rock wool.
In testing though (is it stupid to expect a non contact thermometer to be accurate? IR / laser beam type) the outer if a lagged pipe is only measuring at most 2 degrees lower temp than a bare pipe.
Maybe that type of temperature sensor is flawed on a silvered surface? Or on a copper pipe.

Almost half done now, but a bit disappointed on the result (measured non-contact). Room warmth will be a better test. I’ll report back. That unoccupied room with the pipes was getting pretty warm.

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You know that foil bubble wrap relys on an air gap to provide the quoted r value equivalency right ,?

You know that foil bubble wrap relys on an air gap to provide the quoted r value equivalency right ,?

That's exactly what I was going to post. That wrap is way too tight.

It's amazing how much difference the weather makes. It was 13C yesterday here and the heating was hardly on at all. Now it's 9C and it came on in the morning and hasn't been on since. At 13C the differential between the thermostat and outdoor temps is 4C, at -3C it's 20C, so five times the heat loss resulting in 5x the heating requirement from the boiler even without the heat added from occupants and appliances.

I think adjusting this is where a smart thermostat (even without TRVs) would make a significant difference.

is it stupid to expect a non contact thermometer to be accurate? IR / laser beam type

My cheapo eBay IR thermometer is pretty inaccurate in certain instances. It seems to under-read at times, compared with the thermocouple one, but it doesn't really work at all on pipes. Shiny surfaces seem to completely confuse it, but it's also got a fairly wide spread so you cannot measure a pipe without getting the surroundings in as well. The spread is specified on the side of the device to give you an idea.