[Closed] Not having children

2. My youngest then swallows a pound coin, several hours at A&E

"How is he?"

"Oh, no change."

Ha. I went to A&E for:

1. Knocked myself unconscious falling off a coal shed
2. slit my hand and leg wide open falling off a building.
3. Stuck a dried pea up my nostril that became stuck.
4. Broken wrists
5. Broken arms

All before I was even 10.

I hope you chastised your parents at length for not taking you to the minor injuries unit.

Binners, you have two girls, fancy a boy?

No thanks. I look at people with lads and wonder how the hell they cope. The noise, the constant chaos, bordering on complete anarchy. Just the stupidity! Girls are just so much gentler and more civilised

Of course, come hormonal time, it'll be payback time, as my life becomes a misery, while people with lads watch their life get considerably easier

Just enjoying it while I can

Did you get your pound back?

@Cougar

"Exactly"

😉

1. Knocked myself unconscious falling off a coal shed
2. slit my hand and leg wide open falling off a building.
3. Stuck a dried pea up my nostril that became stuck.
4. Broken wrists
5. Broken arms

4 broken wrists and 5 broken arms..!?

Are you sure that you're Hora and not Shiva..?

[i]The government is cracking down on taking kids out of school (which I can understand), but not doing anything to help, like staggering the term dates around the country, like they do in France. [/i]

France has staggered term dates? When/Where as everything shuts in August.

4 broken wrists and 5 broken arms..!?

Are you sure that you're Hora and not Shiva..?

Coffee / keyboard.

You could just as well say that parents couldn't possibly know what their lives would have been like if they hadn't had kids, and all their preconceptions about that are probably wrong. But no-one would bother saying that, because it's a bit unnecessary, patronising and presumptuous.

So parents have never experienced life without kids? I can see a slight defect in that logic.

So parents have never experienced life without kids? I can see a slight defect in that logic.

That isn't what I said, fairly obviously.

I don't see much preaching.

I see people saying that you don't know what having kids is really like til you've had them (which is reasonable and true for a lot of things) and then also saying that for them, it's great.

I think the non-breeders are so used to being on the defensive (and entirely understandably) that they think they are being preached at, which may again be a reasonable assumption based on previous experience.

I don't think it's happening on this thread tho.

UrbanHiker - Member

anothergit - really? You're one of the very few to feel/admit that.

I think "admit" is the key word. Friends of mine regret theirs- or at least, they regret not waiting. But they've stopped telling people that because so many people respond as if they're axe murderers. Sure most people are glad they had kids but the social pressure is pretty major too. (she said it once at a toddler group- half the other mums agreed, then it devolved into open warfare and now there's 2 toddler groups)

They were nervous all the way through the pregnancy, and people kept saying "Once he arrives, everything will change" as if that was good news. Who's so unhappy that they want everything to change? If you are, why are you having kids?

Personally I can't be trusted with a goldfish let alone a human, but it's a moot point since I'm yet to trick a girl into liking me enough 😉

That isn't what I said, fairly obviously.

This is what you said:

You could just as well say that parents couldn't possibly know what their lives would have been like if they hadn't had kids, and all their preconceptions about that are probably wrong.

..and it's quite obviously ridiculous. I've spent the majority of my adult life sans-children and have a pretty good idea what it was like and how it would probably be now if I didn't.

Thread summary:
Some people have balanced views and accept others are different to them
Some people think kids should be bio-fuel
Some people think if you don't have kids you're missing out or you are fighting nature or just plain wrong
It is descending into the usual bollocks on stw

..and it's quite obviously ridiculous. I've spent the majority of my adult life sans-children and have a pretty good idea what it was like and how it would probably be now if I didn't.

You don't know exactly what your life would be like now if you hadn't had kids is what I said.

Again, can you really not see how this is a teensy bit patronising:

So whatever your pre-conceptions, ignore them because they're probably wrong.

Whilst I see the reason for your annoyance, he's still right.

I've spent the majority of my adult life sans-children and have a pretty good idea what it was like and how it would probably be now if I didn't.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. My life is significantly different now that I'm in my late 30s than it was when I was in my 20s despite the fact that I don't have kids.

hora - Member

fancy a boy?

Well, that's one way to reduce the chance of having kids.

Ok, going back to the original comment that caused so much upset (which was not mine by the way):

You have no idea the special relationship your missing.

Yes, this comes across as a tad preachy and patronising, and it's not something I would or have ever said to someone who doesn't have kids. However, as a basic statement of fact, and backed up by my own experiences, it's pretty much correct. The change that occurs is so fundamental that you can't possibly know what it's like until it happens, hence my advice that you should probably ignore any pre-conceptions. What this isn't however is any type of campaign to persuade you to have kids, certainly not on my or most other parents part anyway, so you should stop being so defensive about it.

Yes, this comes across as a tad preachy and patronising, and it's not something I would or have ever said to someone who doesn't have kids.

Well, except... you know... just then.

Mate of mine bought a people carrier 2 months before had his first in Jan this year.

No need.

You have no idea the special relationship your missing.

You have no idea of the awesome back country powder snow you're missing out on. Not that I would ever say that to someone with kids of course.

But then we all know snowboarding is an incredibly shallow, selfish activity compared to fulfilling your primal breeding instincts (or rather being pussy-whipped into it because if your wife's). 😉

I'm 33 and don't have kids and there doesn't look to be any on the horizon either. I'd give up riding/whatever else to have one but my inability to have a stable relationship combined with quite serious depression wouldn't and isn't the ideal situation to bring a kid into the world. My parents divorced and whilst I know it's not uncommon in this day and age, I always picture meeting someone I can't stand to be without and having a baby with them, just as much a bond between myself and the mother as myself and the baby.

It upsets me greatly, I'm a sucker for a baby and coo with the best of them and it's something I think about a lot.

I don't resent parents telling me how great they are and I also understand the non-breeders not wanting to compromise on their lifestyle or simply not liking kids. I can pretty much buy any bike I want, go where I want and do what I want but I'd gladly give it up to have a little one

But then we all know snowboarding is an incredibly shallow, selfish activity compared to fulfilling your primal breeding instincts (or rather being pussy-whipped into it because if your wife's).

Shallower? Hmmm...possibly. But jeez, don't people go on about it. As for "selfish", that possibly suits those who choose not to breed. 🙂

Well, except... you know... just then.

That's why he said 'would have'

Would 'solipsistic' be a more appropriate word than 'selfish' ?

or rather being pussy-whipped into it because if your wife's

And you accuse me of being patronising and arrogant? Honestly, you need to get over yourself.

And you accuse me of being patronising and arrogant? Honestly you guys need to get over yourself.

Well it was kind of meant as a joke - but also making the point that if you start making sweeping generalisations about people you don't know, you might not like where it ends up.

Get over yourself?

There was a guy who posted earlier who has adopted/fostered kids - you're saying you have a special bond with your kids that he will never understand. Biologically speaking that might be true but is it really something to crow about?

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Love it when you did in to a a mega thread to see what's going on - then after you've read it you get the thought - 'ooh i'll think i'll just leave them to it and metaphorically creep out and shut the door quietly behind me'

Biologically speaking that might be true but is it really something to crow about?

Talking. Not crowing, not preaching, just talking. I think on an internet forum thread about having babies you can expect to have some people talk about just that. Sadly there's always a few who'd rather have an argument.

Lol @ adjustable wench.

The big hitters on the other hand metaphorically start screaming and run into the room swinging their fists 🙂

dazh, have you ever considered that the way you think you come across and the way that you actually do come across are not the same?

Talking. Not crowing, not preaching, just talking. I think on an internet forum thread about having babies you can expect to have some people talk about just that. Sadly there's always a few who'd rather have an argument.

Telling people 'you're wrong' then complaining about them not liking it is a bit rich TBH.

Just scanned through this.

don't have a gaping void in my life/relationship that needs filling'

I can understand why people want kids, and why people don't. What I don't understand is why you're bothered what the rest of the world thinks about what is one of the major life-changing decisions you'll ever make. (Nearly as bad as those imbeciles who are so desperate to be famous they appear on "one born every minute" sharing their most intimate moment with the rest of the world)

For the record, I've always wanted kids. Was a bit gutted when it turned out we needed a lot of time and treatment to get us there. Even more frustrating when you see how easy it is for people who don't want them 🙁

Worth every second IME. But as I said, each to his own.

I quoted from Kahil Gibran to subtly make a point (now more directly):

Having children is not about you. It is not about what you want, or don't want. It is expression of "life's longing for itself".

Saying it is selfish for others to have/not-have children is the sound of resentment.

All that piss. late nights and a constant smell of vomit.

Not ideal conditions to bring up a kid. So no.

Let's say I really, really loved stamp collecting and you thought it sounded like a complete waste of time and energy you could be spending on the bike.

If I was to say to you "You've no idea what you're missing in the wonderful world of philately" you might say "bollocks. I've seen your stamps and they do nothing for me." And I'd probably say something like "horses for courses" and we'd probably leave it at that.

I can't understand why it's so difficult for some people to understand that it's the same with kids, just a matter of personal preference.

I can't understand why it's so difficult for some people to understand that it's the same with kids

It's really not. The point the parents are trying to make is that having kids is on a different level to pretty much anything else you may choose to do.

I'm not saying it's the best thing ever, or that you should all do it (in fact, you shouldn't, for a number of excellent reasons) but it is true that if you haven't had kids you can't fully understand what it's like to have kids.

I can't understand why it's so difficult for some people to understand that it's the same with kids, just a matter of personal preference.

OK, I'm pretty obsessed with Fell Running and bicycle ownership. I wake up, it's what Im thinking about. I take the first of my 2-3 dumps a day, its what I'm thinking about. I have lunch, its what Im thinking about.

I stop to have a chat with a colleague..... its not what Im talking about.

Why, because the person Im talking to probably isn't interested. And running/bikes only enters the conversation if brought into the conversation by the colleague.

What you are complaing about isn't parents, it's boring people.

I've been bored by many people on many subjects, not just kids.

And I don't talk to people about my kids either unless they ask.. unless it's particularly funny and I know there are other parents.

Well, they where interesting before they had kids.

Probably just a coincidence.

Whereas the Fell Running bores weren't. 🙂

😉

Ha ha, god they can be dull.

I was subjected to an inordinately long one way conversation about shoes a couple of days ago. No idea what he was going on about, I just blocked it out and carried on running.

I'm pretty boring in person and online, less boring in what I'm saying.

More in a Father Paul Stone fashion and not saying much.

The change that occurs is so fundamental that you can't possibly know what it's like until it happens

It's easy to spot though. Previously sane individuals become irrational, vague, self-obsessed and retreat into an insular world revolving around an object that is treated like a demi-god. It's a baby, not the second coming FFS.
Becoming a parent doesn't have to automatically mean a change for the worse but for some people they can't resist.

Becoming a parent doesn't have to automatically mean a change for the worse but for some people they can't resist.

I don't know if your insights show whether you're a parent or not, but my theory is that the ones that turn bad have usually just discovered, as the vicious onslaught of extreme noise terror, exhaustion and sleep deprivation is beginning to subside, that their choice of breeding partner was perhaps a tad hasty..
They have suddenly found themselves in an irreversible lifelong pact, more real than anything else on earth, signed in blood and shit and tears and witnessed by the heavenly host, and are wondering if perhaps someone else might have been a bit more compatible..

The yawning chasm of hopelessness and inescapable failure that has just opened up before them needs to be filled with something, and luckily there's an utterly captivating brand new creation wriggling in their arms that seems to fit the bill..

Just a little spark of positivity there to help y'all on your way on this fine clear sunny morning..
I'm off to take the rugrats down the seaside.. 😀

It's really not. The point the parents are trying to make is that having kids is on a different level to pretty much anything else [s]you they may choose to do[/s] they have done.

FTFY. And this is a problem why? Generally, if the subject comes up, a parent might say something like this because for them it might happen to be true. Would you prefer them to be dishonest? I could understand your ire if someone just marched up to you and declared their new found insight but in my experience that just doesn't happen. It never happened to me in the years I wasn't a parent, and it's never happened since. The way some of you talk about it you'd think there was some sort of conspiracy between parents to belittle the childless. There isn't.

Would you prefer them to be dishonest

Yes

if someone just marched up to you and declared their new found insight but in my experience that just doesn't happen

It's happened to me on many occasions.

You don't know exactly what your life would be like now if you hadn't had kids is what I said.

It'd be pretty similar to how my life was 2 years ago. I think us parents do have a pretty good idea of what we're missing - sleep, time and money, mostly.

Anyway, kids are horrid. Except mine. 😀

The way some of you talk about it you'd think there was some sort of conspiracy between parents to belittle the childless. There isn't.

I think all we're asking for is a teensy bit of perspective. Some kind of realisation that while it may feel like it should, the world doesn't [i]actually[/i] revolve around your offspring.

It seems to completely go out of the window for many people with kids.

My wife and I now tell people we are biologically unable to have children simply because them we get sympathy rather than the usual lack of comnprehension from friends or family who have kids.

Whatever our reasons not to have children and they aren't going on a public forum it is true that many parents seem to become preachy condescending child obsessives who just can't grasp why we don't want children. I don't care whether they have kids, why should they get so wound up that I don't want to?

Childless mid 30's person off for a nice impromptu walk with the wife then a pub lunch, before evening ride and a few beers.

It seems to completely go out of the window for many people with kids.

As does it for many without.

My wife and I now tell people we are biologically unable to have children simply because them we get sympathy rather than the usual lack of comnprehension from friends or family who have kids.

A bit disingenuous don't you think? I imagine that telling folk you were unable to have children would imply that you'd tried. It can be pretty devastating for people who try and can't so that's why you'd have my sympathy if you told me that. Just be honest with people.

I think all we're asking for

Are you serious grum..?

You're asking for people to sensor what they talk about because they have made a different lifestyle choice to you and you don't want to hear about it..?
'Aaaah ok, you wish to converse with me, but as long as I don't mention the one thing that inexorably effects my life in every aspect from the moment that I wake to the moment that I fall asleep..'

You seem to be looking for a cause to fill the void that childlessness has obviously left you with, and I hate to break it to you, but I think that you're trying to invent perhaps one of the daftest sounding human rights movements ever..

many parents seem to become preachy condescending child obsessives who just can't grasp why we don't want children

I have honestly never witnessed this in 40 years on this fine planet.. A wee bit of pisstaking of my younger brother perhaps, but that's cos he's my kid brother, not because he has chosen to be a non breeder..

Are you certain that you're not soliciting this behaviour somehow..?

Yunki I don't even know where to start with that. 🙄 😐 😯 😆 😕

It seems to completely go out of the window for many people with kids.

And is the same not true for those without kids?

And this is a problem why?

It's not. You won't hear me banging on about it. All I'm trying to do is explain the situation and why people say stupid stuff like 'oh you don't understand until you have kids'. It's not at all helpful, and doesn't get your point across either.

However I stand by my original point. Having kids IS a unique experience, in that there's nothing else like it. I'm not saying it's the best thing in the world, or that you should all do it, or that your life is incomplete otherwise, but it's definitely unique.

My wife and I now tell people we are biologically unable to have children simply because them we get sympathy rather than the usual lack of comnprehension from friends or family who have kids.

Try telling people you don't drink, and never have.

Yunki I don't even know where to start with that.

Sorry Grum.. it was a bit over the top perhaps..

your post just seemed a bit

what do we want..!?

Silence from breeders

when do we want it..?

NOW! 😆

My wife and I now tell people we are biologically unable to have children simply because them we get sympathy rather than the usual lack of comnprehension from friends or family who have kids.

You tell your friends this or just random strangers? If the former then that's incredibly callous. If the latter, why bother? Why worry about what strangers think of you?

Try telling people you don't drink, and never have.

No kids, no drinking and also not that keen on football. I am a social pariah.

This is the problem isn't it? Some people just don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that other people want to live their lives in different ways, or have had dofferent life experiences that have influenced the way they deal with stuff.
Why is is callous of me to tell someone that I fire blanks rather than that I don't want kids because I consider the childhood I had to be so horrific and to have affected my mental state to the extent that I struggle emotionally engage with others and just don't want to try and bring a child up? Why should I spare their feelings instead of mine?

Why is is callous of me to tell someone that I fire blanks rather than that I don't want kids because I consider the childhood I had to be so horrific and to have affected my mental state to the extent that I struggle emotionally engage with others and just don't want to try and bring a child up? Why should I spare their feelings instead of mine?

You've basically admitted lying to your friends and family to court sympathy from them and you ask why this is callous?

Tell them the truth. I suspect that sympathy might turn into something else completely and then you won't have to worry about them not understanding why you don't want kids.

Why should I spare their feelings instead of mine?

It's called empathy. And it's what people to whom you tell your story will be trying to display (whether misplaced or not). Sorry to hear your retrospectively introduced troubles. But it's still lying isn't it? And not exactly a "Yeah, that shirt looks great on you mate" type lie is it? Just say "I don't want kids" and leave it at that.

My wife and I now tell people we are biologically unable to have children simply because them we get sympathy rather than the usual lack of comnprehension from friends or family who have kids.

I now tell people that my wife's womb is a barren place where my seed can find no purchase.

That usually stalls any further inquiry.

And is the same not true for those without kids?

Not so much, no.

We got invited to friends for dinner last night. Their child was such a massive shit they had to ask us to leave prematurely so they could deal with it. As they were attending to a urination event in the hallway I reminded the wife that if we didn't want kids beforehand, we definitely didn't want them now 😆