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Is there any kind of solution, do you think, or this this going to rumble on forever? Haven’t been able to take a train on a Saturday (or often Weds and Thursday) for over a year now. If they’ve got approval to run driver-only, why don’t they just do this on a strike day and accept some loss of revenue from lack of ticket inspectors?
Presumably the “safety issues” will disappear if the guards are hosed down with enough money, but it’s getting really annoying. It’s even more insulting that NR still charge for tickets on strike days.
Please explain how wheelchair users get on and off trains at rural and unmanned stations.
It affects me hugely as I commute on Northern or transpennine. Luckily I can work from home if needed and a lot of people I work with also use northern so I don't get in too much bother work wise with the constant delays and strikes as everyone knows what it's like..
I support them really. I think there should be at least 2 staff on any train in case of emergency.
Please explain how wheelchair users get on and off trains at rural and unmanned stations.
I was thinking about this last night. I’ve seen wheelchair users left behind at busy stations so there needs to be a better solution than someone strolling down with a ramp.
Building the platforms six inches higher would be a start, since you always need to step up onto a train. Designing the train to extend it’s own ramp when the wheelchair user pushes a button would be even better, or put the entrance/button next to the driver’s cab.
But we're not going to be able to replace all our rolling stock or rebuild all our stations.
I know. 🙁
Many rural platforms are simple wooden structures though.
Reading Northern Rail's website they want to keep the guards as ticket inspectors but give responsibility for the doors to the drivers. Seems sensible to me, as the 30 second wait at every stop while the guard opens one door, then eventually gets around to opening the rest probably adds up over a year.
Yep it's down to the technicality of what a guard gets paid, sorry does. A ticket inspector is a pay cut isn't it?
I'm sorry but over many years the Rail unions have cried wolf so many times they need to understand they have lost a lot if not all public support. When you are faced with disruption and an unwillingness to compromise it's hard to have any sympathy with them.
Having seen the lack of interest and urgency by some of the staff on the trains when a disabled passenger appears on the train it seems that some would prefer not to have to deal with it at all, but it's a nice reason for them to jump on.
If they’ve got approval to run driver-only, why don’t they just do this on a strike day and accept some loss of revenue from lack of ticket inspectors?
Because the strike isn't just by the guards/ticket inspectors. It involves all RMT staff.
Guard/ticket inspector .. It's just semantics to me, there's generally only one of either plus one driver. And whatever staff is in the carriage has to deal with any eventuality.
Which is why I agree with the strikes.. Removing 'floor' staff and just having a driver increases risk to public safety. Especially if there's a load of piss heads on the train, or a medical incident..
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<h4>Which is why I agree with the strikes.. Removing ‘floor’ staff and just having a driver increases risk to public safety. Especially if there’s a load of piss heads on the train, or a medical incident..</h4>
Northern Rails answers
<h4>Can’t Northern just keep guards on trains and bring this dispute to an end?</h4>
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<div>We have a commitment to introduce Driver Controlled Operation on parts of the Northern network. This is why we want to have meaningful talks with RMT to explore future staffing options on trains and stations. In some areas we may choose to staff more stations and in others, it could make sense to have more customer support on trains. These are the important, constructive discussions we want to have with RMT.</div>
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<h4>Why is the RMT in dispute with Northern?</h4>
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Northern has embarked on a programme to modernise its services that will help make the North a better place in which to live and work. By 2020 Northern is committed to:
- Delivering better journeys with new and updated trains and improved station facilities
- Better customer service, with more people to help you on your journey than ever before
- Keeping you safe and secure, with more visible staff on trains and stations – day and night
Our plans include 98 new trains, 243 updated trains and the recruitment of more people from across our business:
- Our new trains are in production
- 30 of our upgraded trains are already out on the network, and
- over 450 new people have joined our team since April 2016
To bring our improvements to life, we are proposing changes to modernise the conductor role to give you a better service. We are clear there will be no job or pay cuts as a result of our proposed changes, however the RMT has entered into dispute with Northern, which has resulted in several days of strike action, so far, during 2017.
and finally
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<h4>Will Northern’s stations be as safe when you make staff changes?</h4>
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Our plans will see staff more visible and available than ever before on trains and at stations. We want to keep a second person on many of our services and, at some locations, we may choose to staff the station to give better customer support. We are investing in people and systems to make the railway even safer; for example, we now have 55 Travel Safe Officers who work on trains and at stations to help prevent and tackle anti-social behaviour.
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike/why-is-there-a-strike
So their plan is to mix up the use of staff on trains and stations to make it work more effectively, the RMT have stamped their feet and stormed off
On many trains they don't have a guard or a ticket inspector, they have methods of working to deal with that. That may include staffing stations etc. so it might mean not running with a guard to help people on and off at stations where the line is manned.
Aside from calling for backup what is the extra body on the train going to do, especially on some of the 1-2 carriage trains northern runs?
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Northern driver here!
No one wants DOO, apart from the penny pinchers. Unless you’ve read the railway rules or worked on trains you have no idea how much the guards do in any situation.
I’d get a big old pay rise if we went DOO and I’d still rather have a trained safety critical guard on board, it’s not just about tickets and getting wheelchair users on and off. There’s a logglist if other duties and knowledge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-man_operation
Well Jonny better not head to any of these places then!! I didn't realise how common it was across the world.
Good point! A lot of those are big massive countries with lots of room and investment. We have a knackered old crowded victorian railway that still uses semaphore signalling in lots of places.
Is there any kind of solution, do you think
Automated trains. Barriers at all stations. Automatic ramps for wheelchairs (only need one per train initially) will be the future
there are no trains all half term from my local station and none on a Saturday until January. There is little to no sympathy left for the strikes. This is in the SE so a slightly different case but all I see as a customer is more cost, fuller trains and crapper/slower service.
Automated trains? We’re way off that, look at class 142 which I still drive.
Current barrier at Flowery field station in Manchester, two blokes on minimum wage.ten scroats, tickets please lads?
Solution, don’t go DOO and invest in the actual railways.
Automated trains? We’re way off that, look at class 142 which I still drive.
Is that one of the the ones they are getting rid of?
Solution, don’t go DOO and invest in the actual railways.
Or go DOO doors where it's suitable to do it, like chunks of Scotland, and the UK and cities around the world. And then also invest in the network.
Current suggestion get the RMT back to the table, cut the strikes and learn to compromise and come up with a good solution.
I don't think from the ones I've been on anybody actually travels on Northern because they want to. It's because it's the only solution they have.
The exact ones they’ve been getting rid of since the early 90s.
Serms like you’ve got all the answers then. I’ll bob down and see the bosses next door now and tell them it’s all sorted.
When I or anybody go to London by train I go by virgin (for now) as the only ones I travel on are the only solution I have.
Bit like going to Bournemouth I have to use cross country, cleethorpes TPE or Norwich East Midlands. Just wish I had a choice.
Serms like you’ve got all the answers then. I’ll bob down and see the bosses next door now and tell them it’s all sorted.
Well nothing will be until talks get going
Rail union announces more strikes over guards' role
The rail union, the RMT, has announced that strikes will continue on three more Saturdays into November in its long-running dispute with Northern over the role of guards.
The company has insisted it is happy to talk, but union officials say it hasn't been prepared to negotiate about the sort of guarantees they want.
As well as not working tomorrow and next weekend, union members will also strike on the three following Saturdays through to 10 November.
Unless something has changed then nothing is going to get fixed.
From the tone of things I'm not sure how much public support and sympathy you have left, there is no clear message being got out to passengers by the RMT.
Please explain how wheelchair users get on and off trains at rural and unmanned stations.
They can't actually get onto the platform in the first place since most of the stations don't have ramp or lift access...
Removing ‘floor’ staff and just having a driver increases risk to public safety. Especially if there’s a load of piss heads on the train, or a medical incident..
The trains I get, the guard can barely move up or down the carriage to check tickets or to get to any medical incidents! It's not uncommon for the guard to be stuck half way down a carriage trying to sell a ticket when the train pulls into a station and then take 2 minutes to actually get back to the doors. Driver operated doors would solve that and allow the guard to concentrate on the passengers properly.
Strikes only work if they can either generate sympathy or enough disruption to cause major loss of business. They are just part of everyday life on the trains now which is a shame
there are lots of automated systems out there. If you only want to go 65mph then this was available since the 70s... the DLR is slow as hell but fully automatic.
The fact the UK has no transportation policy and low investment means nothing will change
Automated trains? We’re way off that, look at class 142 which I still drive.
@jonnytheleyther , is that the Hadfield line? Do you do anything on the Sheffield / Chinley / Marple line?
It is indeed on the hadfield line if you mean flowery field, I sign Marple and rose hill. Not Sheffield or chinley as it’s not my link of work.
The hadfield line is all electrified though by 323s.
Amazing how many people in the UK know better than the teachers, nurses, prison officers and train drivers. You know, people who actually do the job.
Unless something has changed then nothing is going to get fixed.
From the tone of things I’m not sure how much public support and sympathy you have left, there is no clear message being got out to passengers by the RMT.
Mike, how many trains have you taken since you moved back to the UK?
We need a second person on trains. Our infrastructure is unsuitable for driver only operation.
Mike, how many trains have you taken since you moved back to the UK?
We need a second person on trains. Our infrastructure is unsuitable for driver only operation.
Quite a lot as I don't own a car.
Second person on all trains? Or on some trains? What about the ones that are already driver operated doors in the UK? Is there a person needed per a number of carriages? If you have staffed stations do you need a second person on a 2 carriage train?
Ha!
This just affected you in the North?
We’ve been having this sort of shit from Southern Rail for ****ing decades.
#traincompaniesfranchiseshouldbecancelled
#takebackcontrolofourrailways
#stoptakingthepiss
#getbacktowork
I’ve had the “pleasant” job of listening to conversations between the driver and signaller after incidents. On a couple of occasions the poor driver is in pieces because of what he has seen. He cannot even look after himself, let alone look after the train or passengers. I’ve also been involved in an incident where the driver has died. There should always be a guard IMO to look after the passengers.
DOO in this country was introduced when passenger numbers were declining badly. Record numbers travel on trains today. The current “fix” is for cameras mounted on trains which the ORR said was the cheap fix and best solution was for cameras and monitors mounted on platforms (which has been ignored).
I assume the RMT have published their list of criteria where they would allow driver operated doors with a) guard b) ticket collector c) nobody. And what equipment and back up they would need to do that?
We’ve been having this sort of shit from Southern Rail for **** decades.
I love the complaints from Londoners about trains. Southern are far from perfect but when I'm in London, I tap a card on a reader and roughly every 12-15 minutes, eight carriages of train turn up and I travel to my destination.
On Northern Rail, I have to queue up and buy a paper ticket (which by the way costs more than London prices!) and then two (or four if you're lucky) rickety carriages of 1980's Pacer turn up somewhere vaguely approaching the time advertised. But no more than every half hour. Once an hour at weekends if it's a good service, once every 90 minutes otherwise.
Honestly, you have it easy in the South! Come and travel into Manchester for a few days and you'll be begging to be back on a Southern train with it's wifi and aircon!
#halftermholidays
#kidsoffschoolemployeesneedtimeofftolookafterthierkids
#plentyofpeoplewouldlikeyourjob
#easylife
#pension
#30dayssickleaveayear
Eh?
Public transport has been pimped out to the highest bidder, services have been cut, assaults are at the highest level ever and you're telling people to get back to work?
No.
If it's such an easy job, you do it.
Second person on all trains?
Yes. Public transport should be run for the benefit of the public, not the shareholders.
Quite a lot as I don’t own a car.
Go on then....
Yes. Public transport should be run for the benefit of the public, not the shareholders.
Right best define the role and responsibilities of person 2 then so we know who to recruit. Will the RMT discuss that?
Go on then….
Long and short distance, use norther into the peaks when they run on weekends, fair bit of mainline and transpennine along with the stuff local to Manchester for work. That and on the tram most days.
Public transport should be run efficiently and effectively. It should not be a job creation scheme as if that is needed we could deliver more services with that money. P
If the rmt want people onside they need to start saying what is acceptable, back it with evidence and get some pr people in.
I love the complaints from Londoners about trains. Southern are far from perfect but when I’m in London,
Don’t confuse trains in London with those goon in and out of the city. l live near that London and there is a train every 30 min apart from a few hours in the middle of the day where they are once per hour. This is apparently a high value commuter line
Trains can have 6, 8, 10 or 12 cars but for most stations a max of 8 will open which is fantastic during rush hour.
the journey used to take 60 min on the slam door trains but now takes 80 on the new ones and a cheap day return (paper ticket) costs £39. It’s now got to the point it is cheaper to live or stay in town than commuting.
decades of underinvestment across the network has left this mess
Second person on all trains? Or on some trains? What about the ones that are already driver operated doors in the UK? Is there a person needed per a number of carriages? If you have staffed stations do you need a second person on a 2 carriage train?
Yes on all trains. It’s nothing to do with how many carriages there are. There is an encyclopaedia of rules rail workers have to learn, some need more knowledge than others, but the role of a safety critical guard on the train is crucial. There is a huge difference between this and a ticket seller and that is the main argument.
For example: I’m doing 100mph and a kids put a paving slab on the rail, I derail and knock myself clean out.
Not a busy train, say 80 people on. If there’s a safety critical guard on, he knows everything what to do, GSMR calls, location, safety comms, protecting the line and what line it is, whether detonators and protection is needed on the other line. Nearest signal, controlling signaller, egress of the customers and how to evacuate and in which of the three evacuations he reports.
A ticket inspector-a lot of people would die. I guarantee it.
Right best define the role and responsibilities of person 2 then so we know who to recruit. Will the RMT discuss that?
What's wrong with the current definition? Why do you think these people are unecessary?
Long and short distance, use norther into the peaks when they run on weekends, fair bit of mainline and transpennine along with the stuff local to Manchester for work. That and on the tram most days.
So you live on the tram network and get the train somewhere nice to ride your bike at the weekend? For about a year?
If the rmt want people onside they need to start saying what is acceptable, back it with evidence and get some pr people in.
Everyone knows what's 'acceptable'. Decent, safe trains that provide a proper service.
The RMT are not the people who are standing in the way of this being achievable.
The new class 777 trains for merseyrail are having automatic ramps fitted . platforms altered to accept the new ramps and DOO on all trains with additional staff on some trains.
Problem is a lot of stations dont have flat or lift access to platforms, so disabled may be left on platforms after alighting, then theres the problem if something goes wrong. can a driver on their own cope, even though theyll get a pay rise.
as for pacers they where going to be scrapped , but now the leasing company has revamped one with retention toilet, ramps, fancy handrails and other stuff to let them stay in service.
There is a huge difference between this and a ticket seller and that is the main argument.
Well it's being implemented very differently across the UK so far. None of those things you mentioned were to do with infrastructure which was the first objection. This is a serious point the amount of mixed messages and reasons of anything but how it is makes it really hard to follow.
Also which of the northern services gets anywhere near 100mph?
So you live on the tram network and get the train somewhere nice to ride your bike at the weekend? For about a year?
Bad summary there, what is the qualifying period to comment? Plenty of early morning and evening northern services in there too. Just grateful I don't have to rely on them that much.
Maybe that’s because you’re reading and believing what the press says and making your mind up, rather than being in meetings and speaking to union members.
100mph 319 to Crewe. The 323s are limited to 90mph on the Crewe and stoke lines though, but you knew that already.
Im assuming you know all the line speeds on the routes you travel? Because the livery of the train doesn’t dictate the speed of it.
You’re 100% correct project.
For the RMT argument to be compelling then more of the details given by Jonny need to be explained and how other countries operate systems safely and where our system falls short.
100mph 319 to Crewe. The 323s are limited to 90mph on the Crewe and stoke lines though, but you knew that already.
Im assuming you know all the line speeds on the routes you travel? Because the livery of the train doesn’t dictate the speed of it.
Nope, my experience is limited to the tin cans rattling around Manchester to Sheff, and Stockport way. Just amazed some of them would hold together at that speed.
For the RMT argument to be compelling then more of the details given by Jonny need to be explained and how other countries operate systems safely and where our system falls short.
Exactly, a solid position needs to be put forward for the criteria for each thing to be possible almost some sort of independent body who could do that impartially with both sides respecting the results.
and to pick up on a point
Amazing how many people in the UK know better than the teachers, nurses, prison officers and train drivers. You know, people who actually do the job.
I'd expect those people to be able to do their job, I would not expect them to all be able to define the roles and responsibility of their own jobs and their colleagues. I wouldn't expect a lot of them to be able to run a service at the macro level either. Different skill sets mostly along with experience.
I’d expect those people to be able to do their job, I would not expect them to all be able to define the roles and responsibility of their own jobs and their colleagues.
Who else would be better qualified to do so?
Who else would be better qualified to do so?
Plenty of people, we actually have experts in this sort of thing who specialise in it, mostly because a lot of people manage to look at what they can see and make decisions based on that. They take historic precedent and it's always been done like this on board and work with the ideas the people who trained them had. It's quite hard sometimes to step back from your job and look at the role and how it integrates into the process going on around you. Something as simple as who opens and closes the doors has plenty of reasons people can use to justify if they do or don't do that. How many of them are right, currently valid or just something that has always been done is hard to do from the person doing the job.
What qualifications do you think are required to design a job role and define responsibilities and the interactions with various new safety systems that are available now?
and to add that safety stat includes Driver Operated and One man services too
Amazing how many people in the UK know better than the teachers, nurses, prison officers and train drivers. You know, people who actually do the job.
Other than prison officers the s the other three deliver a service to the general public. Unlike any other service that you pay for in this instance you have no control over the cost or the quality of the service and have no alternate provider. As a public service people who care about them take on some kind of ownership and feel they should have a say.