The sex binary is a red herring however...
..in most animals, an organism’s biological sex corresponds to one of two distinct types of reproductive anatomy that develop for the production of small or large sex cells—sperm and eggs, respectively—and associated biological functions in sexual reproduction.
The evolutionary function of these two anatomies is to aid in reproduction via the fusion of sperm and ova. No third type of sex cell exists in humans, and therefore there is no sex “spectrum” or additional sexes beyond male and female...
...however, underlying this definition there is a range of anatomies and physiologies. Often misinterpreted as additional sexes.
How would you know if it’s ambiguous?
Think before you type? Though that is a bit pot and kettle!
Modern medical science has many tools to investigate and clarify the initial macro level ambiguity.
It's estimated that 1.7% of people are intersex. In the UK that equates to 1.13 million people.
No third type of sex cell exists in humans, and therefore there is no sex “spectrum” or additional sexes beyond male and female…
I'm a bit ignorant but what is a sex cell?
Anyway, these 1.13 million people who fail to fall into a convenient sex classification. Are you saying that each and every one of these people possess enough male or female characteristics to be clearly identifiable as one or the other?
And therefore there is no need to classify people as intersex?
In yes, how do you continue to argue that biological sex is a binary thing?
these are your words, I said I was happy to accept it, My point is you cannot change the biological trait even if there are 10 of them, I am sure it is possible the Dr's may assign you the wrong sex, but that is a medical mistake. when they learn how to classify it correctly they won't make those mistakes,but they won't be able to change whatever sex is determined by the persons DNA> (or maybe not bother assigning a sex at all.)
Also the gene editing thing makes minor changes to your biology, your sex controls 1/6th of your organs and a big part of your appearance.
I said many pages back, I am sure one day they will be able to edit your dna and change your sex, but even in the case of the caterpillar/butterfly whose cells break down into a goo, the dna builds them the same sex as they were before metamorphosis. It currently is not possible to change biological sex.
It’s estimated that 1.7%
This is an incorrect and oft quoted fallacy. Over 99.98% of babies are observed (correctly) as male or female at birth. The remainder undergo more detailed assessment and fall into male or female (according to my medical colleagues that specialise in such things). The classification isn't a convenience...
An example - a child with 5-ARD can have poorly developed external genitals at birth, the sex cannot be confidently observed. Detailed examination would show that this child has 46XY (male chromosomes) and internal testes. Therefore male.
Intersex is an outdated term, it carries a false implication. We now use difference or variance in sexual development. These individuals often carry the problem(s) thoughout their life as medical science can only do so much to repair some of the issues.
Male sex cell - male gamete - sperm, female sex cell - female gamete - egg/ova.
Male sex cell – male gamete – sperm, female sex cell – female gamete – egg/ova.
Can you change one into the other?
Can you change one into the other?
Ha, ha, ha.
You know the answer is no.
You know the answer is no
just checking..
This is an incorrect and oft quoted fallacy. Over 99.98% of babies are observed (correctly) as male or female at birth.
0.02% to 0.05% have non-definitive external genitalia at birth. That is absolutely not the total number of people who would be classed as intersex. In most cases it only becomes apparent later in life.
Intersex is an outdated term, it carries a false implication. We now use difference or variance in sexual development.
Intersex isn't an outdated term. I don't know where you are getting that from. I think you're thinking of hemaphrodite.
DSD (Disorders in Sexual Developent) is an outdated term which is probably why it was changed to Differences. Even Differences is controversial because it still suggests a problem rather than just the way someone is.
Male sex cell – male gamete – sperm, female sex cell – female gamete – egg/ova.
How do you classify a woman with female external genitalia but testes instead of ovaries. Likewise for a man with ovaries?
Because the vast majority of public toilets are binary.
Therefore, a person with male sex organ should use male public toilet until such time as there is a sign on the toilet door says otherwise.
What if a transman consider himself a lesbian?
The troll is here. I'm out.
@brucewee The number is ~0.018% Females with PCOS that only becomes apparent later in life are females.
Fausto Sterling is nonsense.
That's why I also used variance. The wording changes and yes, it is so difficult to find more neutral terminology. Intersex is so last century.
A person with ovaries containing eggs (that developed from week nine post-conception whilst they were an embryo/foetus in their mother's womb) would be female.
The 5-ARD example is effectively a person with at first sight apparently non-male genitalia and testes. A male.
The number is ~0.018%
The number that have ambiguous genitalia at birth? Yes, that sounds about right.
And yes, the medical world has come up with definitions to cram the rest of the 1.7% into the male or female category.
You are aware that these definitions were created by medical practitioners (ie human beings) and not God? I know doctors often struggle to tell the difference but still...
And if these sex classifications are infallible, why are the rates of gender dysphoria so much higher amongst intersex people than the general population?
I do like the fact that someone who intentionally refers to transmen when they mean transwomen sees no irony in calling my terms last century. I think I'll stick with InterACT and the various other Intersex groups rather than someone who is dancing on the line of hate speech, thanks.
I'm bowing out for a little while because Reasons outside of STW (not least "I'm prepping for holiday" and "I haven't eaten in 20 hours,") but I'll just leave this here for your consideration.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/it-hurts-it-really-bloody-hurts/
transmen when they mean transwomen
He did not, it was just your expectation and misreading, when he said transmen, he meant female sex that have taken male gender.
The (my) medical world finds categorization very useful in assessing likely prognosis, risks of disease etc. These assessments are under continuous evaluation as to appropriateness and accuracy. They are observations of the natural world.
Both GIDS and WPATH noted that karotype distribution was in line with a matched population. However, it would not be surprising that people with more fundamental problems have dysphoric issues.
I did mean females, the term trans(gender) identifying females a.k.a. transmen could be seen as problematic however, I have endeavoured in this thread to clearly distinguish between sex and gender terminology.
This confusion of 'meaning' is unhelpful.
The (my) medical world finds categorization very useful
For sure, though one thing I think is great about the idea of non-binary for gender is that it demedicalises the issue making it one of social understanding and respect for all of us (ie using the correct pronouns now and then etc).
This has to be better than framing it as a medical matter, with doctors responsible for diagnosis and then psychiatric/drug/surgical intervention (effectively to put people into socially sanctioned categories). What actual bits people have is firmly in the category 'none of my business'.
Ah ok. Let me get this straight.
You want to have an Open bathroom that anyone can use and a Women's bathroom that transwomen aren't allowed to use but transmen are?
And the intersex people are allowed to use the women's bathroom provided the classification they were given at birth says 'Female' regardless of how they actually identify?
And this is all in the name of protecting women (sorry, Females)?
I mean, when you read it back doesn't it sound crazy?
The (my) medical world finds categorization very useful in assessing likely prognosis, risks of disease etc.
And do you understand that insisting that biological sex trumps self identified gender in day to day life for no apparent reason is very insulting to transgender people?
Because honestly, all I've seen from you is a ridiculous impractical suggestion that would result in transwomen being assaulted more often than they are at the moment and an insistence that there are only two biological sexes since most intersex people can be classified as male or female with 'variations'. It seems like you are using biological sex and it's 'immutable binary' state to justify your prejudices.
If you don't believe that being transgender is a 'real thing' it would be good to know that now. Not much point in discussing toilet etiquette with someone if their underlying belief is that transgender identity isn't legitimate.
There's one non-binary person in our lab.
One of my colleagues is actually a specialist in hormone cancers in trans-patients. Her recent study here -
A lot of the students in work give their preferred gender/title at the end of their emails etc
To many people its not a big deal, to some it still is, but things change, culture and societies are dynamic, they evolve and change.
I mean, when you read it back doesn’t it sound crazy?
Single sex, female only provision.
As for your latter post, my transgender acquaintances, although they wish it were otherwise, accept that they remain in their original sexed bodies whilst living the best life they can in/with their gender identity.
Accommodations need to be made for all, transgender or not whilst protecting the vulnerable.
And do you understand that insisting that biological sex trumps self identified gender in day to day life for no apparent reason is very insulting to transgender people?
So the Drs should just offer xervical screening to everyone? The paper above shows 50 odd% of Transmen do not go to cervical screening when they should, thats a terrible uptake.
I think you are over reacting.
Clarkpm4242 is adding useful scientific info, I cant see any hate or prejudice.
He has supported gender non binary.
The issue here is you conflating gender and sex, again.
Clarkpm4242 is adding useful scientific info, I cant see any hate or prejudice.
No, he's pretending that science backs up his prejudices (even though some of his best acquaintances are transgender).
I couldn't help but notice he didn't answer my key question so I'll ask you as well.
Is your underlying belief is that transgender identity isn’t legitimate?
Is your underlying belief is that transgender identity isn’t legitimate?
No.
Gender is a construct, how people express their gender is not something that can even be considered legitimate or not. Its like saying the your preference for blue riding gloves is not legitimate. Its not something that can have any judgement on it.
Note he did answer your question.
remain in their original sexed bodies whilst living the best life they can in/with their gender identity.
Accommodations need to be made for all, transgender or not whilst protecting the vulnerable
What about this denies transgender legitmacy, it explicitly supports it.
How do you classify a woman with female external genitalia but testes instead of ovaries. Likewise for a man with ovaries?
Klinefelter syndrome or XXY is male
XYY is male
polysomy X and/or Y is abnormal male
X or turners syndrome is abnormal female
polysomy X is abnormal female
Swyer syndrome XY is abnormal female (have gonads not ovaries or testes. Don't make estrogen or progesterone so no breasts, uterus or menstrual cycle.
CAIS (XY) are born phenotypically female but lack uterus, ovaries and fallopian tubes. Testes can be located internally. Vagina tends to be 1/2 the size.
Gender is a construct, how people express their gender is not something that can even be considered legitimate or not. Its like saying the your preference for blue riding gloves is not legitimate. Its not something that can have any judgement on it.
So you believe that gender identity that differs from the sex you're born with is entirely down to experiences? People aren't born in the wrong bodies, their environment makes them transgender?
What about this denys transgender legitmacy, it explicitly supports it.
Someone on this thread has already described outcome of transwomen using the Male bathroom from their own experience. You both seem to have ignored these experiences because the 'immutable binary' sex classification must come first in the name of protecting cisgender women from hypothetical danger.
I would be interested in hearing clarkpm4242's transgender acquaintances reactions when he told them about his plan to have cisgender women and transmen use the Women's bathroom while transwomen are banished to the Open (not the Men's, that's a very important point) bathroom.
Depends on your definition of 'all' really. There's plenty of folk who would throw vulnerable group A under the bus to protect vulnerable group B. Which is what I've been arguing against all along, we can help look out for and respect both.
Note he did answer your question.
Out of interest, have we established that the good doctor is a he, or assumed it?
Makes you think.
Swyer syndrome XY is abnormal female
Is that not the XY46 case our A&E doctor was asserting was biologically male?
Klinefelter syndrome or XXY is male
XYY is male
polysomy X and/or Y is abnormal male
X or turners syndrome is abnormal female
polysomy X is abnormal female
Swyer syndrome XY is abnormal female (have gonads not ovaries or testes. Don’t make estrogen or progesterone so no breasts, uterus or menstrual cycle.
CAIS (XY) are born phenotypically female but lack uterus, ovaries and fallopian tubes. Testes can be located internally. Vagina tends to be 1/2 the size.
While there is nothing factually incorrect about what you posted, it doesn't answer the point I was making earlier which is that biological sex is not binary.
The medical community has made it binary by assigning male or female to the various manifestations of intersex but just because the medical community said it (unless you want to try to argue that the medical community is 100% free from prejudice) these were labels added by people who were desperate to maintain the facade that biological sex can only ever come in two flavours. If you don't entirely conform to one or the other, don't worry. we'll cram you in somehow.
unless you want to try to argue that the medical community is 100% free from prejudice
And how are we defining "the medical community" here? All of them? That's a lot of people.
With (sincerely) the greatest of respect and I apologise in advance if I'm wrong, I wouldn't have thought that sex and gender assignment was a primary calling in A&E. "I've fallen off a roof and now I'm a girl!" What you've got there isn't ambiguous gonads or a requirement for DNA sampling, it's concussion.
And how are we defining “the medical community” here?
With (sincerely) the greatest of respect and I apologise in advance if I’m wrong, I wouldn’t have thought that sex and gender assignment was a primary calling in A&E. “I’ve fallen off a roof and now I’m a girl!” What you’ve got there isn’t ambiguous gonads or a requirement for DNA sampling, it’s concussion.
I understood the first part, I have no idea what you're saying in the second part.
My point is that it seems to be very important to some people that there are only two biological sexes.
'But what about intersex people?', we say.
'Well,' says the medical community, 'every time we find a variation of intersex we assign it a sex. So you see, there is only biological male and biological female because anything that wasn't entirely male or entirely female we assigned them a biological sex so now there are still only two biological sexes with 'variations'.
But being transgender suggests that the biological sex might not be a simple binary and therefore it is WRONG.
I have no idea what you’re saying in the second part.
I'm trying to politely and respectfully question whether an A&E doctor is qualified to present as an authority on this particular topic.
Probably they are, relatively, they're almost certainly more knowledgeable than I am.
So you believe that gender identity that differs from the sex you’re born with is entirely down to experiences? People aren’t born in the wrong bodies, their environment makes them transgender
I did not say that. You are making things up.
immutable binary’
Neither of used this phrase, you are making things up.
while transwomen are banished to the Open (not the Men’s, that’s a very important point) bathroom.
He did not say that you are making that up.
I have realized Bruce that we are responding to your misreadings, innaccurate conflations and hyperbole. So unless you improve ypur aim, I wont bother responding to you again.
I’m trying to politely and respectfully question whether an A&E doctor is qualified to present as an authority on this particular topic.
The authority status is your assumption, its not relavent. He is presenting his 'facts' if you disagree present the evidence to show he is wrong? I mean nobody has questioned your status. If you just beleive/or disbelieve purely based on status you will get gaslighted. I keep looking up the stuff he mentions to check, and if correct to check I understand.
I did not say that. You are making things up.
It was a question not a statement.
Neither of used this phrase, you are making things up.
The crux of the argument seems to come down to the assertion that there are two and only two biological sexes and this does not change. That's what I mean by immutably binary. If this is somehow not what you've been saying I'd love to hear how.
He did not say that you are making that up.
I gave my long handed analysis of what you two meant and neither one of you corrected it. Now you have a problem with the short hand version?
That's an awful lot of calling me a liar without explaining how I'm factually wrong in what I've said. Please correct me or just answer my questions.
I have realized Bruce that we are responding to your misreadings, innaccurate conflations and hyperbole. So unless you improve ypur aim, I wont bother responding to you again.
If you don't want to respond that's fine. I hope you do because I genuinely don't understand where you are coming from and I want to understand.
The question of legitimacy is crucial so let me phrase it. Do you believe that transwomen
are real women entitled to the same rights and protections (I'm focusing on transwomen because that seems to be where most of the conflict in this comes in) or are they opting into their womenhood and therefore not entitled to all the rights as cisgender women?
You may note I've offloaded some 'blame' for any inaccurracies to more expert colleages in clinical specialties. Actually ex-colleagues as I wouldn't be engaging in any of this dialogue if I was still working with patients.
Swyer syndrome is a good example of how science/medicine works, extremely rare however, when it becomes apparent, usually around puberty the most likely outcome is that female hormone treatment is given. The almost non-existent (a.k.a streak) gonads have ambiguous structure. There is a much greater risk of cancer! SRY (or sex chromosome) mutations are not the main cause of Swyer. The most frequent (known) cause are mutations in a gene involved in the male development pathway, but it has links to ovarian differentiation too (the last two sentences are from experts). They don't get hung up on the (fe)male question as it really isn't in the best interests of the patient and treat the person they are presented with to get the best outcome.
Humans still only produce male or female sex cells (gametes) in the process of sexual reproduction.
As someone neatly put it, sex is biologically determined and gender is a societal construct.
They are not like for like attributes and observing that you are biologically male or female at birth does *not* restrict any gender identity in later life. People with differences in *sexual* development (or appropriate label) therefore don't need to be used validate gender identities.
It also does not demean the importance of gender/identity/personality. We are who we are, a whole range of genders/personalities/identities. The learned stereotyping is a real problem.
I am attempting to disengage from this thread as we are getting quite 'circular' and am conscious of how attempts at clear statements of the best known/current scientific positions can be quite upsetting to other readers (doubt there are any lurkers).
I need to read the 'everesting tips' thread on the Bike forum (probably a good indication of my sanity).
I don’t feel British anymore.
Sure ,all the bits of paper say that I am , I get spoken to in English when I’m abroad and I certainly sound British.
In realty I want nothing to do with the ****wits that are prevalent in this country at the moment, I can’t identify with their thinking.
Not sure what nationality I feel like, so just let me be me.
Bruce, I'm repeating myself, you came late to the conversation, if you want to know my feelings in detail read the thread from page 7, see my interactions with boriselbrus and others.
As someone neatly put it, sex is biologically determined and gender is a societal construct.
Thanks that was me.
The question of who to allow in which toilets is important but also moot since you can't enforce it. Are you planning to submit everyone to an inspection in entry? Or are you going to have to register everyone with biological status on an ID card to be checked on entry, with biometrics?
Vulnerable people need protection (not just women) so we need a better solution. Banning trans women from going into women's toilets is stupid, unworkable, ineffective and only serves to harm people who are also vulnerable. I mean, we're worried about women being victims of abuse in toilets, but we apparently don't give a crap about trans women being victims?
As someone neatly put it, sex is biologically determined and gender is a societal construct.
And like so many things that seem to boil everything down to neat packages it is at best incomplete and at worst completely wrong.
Sex is biological reality and gender is a societal construct and never the twain shall meet CANNOT be stated as undisputed truth.
For this next part I'm going to do my best not to sound like Jordan Peterson so here goes. There seem to be differences between male and female brains.
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html
It also seems that these differences in brains cause differences in behavior.
Now, it's entirely possible that the brain differences have no discernible effect on self image but you cannot state for a fact that it doesn't.
We have already seen that intersex people can present a mixture of male and female characteristics so why is it inconceivable that someone could have an entirely male body with a female brain?
You are entitled to say, 'In my opinion sex is biologically determined and gender is a societal construct.'
You are not entitled to say, 'It is a fact that sex is biologically determined and gender is a societal construct' until the research becomes far more conclusive.
Banning trans women from going into women’s toilets is stupid, unworkable, ineffective and only serves to harm people who are also vulnerable
Agree, the option of "another" space seems to offer solutions, but it's a mirage.
